The allegory of the 2 laws with Abraham’s 2 wives

[Beckworth]

The Allegory of the old Jewish law and New law of Christ with Haggar and Sarah.
Galations 4:21-31
Paul starts out by saying that Abraham had 2 sons—one (Ishmael) by a bondwoman (Haggar) and another (Issac) by a free woman (Sarah). Sarah was Abraham’s wife. She was born free. But Sarah could not have children so, as the custom was in those days, she gave Abraham her servant as a wife so she could bear children for Abraham. Those children would be Sarah’s children because Haggar was Sarah’s servant. Sarah sought to have children by Haggar her servant maid. Hagar was like a surrogate mother for Sarah.
God had promised Abraham a son by Sarah, but it was taking a long time. I don’t know if Sarah didn’t believe God ( we know she laughed) or else she was trying to help God along. For this reason, Issac was called the “son of promise” because he had been promised by God. Ishmael, on the other hand was born by natural means of the flesh.
Now, right here, verse 24, Paul says these things are SYMBOLIC representing 2 covenants ( or laws). One of the covenants ( laws) had been given on Mt. Sinai by Moses. We know this to be the old Jewish law, including the 10 commandments., given by Moses. He says THIS represents Haggar—in fact he says, HAGAR IS MOUNT SINAI. and this law gives birth to bondage and it corresponds to Jerusalem which now is and in bondage. He’s talking about the Jewish people who still.are trying to be saved by keeping the old law; they have not been converted to Christ.

In verse 28- He says “we” (Christian’s) are like Issac—we are children of promise. And just like Ishmael persecuted Issac (see Genesis 21) so the Jews who are the children of the flesh, are still persecuting the children of promise today.

He says WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE SAY? It says, CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,; remember, in the beginning of this story he says he is talking about 2 laws or covenants. It’s SYMBOLIC. So the point he is really making is, “ cast out that old law”. He further says, we are not children of the BONDWOMAN ( the old Jewish law) but children of the free.(new law of Christ).

Stand fast, therefore, in the LIBERTY by which Christ has made us free. And do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Some of those Jewish Christians were still holding on to some of the laws in the old law. Paul tells them—don’t go back to that!! Christian’s today, beware. Trying to hold on to and obey the commandments in the old Jewish law, like keeping the 7th day and tithing, and keeping the 10 commandments, will cause you to “fall from grace Gal. 5:4

Let’s learn how to “rightly divide the word of God.” 2Tim. 2:15.

 

[Seeker47]

I respect what you have written. This obviously has taken considerable time and effort.

I believe there is significant point that is overlooked in your post. Paul is not writing about Torah, given by God on Sinai. He is instead talking about the perversion of the law that had become the standard of Jewish worship, the Halakah. In the very first sentence of your quoted passage Paul is asking if the new converts to Yeshua have not heard the Torah. Yeshua was also severely critical of this man-made body of false teaching during his earthly mission.

Neither Christ nor Paul ever urged casting out the Torah. They did urge believers to cast out the false traditions that had so polluted Jewish worship at that time.

Jesus stated in his most famous sermon, that he did not come to change even the smallest letter of Torah, but came to bring those laws to completion. (Matthew 5:17-19) Indeed, Paul made that same point repeatedly in Romans. He bluntly states that by faith we uphold the Torah. (Romans3:31)

The separation of Haggar's children from Isaac's was not a separation of Jews from Christians. It was a separation of God's people from all others.

Hopefully, not too many people agree that we should stop keeping the Ten Commandments.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

What about Keturah, Abraham's wife after Sarah died?
Some believe she was Hagar.
But as a wife, she was also a free woman.
What Law abides with her?


Keturah is called wife
Genesis 25:1 And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah
Genesis 25:2 And she bore him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

Keturah is called concubine [why many think she is actually Hagar]
1 Chronicles 1:32 And the sons of Keturah, Abraham's concubine: she bore Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

 

[Beckworth]

What about Keturah, Abraham's wife after Sarah died?
Some believe she was Hagar.
But as a wife, she was also a free woman.
What Law abides with her?


