What if you die before water baptism?

[Wansvic]

that doesn't make sense at all. past, present & future, everyone can't get baptized because of various reasons: too old, no one to take them to the baptismal, invalidity in some other way. it is not scriptural that you have to get baptized for sins to be forgiven. i hope you discover this truth.

Actually it is scriptural:
"And thou, child, (John the Baptist) shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace."


Mark 1:4-5
Luke 1:76-77
Luke 3:3-7
Luke 7:29-30
Luke 24:47
Acts 2:38-42
Acts 20:26-28
Acts 22:16

Matt 26:28
Romans 6:3-6
1 Cor 6:11
Col 2:12-13

 

[Beckworth]

So what happened when you received it?

.

If you are talking about the MIRACULOUS baptism of the Holy Spirit as in Acts 2 and 1 Cor. 10, then, as I said before, it was a SIGN used to confirm the words of the apostles in Acts 2 and a SIGN to the Jews in Acts 10 that “the gentiles have been granted repentance to life,” Acts 11:18. The Jews would have never accepted the gentiles without this manifestation from God. It proved to them God’s acceptance of the gentiles for salvation.
Mark 16:20, they preached and the Lord was with them “confirming the word. (That they preached) with “accompanying SIGNS.” This was the purpose of miracles. Also, in Hebrews 2:3-4 the Bible says that God’s word was CONFIRMED to us by “ various MIRACLES and GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit was never for SALVATION it was used to CONFIRM the preaching of the word of God— its presence PROVED that the message came from God. This is what the Bible teaches. Show me a scripture that says the Holy Spirit saved anyone. This is a doctrine of men and has no foundation in Christ’s word.

As I said before, there were different ways, proven by the scriptures, to get the Holy Spirit. The first we discussed above—by MIRACULOUS baptism. The second way to receive the Spirit was by the apostles laying their hands on you. As we read in Acts 8. Spiritual gifts were given this way. You can read about “spiritual gifts” in 1 Cor. 14. As Hebrews 2 says the “gifts” of tongues, prophecy, healing, and miracles (as well as others) were used to CONFIRM THE WORD preached. You have to remember they did not have the Bible in written form. Today, we just read our Bibles to see if the things that are preached are true. They couldn’t do that. The Spiritual gifts were necessary to prove God’s message. Also, I might add, that the apostles could give spiritual gifts by laying their hands on you, but there is no evidence in the scriptures that the people who received the gifts could “pass it on”” by laying THEIR hands on others. Only the apostles could impart spiritual gifts by giving the Holy Spirit to people. That means that once all of the apostles died and the people who they laid their hands on died—. Then spiritual gifts ceased; just like 1 Cor. 13 said. By that time they had the WRITTEN. Word of God.

Also, in Acts 8, we see that people were already saved BEFORE they received the Holy Spirit, proving that the Spirit was not used to SAVE people.

But God tells us in 1 Cor. 13 that when THAT which is “perfect” comes, spiritual gifts will CEASE. Romans 12:2 says, “that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and PERFECT WILL OF GOD. Also, James 1:25 says, …but he who looks into the PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY…” The Bible is “THAT WHICH IS PERFECT.” When the word of God was written down, in a form that man could read and use, then there was no longer any NEED for spiritual gifts. The word today has already been confirmed. We can read about it. We can read about the “signs” , “miracles”, and “spiritual gifts” that confirmed it.

Today, we as Christians, receive the “GIFT” of the Holy Spirit when we are baptized for the remission of sins as Peter says in Acts 2:38. It is a gift from God to every Christian who obeys Christ in Baptism. You are not promised the Spirit in any other way. 1 Cor. 6:19 says “Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is IN YOU, whom you have from God.”

