Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[2ndTimothyGroup]

@HeIsHere

Why be so shocked in what is said to Selahsays? If she told your little daughter that she, the child, had no understanding, would that bother you? When a "christian" says something like that to another, does that sound like Love to you?

How does the attempt to diminish another's spirit through establishing the Spiritual status of another as one without understanding, seem right to you?

I realize that this site is infected with constant bashing of one another (and it is part of this particular brand of "christianity") but Scripture is clear that such people do not belong to the Lord.

 

[HeIsHere]

@HeIsHere

Why be so shocked in what is said to Selahsays? If she told your little daughter that she, the child, had no understanding, would that bother you? When a "christian" says something like that to another, does that sound like Love to you?

How does the attempt to diminish another's spirit through establishing the Spiritual status of another as one without understanding, seem right to you?

I realize that this site is infected with constant bashing of one another (and it is part of this particular brand of "christianity") but Scripture is clear that such people do not belong to the Lord.

I did not see the word "you" as in you the actual person in her statement.

But I did read that you do not regard as a sister in Christ, seems a big leap of judgement to make on a discussion board.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I did not see the word "you" as in you the actual person in her statement.

But I did read that you do not regard as a sister in Christ, seems a big leap to make on a discussion board.

Quite the opposite. To say to me directly that I lack understanding is her establishment that we do not share the same Spirit. No one, who has had the same Love that God has for Christ within them, would ever accuse another of a lack of understanding. They would convey a different message . . . one of Love.

John 17:25-26 NLT - 25 "O righteous Father, the world doesn't know you, but I do; and these disciples know you sent me. 26 I have revealed you to them, and I will continue to do so. Then your love for me will be in them, and I will be in them."

 

[studier]

Thank you so very much for, more accurately, understanding the spirit of my writing!

This is the point, Mem. I easily read what you wrote and others do not. What I initially noted when I read the first @2ndTimothyGroup response to you was a changing of your words. I've noticed this several times with a few posters. Words and concepts are being twisted.

To give the benefit of doubt, we may simply think they do not understand. And they may not because they think entirely differently. The various sides to the arguments have a very different structure of thinking from the foundation up. The longer we interact, the greater the twisting. Then the personal attacks and other fallacious argumentation including things like, you don't understand the Word of God, or you don't have the Spirit, even you're not Christian.

It's all a nasty game. At best it's the factions I in part showed from Scripture re: Christian infancy according to Paul in 1Cor. At worst it's something else.

 

[Rufus]

I have no idea of what that is, though I used to. I used to spend my time studying these ideas, but then realized that I wasn't studying the Word of God. Huge mistake.

I found this link that might interest you. It lists four categories of theology, although others see more than four. But going by the four (which all conservative theologians recognize I see value in all of them. I find the thoughts expressed in the following excerpts to be wise and thoughtful:

The strength of a fourfold organization of theology is its capacity to simplify the overwhelming and demanding complexity of the question of God and humanity; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in all of the Trinity’s relations with human creatures against the backdrop of creation in both time and space. The challenge, and temptation, of this artificial organization within theology schools and otherwise, is to think of any of the four as discreet or independent. (emphasis mine)

Scientific cosmology describes human beings as existing simultaneously in four dimensions: height, length, depth, and time, all of which are implicit and necessary for defining the being and actions of human beings. Likewise, should (sic) we think of the necessity and mutuality of the four types of theology?

https://seminary.grace.edu/what-are-the-four-types-of-theology-answers-from-a-theology-school/

I think what the writer meant to ask was, "Likewise, shouldn't we think of the necessity and mutuality of the four types of theology?"

And I think we should. We mortals, with all our spiritual frailties, nonetheless instinctively are drawn to order with respect to functioning in this world. (And this shouldn't surprise us since our Image Maker is the Lord of Order!) We instinctively know that there is a right, proper and orderly way that will make our lives easier, more enjoyable and more conducive to learning and growing in every facet of life, including our spiritual life. Everyone of us has developed our own "systems" for doing things. The key to embracing any category of theology is to steer clear of the temptation stated in the first quoted paragraph. We need to discipline ourselves. But what else is new? Shouldn't we discipline ourselves in all areas of our lives?

