Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
- Thread starter MerSee
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
sadly enough this is the truth., they live by doctrine of men, for somebody to say they are a “christian” but haven’t read the scripture cover to cover is ludicrous but if you actually find one that does study cover to cover, they don’t know history and that’s the second worst transgression of todays believers.
i just hope that by refuting these devilish doctrines that they heard in church that it will challenge them to read the book and research history for themselves.
i just hope that by refuting these devilish doctrines that they heard in church that it will challenge them to read the book and research history for themselves.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
Your words are kind. Thank you. I don't really have a systematic way of studying. I've been saved for 31 years and during that time I have listened to tens of thousands of sermons. I have also been blessed to have opportunity for long periods of meditation. It is only recently that I have tried to handle scripture organizationally. That is, because there is purposeful organization in the way scripture is written, part of the intention and meaning is found in its structure.
I hardly feel like I have a handle on all of this, and I've never considered myself particularly organized. I see many people on this site who I believe are very intelligent and some truly gifted with incredibly analytical minds. I wish I had a mind like that. But I have sat under pastor for nearly 30 years who is an incredible teacher.
I wish I could outline a plan for you but I don't have one, but I can share with you something someone shared with me a long time ago that has been extremely helpful to me. Many people practice spiritual disciplines like prayer, Bible study, meditation, fasting, and fellowship. And many believe the benefit is in the practice. And, to be sure, there is some value in the practice. But the real benefit of spiritual disciplines are that they are the practices wherein God has established to actually meet with His people. For example, when we pray, we are taught to enter our closet. And there, our Father who is in secret, meets us there. We are told not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. We are also taught that when 2 or more gather, Jesus will be in the midst.
I tell you this because it is in God's presence that we are changed from glory to glory. And while I believe many people practice spiritual disciplines, I don't know that they know much of what it truly is to be in the presence of God. But no one has to tell me when someone has been in the presence of God. I know because they are like Christ.
Hope this is at least a little bit helpful.
I hardly feel like I have a handle on all of this, and I've never considered myself particularly organized. I see many people on this site who I believe are very intelligent and some truly gifted with incredibly analytical minds. I wish I had a mind like that. But I have sat under pastor for nearly 30 years who is an incredible teacher.
I wish I could outline a plan for you but I don't have one, but I can share with you something someone shared with me a long time ago that has been extremely helpful to me. Many people practice spiritual disciplines like prayer, Bible study, meditation, fasting, and fellowship. And many believe the benefit is in the practice. And, to be sure, there is some value in the practice. But the real benefit of spiritual disciplines are that they are the practices wherein God has established to actually meet with His people. For example, when we pray, we are taught to enter our closet. And there, our Father who is in secret, meets us there. We are told not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. We are also taught that when 2 or more gather, Jesus will be in the midst.
I tell you this because it is in God's presence that we are changed from glory to glory. And while I believe many people practice spiritual disciplines, I don't know that they know much of what it truly is to be in the presence of God. But no one has to tell me when someone has been in the presence of God. I know because they are like Christ.
Hope this is at least a little bit helpful.
-
2
- Show all
@MikeIsraelite72
Well said. And by the way, I am so glad to see you posting, when initially you stated that you were hesitant. It is good to have your support, something which "said christians" are typically unwilling to do. Glad you are here!
Well said. And by the way, I am so glad to see you posting, when initially you stated that you were hesitant. It is good to have your support, something which "said christians" are typically unwilling to do. Glad you are here!
-
1
- Show all
So, let me get this straight: The Omniscient God knew everyone from eternity who would never believe on His Son, yet at the same time he Sent his Son to die for them anyway? TO WHAT LOGICAL END, MAY I ASK?
Moreover what does God's Omniscience, i.e. foreknowledge, have to do with his Justice? Didn't he give believers and unbelievers alike "free will"?
Also, If God saved no human beings, would Satan represent the entire human race, claiming that God made it impossible for anyone in mankind to believe in Him through his Son? What case could he make? Logically speaking, since God is not morally obligated to save all, then how can he be morally culpable for choosing to save only many? Yet, this is what your premise implies. if God saves only "some", then somehow it's unfair of him if he doesn't save all? The only way God could ever be unfair is by NOT giving sinners what they rightly deserve! But there can never be an injustice with God for giving many sinners what they DON'T deserve, since His justice has been satisfied on their behalf in, by and through His Son. Your sense of justice is totally twisted. You start with a premise that clearly implies that somehow God is morally obligated to either save no one (such as he has passed on all the fallen angels) or to make salvation possible for all.