Keturah is called wife
Genesis 25:1 And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah
Genesis 25:2 And she bore him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

Keturah is called concubine [why many think she is actually Hagar]
1 Chronicles 1:32 And the sons of Keturah, Abraham's concubine: she bore Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

I can only tell you what the Bible says and Keturah is not in the allegory in Galations 4. The story of Hagar and Sarah is in chapter 21. Sarah dies in chapter 22. Hagar left back in chapter 21. Keturah does not appear on the scene until chapter 25. The allegory is only about the first 2 wives and their children. And it is really talking about how the old law has been done away and how the law of the promised Son( symbolic for Christ) is better. It also serves to warn the Jewish Christians not to try to keep the law of Moses now that they are under the law of Christ.
It’s a mistake to try to put more into this allegory than what the Holy Spirit has put there. Every thing else is speculation.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I can only tell you what the Bible says and Keturah is not in the allegory in Galations 4. The story of Hagar and Sarah is in chapter 21. Sarah dies in chapter 22. Hagar left back in chapter 21. Keturah does not appear on the scene until chapter 25. The allegory is only about the first 2 wives and their children. And it is really talking about how the old law has been done away and how the law of the promised Son( symbolic for Christ) is better. It also serves to warn the Jewish Christians not to try to keep the law of Moses now that they are under the law of Christ.
It’s a mistake to try to put more into this allegory than what the Holy Spirit has put there. Every thing else is speculation.

Galatians has a specific purpose so Amen

 

[Soyeong]

The Allegory of the old Jewish law and New law of Christ with Haggar and Sarah.
Galations 4:21-31
Paul starts out by saying that Abraham had 2 sons—one (Ishmael) by a bondwoman (Haggar) and another (Issac) by a free woman (Sarah). Sarah was Abraham’s wife. She was born free. But Sarah could not have children so, as the custom was in those days, she gave Abraham her servant as a wife so she could bear children for Abraham. Those children would be Sarah’s children because Haggar was Sarah’s servant. Sarah sought to have children by Haggar her servant maid. Hagar was like a surrogate mother for Sarah.
God had promised Abraham a son by Sarah, but it was taking a long time. I don’t know if Sarah didn’t believe God ( we know she laughed) or else she was trying to help God along. For this reason, Issac was called the “son of promise” because he had been promised by God. Ishmael, on the other hand was born by natural means of the flesh.
Now, right here, verse 24, Paul says these things are SYMBOLIC representing 2 covenants ( or laws). One of the covenants ( laws) had been given on Mt. Sinai by Moses. We know this to be the old Jewish law, including the 10 commandments., given by Moses. He says THIS represents Haggar—in fact he says, HAGAR IS MOUNT SINAI. and this law gives birth to bondage and it corresponds to Jerusalem which now is and in bondage. He’s talking about the Jewish people who still.are trying to be saved by keeping the old law; they have not been converted to Christ.

In verse 28- He says “we” (Christian’s) are like Issac—we are children of promise. And just like Ishmael persecuted Issac (see Genesis 21) so the Jews who are the children of the flesh, are still persecuting the children of promise today.

He says WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE SAY? It says, CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,; remember, in the beginning of this story he says he is talking about 2 laws or covenants. It’s SYMBOLIC. So the point he is really making is, “ cast out that old law”. He further says, we are not children of the BONDWOMAN ( the old Jewish law) but children of the free.(new law of Christ).

Stand fast, therefore, in the LIBERTY by which Christ has made us free. And do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Some of those Jewish Christians were still holding on to some of the laws in the old law. Paul tells them—don’t go back to that!! Christian’s today, beware. Trying to hold on to and obey the commandments in the old Jewish law, like keeping the 7th day and tithing, and keeping the 10 commandments, will cause you to “fall from grace Gal. 5:4

Let’s learn how to “rightly divide the word of God.” 2Tim. 2:15.