 

[studier]

Thank you so very much for, more accurately, understanding the spirit of my writing! Otherwise, methinks I'd have lost any hope in any attempt to convey my thoughts on anything at all. Well, that is, if it not for the original Hebrew for "mother" being written with an aleph (that denotes leadership) as much as the word for "father" is also. I continue in wonderment at the distinction though, at father's alef being followed with a 'bet' and mother being followed with a 'mem.' Nonetheless, both spiritual illustrations of a leaders, authorities even, one of a house and the other of water (which is also often understood to represent life as well as spirit).

I didn't want to have you think I ignored this. There is a lot of beauty in the Hebrew Text and language it was written in. Some of these subtle truths we get to glimpse at times are absolutely fascinating.

 

[rogerg]

Thank you kindly. To be honest, I believe election and free will are both true. Why? Because both are taught in the Bible. If you’ll notice in Ephesians, ch. 1:4-12, Paul, a chosen vessel, has been talking about election. …but then in verse 13, Paul is now addressing those who trusted "after they heard the word of truth":

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, So here we see that after they believed, trusted and accepted Christ as their Savior, they were also sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (inheritance).

selahsays, as you know, there are many different perceptions/theories of how one gains trust and faith in Christ (who alone is the basis of the gospel), with mine just being one, and different from most, so I am not trying to be dogmatic here or insult anyone– just giving you an explanation as to how I see it. So having said that I think all of the attributes of a true Christian, including trust, belief, hearing, etc., can only come as an outgrowth from having been saved, with the Holy Spirit continuously leading us and growing us in/into them. By whom, when He brings us to a point of true belief/recognition in Christ alone as Saviour, He seals us. Therefore, given that can only be brought forth from salvation, I do not see how anyone’s free will could be the cause of, nor play a part in any of it, although, on the surface, at least initially, it may appear so. However, as we continue to grow in/into the knowledge of Christ, the perception that it could be somehow by/through man diminishes, and instead, is replaced by the attributing of it exclusively to the glory, grace, and mercy of God, manifested through our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[Rufus]

How can a person have freewill, but no control over where his choices will lead? Because this doesn't make sense to me, I can know with certainty that I am lacking some kind of understanding, knowledge, and perhaps wisdom. I need these three!

Why would you assume that a person, who is in bondage to his sin nature, nonetheless has this "autonomous" will that has escaped that bondage and is running around free?

 

[studier]

Actually Paul wasn't comparing the Natural Man with the Mature Christian; rather he was making a stark contrast between the two. And if we really want to get down to brass tacks, the Mature Christian was Paul and those who preached the gospel to the Corinthians, who Paul characterized in chapter 3 as worldly or fleshly -- "mere infants in Christ" (3:1).

In fact, Paul earlier contrasted the wisdom of this age -- this wisdom of the world that is foolishness to God that is spread throughout the world by supposed wise men, scholars, philosophers (1:20) to godly wisdom (gospel) that is a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles (1:23).

Then Paul tells this church from whence "we speak" (2:6) this message of wisdom. He said that "|God has revealed it to us by his Spirit" (2:10). So, right here is the contrast made with the godless "wisdom of this age". Paul further reinforced what he just said by saying "But we have the mind of Christ" (2:16b). Paul and the other preachers of the world did not speak by the "spirit of the world" but by "the Spirit who is from God.."that we may understand what God has freely given us" -- "in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words" (2:12-13).

Now...the vast majority of my translations begin vv. 14 and 15 with "But"! The Darby reads, for example:

1 Cor 2:14-15
14 But [the] natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him; and he cannot know [them] because they are spiritually discerned;

15 but the spiritual discerns all things, and he is discerned of no one.
Darby

But in the minority of translations that don't use the "But" (e.g. NIV and YLT), it's still very clear that contrasts are being made throughout the passage.