 

[Beckworth]

First off this was many years ago and it changed my life, in a good way. I’m not sure why you feel the reason to YELL when you capitalized “HE IS TO KEEP SILENT!!” ? I’m amazed at persons who feel the need to yell on a forum. There was a reason the Pharisees reacted in ANGER to everything Jesus did. It was because they were old wineskins. Jesus was doing things that they just couldn’t comprehend or accept. So they eventually became ANGERED to the point of a murderous rage. They didn’t care if He was the son of God, they were in charge and they were gonna shut Him down quick.[/QUOT


The capitalized words are not meant to show “anger”; they are used for emphasis. I don’t know why you would think that. If I could italicize words, then I would do that to emphasize, but I cannot. And I “emphasized” those words to show that that part of the Bible is being ignored today by everyone who claims to speak in tongues. Yet it is an important requirement by God.

 

[Burn1986]

Well, it’s a different walk. When I got saved everything changed. When I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, everything changed. It’s hard to explain experiences, but experiences do happen. Everything that’s happened to me is scriptural. I could go on about hearing God and the changes in my life, but it’s too much to list.

 

[Wansvic]

.

If you are talking about the MIRACULOUS baptism of the Holy Spirit as in Acts 2 and 1 Cor. 10, then, as I said before, it was a SIGN used to confirm the words of the apostles in Acts 2 and a SIGN to the Jews in Acts 10 that “the gentiles have been granted repentance to life,” Acts 11:18. The Jews would have never accepted the gentiles without this manifestation from God. It proved to them God’s acceptance of the gentiles for salvation.
Mark 16:20, they preached and the Lord was with them “confirming the word. (That they preached) with “accompanying SIGNS.” This was the purpose of miracles. Also, in Hebrews 2:3-4 the Bible says that God’s word was CONFIRMED to us by “ various MIRACLES and GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit was never for SALVATION it was used to CONFIRM the preaching of the word of God— its presence PROVED that the message came from God. This is what the Bible teaches. Show me a scripture that says the Holy Spirit saved anyone. This is a doctrine of men and has no foundation in Christ’s word.

As I said before, there were different ways, proven by the scriptures, to get the Holy Spirit. The first we discussed above—by MIRACULOUS baptism. The second way to receive the Spirit was by the apostles laying their hands on you. As we read in Acts 8. Spiritual gifts were given this way. You can read about “spiritual gifts” in 1 Cor. 14. As Hebrews 2 says the “gifts” of tongues, prophecy, healing, and miracles (as well as others) were used to CONFIRM THE WORD preached. You have to remember they did not have the Bible in written form. Today, we just read our Bibles to see if the things that are preached are true. They couldn’t do that. The Spiritual gifts were necessary to prove God’s message. Also, I might add, that the apostles could give spiritual gifts by laying their hands on you, but there is no evidence in the scriptures that the people who received the gifts could “pass it on”” by laying THEIR hands on others. Only the apostles could impart spiritual gifts by giving the Holy Spirit to people. That means that once all of the apostles died and the people who they laid their hands on died—. Then spiritual gifts ceased; just like 1 Cor. 13 said. By that time they had the WRITTEN. Word of God.

Also, in Acts 8, we see that people were already saved BEFORE they received the Holy Spirit, proving that the Spirit was not used to SAVE people.

But God tells us in 1 Cor. 13 that when THAT which is “perfect” comes, spiritual gifts will CEASE. Romans 12:2 says, “that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and PERFECT WILL OF GOD. Also, James 1:25 says, …but he who looks into the PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY…” The Bible is “THAT WHICH IS PERFECT.” When the word of God was written down, in a form that man could read and use, then there was no longer any NEED for spiritual gifts. The word today has already been confirmed. We can read about it. We can read about the “signs” , “miracles”, and “spiritual gifts” that confirmed it.

Today, we as Christians, receive the “GIFT” of the Holy Spirit when we are baptized for the remission of sins as Peter says in Acts 2:38. It is a gift from God to every Christian who obeys Christ in Baptism. You are not promised the Spirit in any other way. 1 Cor. 6:19 says “Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is IN YOU, whom you have from God.”