If God saved the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free, which completely undermines how you are trying to use that passage. In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in bondage while the truth sets us free. Christ is the word of God made flesh, so it is absurd to think that He frees us from the word of God instead of leading us to embody it. Furthermore, the Mosaic Law was given through the line of the line of the free woman, not the line of the bondwoman, so you are wrongly dividing the word of God by not correctly identifying what Paul was speaking against.

in Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Furthermore, Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to embody the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so it is absurd to think that the Law of Christ is something other than or contrary to what Christ taught and it is also absurd for you to interpret Galatians as speaking against following Christ.

 

[Beckworth]

I respect what you have written. This obviously has taken considerable time and effort.

I believe there is significant point that is overlooked in your post. Paul is not writing about Torah, given by God on Sinai. He is instead talking about the perversion of the law that had become the standard of Jewish worship, the Halakah. In the very first sentence of your quoted passage Paul is asking if the new converts to Yeshua have not heard the Torah. Yeshua was also severely critical of this man-made body of false teaching during his earthly mission.

Neither Christ nor Paul ever urged casting out the Torah. They did urge believers to cast out the false traditions that had so polluted Jewish worship at that time.

Jesus stated in his most famous sermon, that he did not come to change even the smallest letter of Torah, but came to bring those laws to completion. (Matthew 5:17-19) Indeed, Paul made that same point repeatedly in Romans. He bluntly states that by faith we uphold the Torah. (Romans3:31)

The separation of Haggar's children from Isaac's was not a separation of Jews from Christians. It was a separation of God's people from all others.

Hopefully, not too many people agree that we should stop keeping the Ten Commandments.

Sorry. But the text speaks for itself. Paul begins by addressing the problem—those who desire to keep the old Jewish law -verse 21. These were Jews who had been converted to Christianity but like many Christians today, still wanted to keep and practice the law of Moses given at Mt. Sinai. Paul addresses this problem beginning in chapter 1. Here are some of the things he says.
Chapter 1- He starts out saying…-
Verse 6- I am amazed that you are TURNING AWAY so soon from Christ to ANOTHER gospel , which is a PERVERTED gospel
Chapter 2
Verse 4- false brethren came in by stealth “to spy out our LIBERTY, which we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into bondage. What is he talking about?? He’s talking about CIRCUMCISION . See verse 3. These “false “ brethren were trying to “BIND” circumcision on Christian’s. Circumcision was part of the old Jewish law. This was the problem.
Verse 16- Paul said “we KNOW that a man is NOT justified (saved) by the works of the ( old Jewish law) law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. . That we might be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by the works of the law, for by the works of the law NO flesh shall be justified (saved).
Chapter 3
Verse 2- did you receive the Spirit by the WORKS of the law or by the hearing of faith?
Verse 10- for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse…
Verse 11- but that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for the just shall live by faith but the (old Jewish) law is not of faith.
Verse 13- Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the (old Jewish) law.
Verse 19- what purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions TIL THE SEED (CHRIST) should come.
Verse 24- the (old) law was out TUTOR TO BRING US TO CHRIST that we might be justified by faith. But after “faith” HAS COME, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A TUTOR.” It doesn’t get any plainer than that! we are no longer under the old Jewish law of Moses given on Mt Sinai. And that includes the 10 commandments. But not to worry—all of the 10 commandments except keeping the 7th day holy is given in the new law of faith brought by Jesus Christ. 3 of them in this book in chapter 5: 19-21.

It’s very clear from the context of the whole book , Paul is talking about the WORKS, practices, of the old law including circumcision and the Jewish feast days in verse 10 chapter 4. These are obviously things they are doing (works) as he said over and over. The whole book from chapter 1-5 is about 1 problem and he tells what it is in chapter 4 verse 21–THose WHO DESIRE TO BE UNDER THE OLD JEWISH LAW . We don’t have to guess what he is talking about.

 

[Beckworth]

If God saved the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free, which completely undermines how you are trying to use that passage. In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in bondage while the truth sets us free. Christ is the word of God made flesh, so it is absurd to think that He frees us from the word of God instead of leading us to embody it. Furthermore, the Mosaic Law was given through the line of the line of the free woman, not the line of the bondwoman, so you are wrongly dividing the word of God by not correctly identifying what Paul was speaking against.

in Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Furthermore, Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to embody the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so it is absurd to think that the Law of Christ is something other than or contrary to what Christ taught and it is also absurd for you to interpret Galatians as speaking against following Christ.