But someone may still be wondering why would Paul make such a seemingly extreme or odd contrast between the Natural Man (man without the Spirit) and the Mature Christian? I propose that the contrast is not as strange as it appears because both groups actually have something in common: Both are thoroughly entrenched in their respective worldviews. Both are mature! They have been at it for a long time (especially the Natural Man from birth, cp Ps 51:5; Prov 22:15) !) and both are convinced their view is the right one --- for different reasons they might be convinced, but they still are. And this is why the "natural man" does not receive the things of God: because they are foolishness to him! And he believes such -- because he is a lover of himself, lover of pleasures, lover of money, lover of the darkness, is under the power of the devil, the world and his flesh (sin nature), is in bondage to sin and as such is a naturally born rebel, enemy and HATER of God, thus he cannot receive the gospel truth. He is powerless (Rom 5:6)!

The spiritually dead have no true spiritual discernment. And in order to get spiritual discernment one must have the Spirit, as Paul and the other gospel preachers received. (And what would make us believe that Paul and the others did not have the Spirit when they first heard the gospel!?) And if one has the Spirit then this means he's been given spiritual life, since the Spirit is the Spirit of Life. And it's this Spirit of Life who sets us free the "law of sin and death" (Rom 8:2). And until the Natural Man is set free, he cannot escape from his spiritual tomb. The prisoner must be set free by a power outside himself! He doesn't get to walk out on his own, anymore than Adam was permitted to eat from the Tree of Life (Gen 3:22-24).

In closing, there is no reason whatsoever to not take this passage at face value -- to not take the easy-to-understand contrasts at face value. There are only two kinds of people in this world: Those with and those without the Holy Spirit. No reason to make the passage more complicated than it is. Adam died on the day he disobeyed precisely because the Spirit of Life that God had breathed into him on the sixth day was taken from him (Gen 2:7).

At times I've enjoyed reading some of your work. That time is now past. As I said earlier, thanks for the discussion. There is no way to reconcile our disagreements. We think very differently. I don't see you as having the ability to delve into Scripture in context to any degree of depth. I do see you avoiding doing so. I've offered several times to go through Scripture verse by verse to discuss what we each see. It's mostly ignored or met with extensive narrative or long created analogies. So, thanks once more.

So I'm clear, I'm not reading your above post and will only discuss a section of Scripture at a time in context. It's the only way to learn the Truth of what's being said. One or two verses apart from context is of little to no value and I have no interest in attempting to have an in-depth discussion about the meaning of the Text apart from the Text.

 

[Magenta]

selahsays, as you know, there are many different perceptions/theories of how one gains trust and faith in Christ (who alone is the basis of the gospel), with mine just being one, and different from most, so I am not trying to be dogmatic here or insult anyone– just giving you an explanation as to how I see it. So having said that I think all of the attributes of a true Christian, including trust, belief, hearing, etc., can only come as an outgrowth from having been saved, with the Holy Spirit continuously leading us and growing us in/into them. By whom, when He brings us to a point of true belief/recognition in Christ alone as Saviour, He seals us. Therefore, given that can only be brought forth from salvation, I do not see how anyone’s free will could be the cause of, nor play a part in any of it, although, on the surface, at least initially, it may appear so. However, as we continue to grow in/into the knowledge of Christ, the perception that it could be somehow by/through man diminishes, and instead, is replaced by the attributing of it exclusively to the glory, grace, and mercy of God, manifested through our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Free will as people speak of it is simply not found in the Bible. What is taught of the natural man is rejected by so many here who wish to cling to their belief that man is not the creature he became in Adam, who spread sin to the entire human race and death to all humanity. A multitude of verses have been repeatedly given and exposited to show the truth of the natural man, and ignored regularly by those whose man-made traditions mean more to them than the actual Word of God. Total depravity does not mean that all humankind is as evil as it possibly could be; rather, it means that sin affects the whole person and is an accurate description of the spiritual state of fallen man before a just and holy God. The human will is corrupted and in bondage to sin, which some call free, whereas Scripture teaches that it is in Christ that we are set free. There are none righteous aside from Christ, but some will tell you they did not need His help at all. Some will say that for God to move unilaterally in order to enable a person to respond positively to God, that He has kidnapped you against your will, making Him an unjust tyrant and His offer of repentance fraudulent. Or if they do not say it, they agree with those who say such things! These assertions have been explicitly put forth, but when I have mentioned them, I was told I am mischaracterizing what was said. In other words, lies are told with impunity, and lack of integrity abounds to the point we are basically told it is Christians who are said in Scripture to be without the Holy Spirit of God! Suck lack of logic and twisting of what is put forth in our holy book is unconscionable but becoming commonplace if it was not already. We have even been told that a person of their own free will can choose to believe in God and then they, by means of making that choice, retroactively become one of God's elect. They elect themselves, in other words. It seems some believe they can circumcise their own hearts and ears and unblind themselves. Of the natural man:

the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners
all our righteous acts are like filthy rags
there are NONE righteous
a bad tree cannot produce good fruit
all are under the control of the evil one
we need to be rescued
man’s heart is deceitful and desperately wicked
man is born dead in transgression and sin
he is held captive by a love for sin
will not seek God
he loves the darkness
does not understand the things of God
suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness
continues to willfully live in sin
sinful lifestyle seems right to men
rejects the gospel of Christ as foolishness
hostile toward God in their mind
does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so

I thank God for circumcising my heart, and opening my ears and eyes.

 

[Magenta]

John 8:36 plus Romans 8:2 If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death.

 

[rogerg]

Free will as people speak of it is simply not found in the Bible. What is taught of the natural man is rejected by so many here who wish to cling to their belief that man is not the creature he became in Adam, who spread sin to the entire human race and death to all humanity. A multitude of verses have been repeatedly given and exposited to show the truth of the natural man, and ignored regularly by those whose man-made traditions mean more to them than the actual Word of God. Total depravity does not mean that all humankind is as evil as it possibly could be; rather, it means that sin affects the whole person and is an accurate description of the spiritual state of fallen man before a just and holy God. The human will is corrupted and in bondage to sin, which some call free, whereas Scripture teaches that it is in Christ that we are set free. There are none righteous aside from Christ, but some will tell you they did not need His help at all. Some will say that for God to move unilaterally in order to enable a person to respond positively to God, that He has kidnapped you against your will, making Him an unjust tyrant and His offer of repentance fraudulent. Or if they do not say it, they agree with those who say such things! These assertions have been explicitly put forth, but when I have mentioned them, I was told I am mischaracterizing what was said. In other words, lies are told with impunity, and lack of integrity abounds to the point we are basically told it is Christians who are said in Scripture to be without the Holy Spirit of God! Suck lack of logic and twisting of what is put forth in our holy book is unconscionable but becoming commonplace if it was not already. We have even been told that a person of their own free will can choose to believe in God and then they, by means of making that choice, retroactively become one of God's elect. They elect themselves, in other words. It seems some believe they can circumcise their own hearts and ears and unblind themselves. Of the natural man:

the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners
all our righteous acts are like filthy rags
there are NONE righteous
a bad tree cannot produce good fruit
all are under the control of the evil one
we need to be rescued
man’s heart is deceitful and desperately wicked
man is born dead in transgression and sin
he is held captive by a love for sin
will not seek God
he loves the darkness
does not understand the things of God
suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness
continues to willfully live in sin
sinful lifestyle seems right to men
rejects the gospel of Christ as foolishness
hostile toward God in their mind
does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so

I thank God for circumcising my heart, and opening my ears and eyes.

I completely and totally agree with you, Magenta, and thank you for posting it.

 

[MerSee]

Can you imagine those in hell trying to tell God they did not have free-will to make the right choice. God won't listen to them.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

One of the greatest examples of Free Will Jesus proves is about the Wedding Ceremony.

Invitations are sent out to everyone.

But only a "few" free will choose to come.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Jesus said as people were given invites they said I cannot come because of this or that.

They had the chance to come but chose to reject it by their own free will.

3 He sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they wouldn’t come.

 

[MerSee]

One of the greatest examples of Free Will Jesus proves is about the Wedding Ceremony.

Invitations are sent out to everyone.

But only a "few" free will choose to come.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Jesus said as people were given invites they said I cannot come because of this or that.

They had the chance to come but chose to reject it by their own free will.