Scripture reveals everyone must be indwelt by the Holy Spirit in order to be saved. (Rom. 8:9-11) Scripture also reveals that being indwelt does not automatically occur upon water baptism. Note, Acts 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7. However, those who submit to water baptism are promised they will at some point receive the Holy Spirit. (Acts 8:12-18, 19:1-7)

As to spiritual gifts they flow directly from the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. And serve the same purpose today as they did in the apostolic era; they reveal the truth that our Heavenly Father exists. He knows the hearts and minds of people and reveals such through miraculous means.

 

[Beckworth]

1. No. You may be surprised who's up in heaven. Baptism does not save, it's a public announcement that declares one is saved.
2. If he confessed Jesus Christ as his personal savior, he's saved, heaven bound.

That would be great if it were true, but it is not. No where in the whole Bible was anyone saved by “confessing Christ as their personal savior”. You can’t just “make up” your own personal way to be saved. Nor was “confessing Christ as your personal savior” ever taught by Christ or any of his apostles.

When the Jews asked “What shall we do?” In Acts 2, did Peter tell them “confess Christ as your personal savior?”

When the jailer asked “what shall I do to be saved?” Acts 16 Did Paul say, “just confess Christ as your personal savior”?

Did Ananias tell Saul, “ just confess Christ as your personal Savior”? Acts 22:16

Does Acts 8:12 say they were saved by “confessing Christ as your personal Savior?”

Did Jesus say in Mark 16:16- “ He that confesses Christ as their personal Savior” shall be saved?

You have been deceived by a doctrine of man. Yes, you will find MANY men who teach that, but not God. 2 John 9 says if you do not abide in the doctrine of Christ, YOU DONT HAVE GOD.

 

[Karlon]

That would be great if it were true, but it is not. No where in the whole Bible was anyone saved by “confessing Christ as their personal savior”. You can’t just “make up” your own personal way to be saved. Nor was “confessing Christ as your personal savior” ever taught by Christ or any of his apostles.

When the Jews asked “What shall we do?” In Acts 2, did Peter tell them “confess Christ as your personal savior?”

When the jailer asked “what shall I do to be saved?” Acts 16 Did Paul say, “just confess Christ as your personal savior”?

Did Ananias tell Saul, “ just confess Christ as your personal Savior”? Acts 22:16

Does Acts 8:12 say they were saved by “confessing Christ as your personal Savior?”

Did Jesus say in Mark 16:16- “ He that confesses Christ as their personal Savior” shall be saved?

You have been deceived by a doctrine of man. Yes, you will find MANY men who teach that, but not God. 2 John 9 says if you do not abide in the doctrine of Christ, YOU DONT HAVE GOD.

no, i'm not making up a way to get to heaven. Romans 10:9- "that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth & shalt believe in thine heart....." i don't always give a full answer because sometimes, we all assume that something is easy enough to understand that you don't have to explain everything. plus i have big hands & fingers & it's a challenge to type. i'm sorry if i misled you. i thank you for your understanding on this issue. as b.a. Christians, we ask God in the name of His son, Jesus Christ, to have sins forgiven.

 

[Burn1986]

It’s funny how no one embraces the mystery in the gospel. Everyone that I’ve seen get saved is different. Also every instance of the baptism of the Homy Spirit is different. The Bible our guide but everyone experiences God differently. Each person must work out his own salvation.

 

[Beckworth]

Scripture reveals everyone must be indwelt by the Holy Spirit in order to be saved. (Rom. 8:9-11) Scripture also reveals that being indwelt does not automatically occur upon water baptism. Note, Acts 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7. However, those who submit to water baptism are promised they will at some point receive the Holy Spirit. (Acts 8:12-18, 19:1-7)

As to spiritual gifts they flow directly from the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. And serve the same purpose today as they did in the apostolic era; they reveal the truth that our Heavenly Father exists. He knows the hearts and minds of people and reveals such through miraculous means.

Scripture (Acts 2:38) does not contradict scripture (Acts 8:12-18) nor does one scripture negate the other. The Holy Spirit given to each person being baptized for the remission of sins was the Spirit living in that person—so men times called the “in dwelling” of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit that they received in Acts 8, was given in a different manner —the laying on of the apostles hands—and for a different reason. It enabled those receiving it to perform miracles, speak in tongues, prophesy, etc. you are comparing apples to oranges.