I can only tell you what the scriptures say. I have quoted them most times word for word. If you don’t like the message of Paul in this book , you will have to take that up with him. I didn’t author it—I just pointed out his words—verse by verse.

Paul said something else in this book—“Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?” 4:16. Undoubtedly, he got the same reaction from those Jews, that I got from you.

 

[Aaron56]

It should be noted that a bondwoman is not a woman under sin. She is simply bound to something. In this state she is a slave.
Paul also used this term to describe himself: “slave to Christ” or a “bondservant”. When you are a slave to someone or you are bound to something you are not free to be either your own self or the property of another: you must do what your owner commands. A man cannot have two masters and a slave to Christ cannot be a slave to another.

Let’s break down the passage.

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

Paul was concerned about those who desired to be under the law. This letter was addressed to “the churches in Galatia” so his audience is not unbelievers. These are believers who have come to Christ.
Earlier, he began with a comparison between Judaism and the current revelation of the grace of Christ.

“I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel…”

As a show of sincerity he briefly speaks about his zealousness for the law and the traditions of his fathers before he came to Christ. He is putting all things on the table, so to speak, so the message to the Galatians is clear

“For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.”

Let’s continue with the original passage.

“For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman.”

The sons are Isaac, born of promise with the freewoman, and Ishmael, born of the flesh with his bondwoman. The freewoman is Sarah and the bondwoman is Hagar. This is what he writes:

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic.”

So, he says these examples are symbolic. So he’s really not talking about the people involved but what they represent. He explains:

“For these are the two covenants…”

He is using the symbols to expound upon the implications of two covenants. Which covenants?

“..the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children…”

Well, hold on! The children of Sarah were present at Sinai. These were the Jews. What was given at Sinai? The 10 Commandments and the Law. But Paul is saying here that the covenant given at Sinai corresponds to Hagar, the bondwoman and that the bondwoman corresponds to present day Jerusalem. (Just as an aside: do you know how offensive this would have been to the Jews!)

 

[Aaron56]

So, very plainly: the 10 Commandments and the Law gave birth to bondage. And Paul further writes that because of Sinai all of earthly Jerusalem and her children remain in bondage under the 10 Commandments and the Law. Let’s continue:

“..but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.”

So, there is a different Jerusalem that did not come under bondage. This Jerusalem is “from above” so it is not like the earthly Jerusalem. This must speak of different offspring.

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!”

Who was barren? We may think “Sarah” but let’s read on…

“For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

Who had a husband? This was Sarah! So, Paul flips the symbols on their head: In the natural, the children of the Hagar’s children could not inherit Abraham’s estate. But here, Paul is juxtaposing that earthly estate (earthly Jerusalem) with the spiritual estate (heavenly Jerusalem).

Hagar’s natural children were never under the law that gave birth to slavery. And now, many more of those natural children will come to the covenant of heavenly Jerusalem (children of God in Christ) than those who began as slave under the Commandments and the Law.

To say it another way: Originally, no one outside of the Jewish nation could say they were God’s children. BUT, Paul says, because of the covenant at Sinai, the children of Sarah became God’s slaves. Because they were slave, they could not inherit the promises given by the Spirit. Furthermore, those who were never Jews by the flesh and who were never given the covenant at Sinai will become children of promise in Christ and will far outnumber those born to Sarah.

Let’s finish up!

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

“Brethren”? The Galatians were not Jews. They were gentiles. See! Paul and the Galatians are brethren in the spirit.

Whereas Paul was once a child of bondage under Sinai and could not inherit the promises given by the Spirit, he is now, with all who come to Christ, a child of God!

29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

“Cast out the bondwoman and her son” This is not about casting out someone under sin. This is about having no place, within the church, for those who say we must follow the covenant at Sinai: the 10 Commandments and the Law.

Paul wrote in the next chapter: “You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”

Justification by the law might sound like “Because I keep the Saturday Sabbath, God approves of me more" or "Because I practice the Jewish feasts God likes me more", etc.

Such language and doctrine gives birth to bondage and has no place in the among the children of promise.