3 He sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they wouldn’t come.

They get mad at God for allowing them to walk away from salvation.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I found this link that might interest you. It lists four categories of theology, although others see more than four. But going by the four (which all conservative theologians recognize I see value in all of them. I find the thoughts expressed in the following excerpts to be wise and thoughtful:

The strength of a fourfold organization of theology is its capacity to simplify the overwhelming and demanding complexity of the question of God and humanity; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in all of the Trinity’s relations with human creatures against the backdrop of creation in both time and space. The challenge, and temptation, of this artificial organization within theology schools and otherwise, is to think of any of the four as discreet or independent. (emphasis mine)

Scientific cosmology describes human beings as existing simultaneously in four dimensions: height, length, depth, and time, all of which are implicit and necessary for defining the being and actions of human beings. Likewise, should (sic) we think of the necessity and mutuality of the four types of theology?

https://seminary.grace.edu/what-are-the-four-types-of-theology-answers-from-a-theology-school/

I think what the writer meant to ask was, "Likewise, shouldn't we think of the necessity and mutuality of the four types of theology?"

And I think we should. We mortals, with all our spiritual frailties, nonetheless instinctively are drawn to order with respect to functioning in this world. (And this shouldn't surprise us since our Image Maker is the Lord of Order!) We instinctively know that there is a right, proper and orderly way that will make our lives easier, more enjoyable and more conducive to learning and growing in every facet of life, including our spiritual life. Everyone of us has developed our own "systems" for doing things. The key to embracing any category of theology is to steer clear of the temptation stated in the first quoted paragraph. We need to discipline ourselves. But what else is new? Shouldn't we discipline ourselves in all areas of our lives?

Thank you so much for sharing, Rufus. I read each word that you have offered, but I don't have the time to check out the link. I'm sorry. I rarely ever turn to the written works of others, but would instead rather come to a forum where I can communicate with rational and reasonable people. As you can see with the rude interactions I have had with others, finding such kind and gentle people is no easy task; much like looking for the needle in a haystack. As mentioned, I would rather study our Bible than the thoughts of other authors . . . that seems like a more useful thing to do with my limited time. Again, thank you so much.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Why would you assume that a person, who is in bondage to his sin nature, nonetheless has this "autonomous" will that has escaped that bondage and is running around free?

I don't quite follow your logic and reasoning. I didn't make any assumptions. I was asking a question based upon the words of others.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners
all our righteous acts are like filthy rags
there are NONE righteous
a bad tree cannot produce good fruit
all are under the control of the evil one
we need to be rescued
man’s heart is deceitful and desperately wicked
man is born dead in transgression and sin
he is held captive by a love for sin
will not seek God
he loves the darkness
does not understand the things of God
suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness
continues to willfully live in sin
sinful lifestyle seems right to men
rejects the gospel of Christ as foolishness
hostile toward God in their mind
does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so

I thank God for circumcising my heart, and opening my ears and eyes.

It is your final statement that is responsible for a Romans 12:2 Transformation. And to the credit of nearly every "christian," they do not have preachers, teachers, and pastors who are sharing the above side of the Bible. The reason for this is obvious, once we understand the Holy Effect of Christ's Holy Work. But because most Christians have not been given new hearts that cause and move them to obey, they will reject this core teaching of the Bible. These said "christians" are bent on being and staying in control of their lives, but in by coming to understand Spiritual Circumcision, I now realize that I only sinned because I was moved to do so . . . by my former Spiritual Father, the Devil. I would still believe that I was responsible for the entirety of my life if I had not Experienced the Powerful, Almighty Presence of the Lord. When that happened to me, I realized that I needed to set aside, but not forget, all my former teachings, and then begin searching the entire Bible, thought by thought, to figure out what had happened to me.

So, people can call me a Calvinist, or whatever label they have . . . I don't care about that crap at all. What I care about is what the Bible says, not what Calvin said.

Thank you so much for being patient and outlining the above for those who refuse to accept those passages, thoughts, and ideas.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

John 8:36 plus Romans 8:2 If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death.

If we reject Romans 8:2, understanding the Bible as a whole will be illusory.

 

[studier]

Can you imagine those in hell trying to tell God they did not have free-will to make the right choice. God won't listen to them.

Actually, as I understand some, He'll just tell them, of course you didn't have free will, I made you for this place.