Acts 9:17-18 Ananias laid his hands on Saul and HEALED him, we know this because he regained his eyesight immediately. It immediately says Ananias baptized Saul and we know he got the Spirit that way because God said so in Acts 2:38.

Acts 19:1-7 is about some people who had been baptized with John’s baptism but not in the name of Jesus. Paul connects receiving the Spirit with Baptism because when he heard they had not received the Spirit, he immediately asked about their baptism. Why would he have asked that if the two are not related. They are. According to Acts 2:38. They should have received the Spirit when they were baptized but they had not, so Paul is asking about their baptism and finds out that the reason they had not received the Spirit was because they had only been baptized with John’s baptism—not Christ’s. That’s why they had not received the “gift of the Holy Spirit.” So they were immediately re-baptized, this time in the name of Jesus, they received the “gift of the Holy Spirit” just like Acts 2:38 said and THEN—Paul laid his hands on them and they received the portion of the Spirit’ that allowed them to perform spiritual gifts. They spoke in tongues and prophesied. This, also, along with Acts 8, proves that they were SAVED BEFORE they received the Holy Spirit that enabled them to have spiritual gifts. It is essential to understand that the Holy Spirit was given in different ways and for different purposes. All the scriptures must harmonize with all other scriptures or our theology is wrong. WE are the ones who are wrong—not God or His word. If we do not know all of God’s word or have a misunderstanding of God’s word, it will lead us to wrong conclusions.

 

[Burn1986]

Scripture (Acts 2:38) does not contradict scripture (Acts 8:12-18) nor does one scripture negate the other. The Holy Spirit given to each person being baptized for the remission of sins was the Spirit living in that person—so men times called the “in dwelling” of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit that they received in Acts 8, was given in a different manner —the laying on of the apostles hands—and for a different reason. It enabled those receiving it to perform miracles, speak in tongues, prophesy, etc. you are comparing apples to oranges.

Acts 9:17-18 Ananias laid his hands on Saul and HEALED him, we know this because he regained his eyesight immediately. It immediately says Ananias baptized Saul and we know he got the Spirit that way because God said so in Acts 2:38.

Acts 19:1-7 is about some people who had been baptized with John’s baptism but not in the name of Jesus. Paul connects receiving the Spirit with Baptism because when he heard they had not received the Spirit, he immediately asked about their baptism. Why would he have asked that if the two are not related. They are. According to Acts 2:38. They should have received the Spirit when they were baptized but they had not, so Paul is asking about their baptism and finds out that the reason they had not received the Spirit was because they had only been baptized with John’s baptism—not Christ’s. That’s why they had not received the “gift of the Holy Spirit.” So they were immediately re-baptized, this time in the name of Jesus, they received the “gift of the Holy Spirit” just like Acts 2:38 said and THEN—Paul laid his hands on them and they received the portion of the Spirit’ that allowed them to perform spiritual gifts. They spoke in tongues and prophesied. This, also, along with Acts 8, proves that they were SAVED BEFORE they received the Holy Spirit that enabled them to have spiritual gifts. It is essential to understand that the Holy Spirit was given in different ways and for different purposes. All the scriptures must harmonize with all other scriptures or our theology is wrong. WE are the ones who are wrong—not God or His word. If we do not know all of God’s word or have a misunderstanding of God’s word, it will lead us to wrong conclusions.

Will it lead us to wrong conclusions though? No one commenting on this thread has made any reference to ministering, witnessing, to anyone, or leading anyone in a prayer for salvation. Everyone on here is most likely saved. These recommendations will probably go no further than this thread.

 

[Beckworth]

no, i'm not making up a way to get to heaven. Romans 10:9- "that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth & shalt believe in thine heart....." i don't always give a full answer because sometimes, we all assume that something is easy enough to understand that you don't have to explain everything. plus i have big hands & fingers & it's a challenge to type. i'm sorry if i misled you. i thank you for your understanding on this issue. as b.a. Christians, we ask God in the name of His son, Jesus Christ, to have sins forgiven.