 

[Aaron56]

But some will say, “It’s all about loving your neighbor.”

Jesus actually gave us a new commandment about love:

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

So, the standard of love now is the same standard for God and for man.

To remain consistent, "why would Paul cite the commandment 'Love your neighbor as yourself'? He is revealing the least common denominator between believers and the unbelievers. Unbelievers, who are under the condemnation of the law, have not obtained grace. However, when we love as Christ loves, which is a greater standard than the law, then the unbelievers will have no debt against us and we will not own them anything. This passage is about debt, not about adhering to the Old Covenant. That is how he started the passage: "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another..."

 

[Aaron56]

“God’s people” have always been the people of promise. First, they were found among the Jews. Now, they are found only in Christ. Christ, the many-membered Body, consists of both Jews and non-Jews.

 

[Soyeong]

I can only tell you what the scriptures say. I have quoted them most times word for word. If you don’t like the message of Paul in this book , you will have to take that up with him. I didn’t author it—I just pointed out his words—verse by verse.

Paul said something else in this book—“Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?” 4:16. Undoubtedly, he got the same reaction from those Jews, that I got from you.

I did not deny what Scriptures say, but rather I only spoke against your absurd misunderstanding of them. I like what Paul said and am in complete agreement with him.

Galatians 4:12-16 Brothers, I entreat you, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You did me no wrong. 13 You know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first, 14 and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus. 15 What then has become of your blessedness? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have gouged out your eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which Paul also taught based on the Mosaic Law (Acts 14:21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23), so that is the Gospel that he was referring to him teaching them in Galatians 4:13. Furthermore, the Mosaic Law is truth (Psalms 119:142), which means that you are an enemy of the truth, unlike Paul.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Allegory of the old Jewish law and New law of Christ with Haggar and Sarah.
Galations 4:21-31
Paul starts out by saying that Abraham had 2 sons—one (Ishmael) by a bondwoman (Haggar) and another (Issac) by a free woman (Sarah). Sarah was Abraham’s wife. She was born free. But Sarah could not have children so, as the custom was in those days, she gave Abraham her servant as a wife so she could bear children for Abraham. Those children would be Sarah’s children because Haggar was Sarah’s servant. Sarah sought to have children by Haggar her servant maid. Hagar was like a surrogate mother for Sarah.
God had promised Abraham a son by Sarah, but it was taking a long time. I don’t know if Sarah didn’t believe God ( we know she laughed) or else she was trying to help God along. For this reason, Issac was called the “son of promise” because he had been promised by God. Ishmael, on the other hand was born by natural means of the flesh.
Now, right here, verse 24, Paul says these things are SYMBOLIC representing 2 covenants ( or laws). One of the covenants ( laws) had been given on Mt. Sinai by Moses. We know this to be the old Jewish law, including the 10 commandments., given by Moses. He says THIS represents Haggar—in fact he says, HAGAR IS MOUNT SINAI. and this law gives birth to bondage and it corresponds to Jerusalem which now is and in bondage. He’s talking about the Jewish people who still.are trying to be saved by keeping the old law; they have not been converted to Christ.

In verse 28- He says “we” (Christian’s) are like Issac—we are children of promise. And just like Ishmael persecuted Issac (see Genesis 21) so the Jews who are the children of the flesh, are still persecuting the children of promise today.

He says WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE SAY? It says, CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,; remember, in the beginning of this story he says he is talking about 2 laws or covenants. It’s SYMBOLIC. So the point he is really making is, “ cast out that old law”. He further says, we are not children of the BONDWOMAN ( the old Jewish law) but children of the free.(new law of Christ).

Stand fast, therefore, in the LIBERTY by which Christ has made us free. And do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Some of those Jewish Christians were still holding on to some of the laws in the old law. Paul tells them—don’t go back to that!! Christian’s today, beware. Trying to hold on to and obey the commandments in the old Jewish law, like keeping the 7th day and tithing, and keeping the 10 commandments, will cause you to “fall from grace Gal. 5:4

Let’s learn how to “rightly divide the word of God.” 2Tim. 2:15.