And don't you know what Jesus taught about a kingdom that is divided against itself!? Satan hates God and hates all mankind. Satan desires only one thing: The utter destruction of all God's image-bearers. So, logically, why would Satan take up the defense on non-believers, that he so earnestly and zealously desires to be in hell with him for all eternity? Your premise is entirely absurd, sir. Satan, the hater of all mankind is going to take up the defense of those he hates!? To what end: So that fewer people he so vehemently hates get to share his pain and torment in the eternal fires of hell?
And you're also absolutely right about what you said in your first sentence. God's omniscience should not be construed as him causing unbelief in the condemned. God's "omniscience" caused unbelievers to simply remain in their own devices -- in their, natural, fallen state. And there's nothing unjust in that, as explained above.
Moreover what does God's Omniscience, i.e. foreknowledge, have to do with his Justice? Didn't he give believers and unbelievers alike "free will"?
Also, If God saved no human beings, would Satan represent the entire human race, claiming that God made it impossible for anyone in mankind to believe in Him through his Son? What case could he make? Logically speaking, since God is not morally obligated to save all, then how can he be morally culpable for choosing to save only many? Yet, this is what your premise implies. if God saves only "some", then somehow it's unfair of him if he doesn't save all? The only way God could ever be unfair is by NOT giving sinners what they rightly deserve! But there can never be an injustice with God for giving many sinners what they DON'T deserve, since His justice has been satisfied on their behalf in, by and through His Son. Your sense of justice is totally twisted. You start with a premise that clearly implies that somehow God is morally obligated to either save no one (such as he has passed on all the fallen angels) or to make salvation possible for all.
And don't you know what Jesus taught about a kingdom that is divided against itself!? Satan hates God and hates all mankind. Satan desires only one thing: The utter destruction of all God's image-bearers. So, logically, why would Satan take up the defense on non-believers, that he so earnestly and zealously desires to be in hell with him for all eternity? Your premise is entirely absurd, sir. Satan, the hater of all mankind is going to take up the defense of those he hates!? To what end: So that fewer people he so vehemently hates get to share his pain and torment in the eternal fires of hell?
And you're also absolutely right about what you said in your first sentence. God's omniscience should not be construed as him causing unbelief in the condemned. God's "omniscience" caused unbelievers to simply remain in their own devices -- in their, natural, fallen state. And there's nothing unjust in that, as explained above.
So, let me get this straight: The Omniscient God knew everyone from eternity who would never believe on His Son, yet at the same time he Sent his Son to die for them anyway? TO WHAT LOGICAL END, MAY I ASK?
Moreover what does God's Omniscience, i.e. foreknowledge, have to do with his Justice? Didn't he give believers and unbelievers alike "free will"?
Also, If God saved no human beings, would Satan represent the entire human race, claiming that God made it impossible for anyone in mankind to believe in Him through his Son? What case could he make? Logically speaking, since God is not morally obligated to save all, then how can he be morally culpable for choosing to save only many? Yet, this is what your premise implies. if God saves only "some", then somehow it's unfair of him if he doesn't save all? The only way God could ever be unfair is by NOT giving sinners what they rightly deserve! But there can never be an injustice with God for giving many sinners what they DON'T deserve, since His justice has been satisfied on their behalf in, by and through His Son. Your sense of justice is totally twisted. You start with a premise that clearly implies that somehow God is morally obligated to either save no one (such as he has passed on all the fallen angels) or to make salvation possible for all.
And don't you know what Jesus taught about a kingdom that is divided against itself!? Satan hates God and hates all mankind. Satan desires only one thing: The utter destruction of all God's image-bearers. So, logically, why would Satan take up the defense on non-believers, that he so earnestly and zealously desires to be in hell with him for all eternity? Your premise is entirely absurd, sir. Satan, the hater of all mankind is going to take up the defense of those he hates!? To what end: So that fewer people he so vehemently hates get to share his pain and torment in the eternal fires of hell?