“and keeping the 10 commandments, will cause you to “fall from grace Gal. 5:4”

its a good read you posted this part here above . It’s not keeping the commandments that’s an issue it is believing the Ten Commandments to be our law that we must worship God by that causes the issue the commandments are good

“Do not kill “ Jesus endorses this principle and teaches all men not to kill

“have no other Gods before me “ Jesus also endorsed this commandment and teaches all of the one true and only God

“Thou shalt not commit adultery “ Jesus endorses and teaches all to be faithful in marriage and is totally against adultery and divorce

ect in the New Testament you still have the right principles it’s just to at we aren’t looking at yen “Thou shalt nots “ and we don’t think that’s what God has to say in Christ we know better but the commandments will be kept through faith and brotherly love

This is still true today

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭13:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see what he’s saying ? If I’m loving other people I’m not ever going to kill them , steal from them , lie about or to them , I’ll never commit adultery if truly I love my spouse I’ll never have any other gods if I Love the true and only God ect

I’m not going to violate the principles of the law I’m just not trying to look at God through ten Thou shalt nots that’s the old order and way before he stepped forth and spoke tonus on the gospel

It was how spiritually blind and deaf men knew God they couldn’t know or hear or see him so he gave them the angel over them until he should come forth

Keeping the commandments should be a bi product of believing the gospel and we never even need to look at the commandments but rather just learn from and if like after Jesus the lord he’ll keep us from killing cheating lying deceiving worshipping false gods ect

how we treat others in life is the basis of our law and judgement

 

[Beckworth]

I respect what you have written. This obviously has taken considerable time and effort.

I believe there is significant point that is overlooked in your post. Paul is not writing about Torah, given by God on Sinai. He is instead talking about the perversion of the law that had become the standard of Jewish worship, the Halakah. In the very first sentence of your quoted passage Paul is asking if the new converts to Yeshua have not heard the Torah. Yeshua was also severely critical of this man-made body of false teaching during his earthly mission.

Neither Christ nor Paul ever urged casting out the Torah. They did urge believers to cast out the false traditions that had so polluted Jewish worship at that time.

Jesus stated in his most famous sermon, that he did not come to change even the smallest letter of Torah, but came to bring those laws to completion. (Matthew 5:17-19) Indeed, Paul made that same point repeatedly in Romans. He bluntly states that by faith we uphold the Torah. (Romans3:31)

The separation of Haggar's children from Isaac's was not a separation of Jews from Christians. It was a separation of God's people from all others.

Hopefully, not too many people agree that we should stop keeping the Ten Commandments.

The scripture is very specific in that this allegory is talking about TWO COVENANTS in verse 24. There is nothing in any of the text that even hints at “perversions.” One of the “covenants” was from Mt. Sinai. This covenant was the entire law of the Jews. It was all given at Mt. Sinai. It represents the whole law and absolutely nothing indicates he is just talking about “perversions.” I have to conclude that this is just your opinion since there is no scripture verifying this.

The scripture you refer to in Matt 5 has a QUALIFIER in verse 18. He said not one word would pass from the law “UNTIL” all is fulfilled. That means when “all is fulfilled”. Then the law would pass (away). All prophecy about Christ would not be fulfilled until his death on the cross because that was prophesied, especially in Isaiah 53. That’s one reason Jesus said on the cross, “It is finished.” The old covenant of the Jews lasted until Jesus died on the cross. That corresponds perfectly with Colossians 2:14 that says Jesus took—keeping new moons, Sabbaths, feasts, and laws about unclean foods and drink—away, nailing it to his cross. Perfect harmony. Hebrews 9:16-17 tells us His new will came into effect-just like any will today—AFTER his death, not while he was still alive. Again, perfect harmony. You can’t make the scriptures say what they DONT SAY. Or what you would like for them to say to support your doctrine. In Galations and Roman’s Paul teaches that circumcision is no longer necessary and will profit you nothing. Why? Because Christ’s death did away with that old covenant with all of its laws and requirements. In Galations 4:10 he condemns them for observing days, and months, seasons, and years —all part of that old covenant of the Jews. Why? because Christ nailed all of that to His cross. Hebrews 7 says that the law has been changed; Hebrews 7:18 says that “there is an “annulling”of the former commandment,” because Christ “brought in” a better hope. Verse 22 says the new covenant that Christ brought is a “better” covenant. Chapter 8:6- it was a better covalent established on better promises. Verse 7- that first covenant ( the Jewish laws) had flaws or faults. Therefore He “sought for a second covenant( New Testament). Verse 8- “The days are coming when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and Judah—a new law for the Jewish people—“Not like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand and lead them out of Egypt.” He is clearly talking about the law given at Mt. Sinai. All of that covenant—not part, not perversions—nothing in the text indicates that, but the covenant (all of it). Verse 13 says, “In that He says a NEW COVENANT, He has made the first OBSOLETE.” The Old Testament (covenant) is OBSOLETE. Obsolete means “no longer used; out of date.” For this reason, “ now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to VANISH AWAY.” Hebrews 10:9 says He TOOK AWAY the first (covenant) that He might ESTABLISH the SECOND ( covenant). Many more scriptures in Galations that teach the same thing Hebrews does—that no one is under the old Jewish law in the Old Testament anymore. There is overwhelming evidence from the word of God on this.

And don’t worry about the 10 commandments. All of them but 1–remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy— are incorporated in Christ’s NEW covenant. I keep them because they are part of Christ’s new law of faith in His new covenant. And I don’t keep the old law’s requirement of keeping the sabbath because in Christ’s new covenant that has replaced the OLD covenant, we have a new day called “the Lord’s day” Revelation 1:10. It is the day the disciples of Christ come together to worship and when His church takes up a collection. It is the day the lord rose from the dead, and when His followers commune with Him by partaking of His supper. It is a glorious day BETTER than a sabbath day. As Hebrews says, a better covenant.

 

[Beckworth]

“and keeping the 10 commandments, will cause you to “fall from grace Gal. 5:4”

its a good read you posted this part here above . It’s not keeping the commandments that’s an issue it is believing the Ten Commandments to be our law that we must worship God by that causes the issue the commandments are good

“Do not kill “ Jesus endorses this principle and teaches all men not to kill

“have no other Gods before me “ Jesus also endorsed this commandment and teaches all of the one true and only God

“Thou shalt not commit adultery “ Jesus endorses and teaches all to be faithful in marriage and is totally against adultery and divorce

ect in the New Testament you still have the right principles it’s just to at we aren’t looking at yen “Thou shalt nots “ and we don’t think that’s what God has to say in Christ we know better but the commandments will be kept through faith and brotherly love

This is still true today

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭13:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see what he’s saying ? If I’m loving other people I’m not ever going to kill them , steal from them , lie about or to them , I’ll never commit adultery if truly I love my spouse I’ll never have any other gods if I Love the true and only God ect

I’m not going to violate the principles of the law I’m just not trying to look at God through ten Thou shalt nots that’s the old order and way before he stepped forth and spoke tonus on the gospel

It was how spiritually blind and deaf men knew God they couldn’t know or hear or see him so he gave them the angel over them until he should come forth

Keeping the commandments should be a bi product of believing the gospel and we never even need to look at the commandments but rather just learn from and if like after Jesus the lord he’ll keep us from killing cheating lying deceiving worshipping false gods ect

how we treat others in life is the basis of our law and judgement[/QUOTE

All of the 10 commandments are incorporated (in different places) in the New Testament except “remember the 7th day. That was no accident.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The pattern of the natural firstborn being rejected and the birthrights being given to God's choice occurs throughout the OT. For example, Cain/Seth, Ishmael/Isaac, Esau/Jacob, Reuben/Ephraim. Israel after the flesh/Israel after the spirit. First the natural, then the spiritual

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1 Corinthians 15:46​

 

[Beckworth]

It should be noted that a bondwoman is not a woman under sin. She is simply bound to something. In this state she is a slave.
Paul also used this term to describe himself: “slave to Christ” or a “bondservant”. When you are a slave to someone or you are bound to something you are not free to be either your own self or the property of another: you must do what your owner commands. A man cannot have two masters and a slave to Christ cannot be a slave to another.