And you're also absolutely right about what you said in your first sentence. God's omniscience should not be construed as him causing unbelief in the condemned. God's "omniscience" caused unbelievers to simply remain in their own devices -- in their, natural, fallen state. And there's nothing unjust in that, as explained above.
Moreover what does God's Omniscience, i.e. foreknowledge, have to do with his Justice? Didn't he give believers and unbelievers alike "free will"?
Also, If God saved no human beings, would Satan represent the entire human race, claiming that God made it impossible for anyone in mankind to believe in Him through his Son? What case could he make? Logically speaking, since God is not morally obligated to save all, then how can he be morally culpable for choosing to save only many? Yet, this is what your premise implies. if God saves only "some", then somehow it's unfair of him if he doesn't save all? The only way God could ever be unfair is by NOT giving sinners what they rightly deserve! But there can never be an injustice with God for giving many sinners what they DON'T deserve, since His justice has been satisfied on their behalf in, by and through His Son. Your sense of justice is totally twisted. You start with a premise that clearly implies that somehow God is morally obligated to either save no one (such as he has passed on all the fallen angels) or to make salvation possible for all.
And don't you know what Jesus taught about a kingdom that is divided against itself!? Satan hates God and hates all mankind. Satan desires only one thing: The utter destruction of all God's image-bearers. So, logically, why would Satan take up the defense on non-believers, that he so earnestly and zealously desires to be in hell with him for all eternity? Your premise is entirely absurd, sir. Satan, the hater of all mankind is going to take up the defense of those he hates!? To what end: So that fewer people he so vehemently hates get to share his pain and torment in the eternal fires of hell?
And you're also absolutely right about what you said in your first sentence. God's omniscience should not be construed as him causing unbelief in the condemned. God's "omniscience" caused unbelievers to simply remain in their own devices -- in their, natural, fallen state. And there's nothing unjust in that, as explained above.
Believers get all tripped up because they see something as impossible for an omniscient God.
The key to God creating all men without knowing how they would believe is to be found in the state of mind Jesus became when He came to earth. He came not as God. But as a man....
That ability of the Son to make himself to be as a man holds the keys to the mystery as to why everyone and everything created had to be created through the Son. For the Son (as demonstrated by Jesus) was capable of stepping outside of his power of omniscience to make himself be as a man.
In other words? When Jesus was used of God to create all men? Jesus placing himself outside of omniscience, could mentally create all souls with only the desire that once they were created, all would want to love God. Plain and simple.
That is why all of use had to be created THROUGH him! In doing so, it avoided God's omniscience from jamming up the works, having to create some not to believe......
I mean, I am absolutely perplexed.
2 Timothy 2:25-26 NLT - "Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants."
If your preferred translation says something other than what is offered above, I'd like to see it. To me, the above is at the HEART of the Gospel, Saving Plan of Christ and it is ultra simple to understand. God is the one who changes hearts, not each individual person. This is what the entire Bible is about.
2 Timothy 2:25-26 NLT - "Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants."
If your preferred translation says something other than what is offered above, I'd like to see it. To me, the above is at the HEART of the Gospel, Saving Plan of Christ and it is ultra simple to understand. God is the one who changes hearts, not each individual person. This is what the entire Bible is about.
Worldwide Cameron, I think Islam is a fast growing religion.
Where as Christianity is not a growing religion in the majority of countries worldwide.
Christianity would be in decline (falling away) in the majority of the countries.
There was an era when Christianity almost filled the garden.
Alas, those days are passing rapidly now.
Where as Christianity is not a growing religion in the majority of countries worldwide.
Christianity would be in decline (falling away) in the majority of the countries.
There was an era when Christianity almost filled the garden.
Alas, those days are passing rapidly now.
-
1
- Show all
The truth is that God creates over ninety percent of people to reject Jesus.
More so, many of those people God predetermines to commit atrocious sin.
He then judges them for eternity for the sin of the rejection of Jesus and moral depravity.
A sovereign God is sovereign over all.
I think we rejoice.
More so, many of those people God predetermines to commit atrocious sin.
He then judges them for eternity for the sin of the rejection of Jesus and moral depravity.
A sovereign God is sovereign over all.
I think we rejoice.
There is a time for gentle approach. Usually found in a face to face bible studies.
There is also a time for something needing to be debated concerning the promotion of false doctrine.
The internet can easily remove us from intimate the face to face format and places us in a PUBLIC arena for debating.
Debating publicly can get us into a different realm of emphasis.......
What some are failing to see is that too many things said here are false and with a desire to promote it....
In that case? Here is what the Bible has to say about being "gentle" when that situation arise... .
We need balance when someone assumes all communication is to be gently done.
Those who wish to promote false doctrine will walk all over you if you mechanically take that tact.
In Christ... grace and peace
There is also a time for something needing to be debated concerning the promotion of false doctrine.
The internet can easily remove us from intimate the face to face format and places us in a PUBLIC arena for debating.
Debating publicly can get us into a different realm of emphasis.......
What some are failing to see is that too many things said here are false and with a desire to promote it....
In that case? Here is what the Bible has to say about being "gentle" when that situation arise... .
2 Corinthians 10:4-5
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world.
On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up
against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought
to make it obedient to Christ.
We need balance when someone assumes all communication is to be gently done.
Those who wish to promote false doctrine will walk all over you if you mechanically take that tact.
In Christ... grace and peace
-
1
- Show all
Neither do I....
There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
Ecclesiastes 3:3-5
There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
Hah! Very interesting text. The NIV renders the above:
Eccl 12:9-10
9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but also he imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs. 10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.
NIV
This passage suggest at least two things: First, the "Teacher" seemed to have been quite to disposed to systematic study. He was likely methodical in procedure and planning. Secondly, along the same lines, he very likely divided the proverbs up according to topics. He might have actually written the first Topical Bible ever. And yet, we have several people on this thread who totally dismiss the value of such kinds of study! In fact, they, thinking themselves to be wise, mock and ridicule those of us who see value in the various disciplines of theology and in recognizing and being thankful for the good gifts that God has given to his Church, such as teachers!
Good catch on that passage! This is why I love the Wisdom Books so much!
Eccl 12:9-10
9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but also he imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs. 10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.
NIV
This passage suggest at least two things: First, the "Teacher" seemed to have been quite to disposed to systematic study. He was likely methodical in procedure and planning. Secondly, along the same lines, he very likely divided the proverbs up according to topics. He might have actually written the first Topical Bible ever. And yet, we have several people on this thread who totally dismiss the value of such kinds of study! In fact, they, thinking themselves to be wise, mock and ridicule those of us who see value in the various disciplines of theology and in recognizing and being thankful for the good gifts that God has given to his Church, such as teachers!
Good catch on that passage!
This is why I love the Wisdom Books so much!
In defense against the allegation as made:
When I point out that someone is speaking about Scripture from a certain systematic theological tradition, it's not a negative comment about topical Bible studies. It's rather about recognizing certain interpretive traditions, how someone is locked into one, and how every verse of Scripture is presented or proof-texted pursuant to that systematized tradition.
You've changed your views of certain interpretations. Some of us in looking at various systems have set aside one they were trained under and concluded that they simply desire to let the Word speak for Himself.
I have come to the conclusion that I simply want to look at Scripture and see if any of those who have been trained under various systems can actually read and explain the Scriptures they allege has a certain meaning. IOW, I have no interest anymore in the various team jerseys many have chosen to wear.
If there's a general weakness in these discussions, it's not in peoples' understanding of the tradition they've chosen to remain with, it's rather a level of inability to actually read and explain Scripture apart from that tradition.
BTW, if you're interested, the Greek as well as the Hebrew word translated as "proverbs" in your verse from Ecc. also means "parables" and the NET Bible has some interesting notes about translating and thinking about that verse.
-
2
- Show all
The kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ. Nothing is going to stop this. Simply because there are less people attending church doesn't mean there are fewer Christians. It could be that judgment begins at the house of God. Church attendance declining can simply be God purging the threshing floor.
People forget too easily that everything changed with the cross. Although God is working gradually through history, He's definitely working. I see it everyday.
People forget too easily that everything changed with the cross. Although God is working gradually through history, He's definitely working. I see it everyday.
-
2
-
1
- Show all