Let’s break down the passage.

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

Paul was concerned about those who desired to be under the law. This letter was addressed to “the churches in Galatia” so his audience is not unbelievers. These are believers who have come to Christ.
Earlier, he began with a comparison between Judaism and the current revelation of the grace of Christ.

“I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel…”

As a show of sincerity he briefly speaks about his zealousness for the law and the traditions of his fathers before he came to Christ. He is putting all things on the table, so to speak, so the message to the Galatians is clear

“For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.”

Let’s continue with the original passage.

“For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman.”

The sons are Isaac, born of promise with the freewoman, and Ishmael, born of the flesh with his bondwoman. The freewoman is Sarah and the bondwoman is Hagar. This is what he writes:

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic.”

So, he says these examples are symbolic. So he’s really not talking about the people involved but what they represent. He explains:

“For these are the two covenants…”

He is using the symbols to expound upon the implications of two covenants. Which covenants?

“..the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children…”

Well, hold on! The children of Sarah were present at Sinai. These were the Jews. What was given at Sinai? The 10 Commandments and the Law. But Paul is saying here that the covenant given at Sinai corresponds to Hagar, the bondwoman and that the bondwoman corresponds to present day Jerusalem. (Just as an aside: do you know how offensive this would have been to the Jews!)

yes, I’m sure it was offensive, but he is trying to save their souls. These are Jewish Christians. They have been converted to Christ but are still holding on to parts of the old covenant. This was a common problem in the first century. After all, the Jews had been under that old law (covenant) for 1500 years. It was hard for them to give it up. Read Acts 15. This whole chapter is about Jewish Christians ( BELIEVERS) who are teaching gentile Christians that they must keep the Old Testament law of circumcision to be saved. This was a problem in the churches of Christ. Paul and Barbara’s had a big dispute with them about this verse 2. This resulted in a meeting of these two apostles and some of the leaders of the church in Jerusalem. Peter stood up (versev7) after there had been much debate, and said that by his mouth the gentiles had heard the word of GOd and believed. He is referring here to Acts 10 when he was sent to the house of Cornelius and preached the gospel of Christ to them and Cornelius and his house became the first gentile Christians. In verses 8-9 he says that God gave them (gentiles) the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10) as He did to us ( Jews) in Acts 2 when the Apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and tongues of fire sat on their heads. Peter was there on both of those occasions so he could testify of this. He said God made no distinction between us (Jews) and them (gentiles). The conclusion of this meeting was a letter written by the apostles and elders and the brethren (Christian’s) verse 23 to the gentile Christian’s in the churches of Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia. It said that all that was necessary was that they abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled and from sexual immorality. In other words, they did not have to be circumcised to be saved, like some of the Jewish Christian’s were saying.

The book of Hebrews was written to Christian’s who were wanting to go back to that old Jewish law. So he says in chapter 2:1 “we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.” He spends his time in this book showing that Christ is better than the angels in chapter 1, Christ is better than Moses in chapter 3:3. Christ’s priesthood is better than the Old Testament Levitical priesthood. Chpt 5. The new covenant is better than the old covenant. Chpt 7:22. The blood of Christ is better than the blood of bulls and goats Chpt 10:4 therefore the sacrifice of Christ is better than animal sacrifice. At the same time he teaches them in so many verses that the old testament is “obsolete and growing old and ready to VANISH AWAY! Chpt. 8:13

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yeah we’re Christian’s we follow Christ we don’t have any need for ten rocks we can just go learn from Jesus he’ll teach us the right way

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭13:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We don’t need to see any rocks or hear a ythi g Moses taught in a covenant with israel but we should because some of it is written about Christ

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The pattern of the natural firstborn being rejected and the birthrights being given to God's choice occurs throughout the OT. For example, Cain/Seth, Ishmael/Isaac, Esau/Jacob, Reuben/Ephraim. Israel after the flesh/Israel after the spirit. First the natural, then the spiritual

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1 Corinthians 15:46​

It’s based on cain the firstborn man killing abel the second who was righteous and pleased God