You are absolutely right that confession is necessary to salvation—but it doesn’t end there. Jesus never said confession “alone” saves us. It saves us—yes; but God also says faith saves us Acts 16:31. There is no mention of confession in that verse but I would be wrong if I taught that you can be saved by faith “alone” without confession, because God has said in Romans 10:8-10 that confession is necessary to salvation. So what am I to do? One verse says confession saves and another verse says faith saves. Is that a contradiction? Not at all. Because neither scripture says that that one thing “ALONE” saves, we can be safe in concluding that it takes BOTH to be saved. I think you would agree with me so far. Besides, Romans 10 says that Both belief and confession saves us. The Bible puts them together for salvation. But here is the problem. That is not ALL the Bible says about what is required to save us. If the Bible gives two requirements in different passages for salvation, then why can’t the Bible give us 4 passages of 4 different requirements for salvation? It’s not any harder to believe 4 than it is to believe 2 if God says it.

Any person who believes both belief and confession are necessary for salvation cannot believe in a “faith only” salvation. It’s impossible to be saved by “faith only” and be saved by confession, too. That’s ridiculous, isn’t it? But look—-Luke 13 says if we don’t “repent” we will perish. Acts 3:19 “Repent and be converted that your sins may be blotted out.” Acts 17:30- God COMMANDS all men to repent. ACTS 2:38- Repent and be baptized. Are you telling me that you do not believe repentance is necessary for salvation? It’s not mentioned in Romans 10:9. Does that mean it’s not necessary? It’s not in Acts 16:31. Am I to conclude that because it’s not in Actsc16:31 then it can’t be part of God’s plan of salvation?

I don’t know for sure, but I believe you probably do believe that repentance is necessary for salvation; but you see by saying ALL you have to do to be saved is confess Christ as your personal Savior cannot be true.

ALSO, the. Confession that’ is required in Romans 10 is not about accepting Christ as your personal savior. That is not taught anywhere in the Bible. Jesus asked Peter to confess him and Peter replied “you are the Christ, the son of God.” Matt. 16. Matt. 10:32 says we are to confess CHRIST—not as our personal savior but as the Son of God. We have an example of a new convert doing just that before he is baptized in Acts 8:37 the unscheduled said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” Our salvation is dependent on our faith in His divinity.

But there is yet ONE MORE THING God says is a requirement for salvation—and that is baptism. It is all over the New Testament. And whereas confession for salvation is only spoken of in a couple of places, baptism is everywhere. 1 Peter 3:21 God tells you in plain words, “BAPTISM DOES NOW SAVE US.” You can’t miss it unless you want to. God tells you and then Jesus tells you in Mark 16:16. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.” Salvation comes AFTER baptism, so says Jesus, not BEFORE baptism like men teach. ACTS 2:38, Acts 22:16, Acts 8:12. Acts 18:8. Are we to conclude baptism is not necessary just because it is not mentioned in Acts 16:31? Then to be consistent, we must conclude repentance is not necessary either. And confession is not essential either—it’s not in that verse. In fact, if that is the way you interpret scripture then I can prove that faith is not necessary to salvation because when the Jews asked Peter what must we do? Peter just said to “Repent and be baptized..”. He did not mention “faith” . So if baptism is not necessary because it is not in Acts 16:31, neither is confession and repentance necessary either. And even faith is not necessary. If not, why not??

 

[Beckworth]

Will it lead us to wrong conclusions though? No one commenting on this thread has made any reference to ministering, witnessing, to anyone, or leading anyone in a prayer for salvation. Everyone on here is most likely saved. These recommendations will probably go no further than this thread.

I was responding to a post that said confessing Christ as your personal savior saves you and you are heaven bound. That according to what I read in the scriptures will lead people to a wrong conclusion.

 

[Beckworth]

It’s funny how no one embraces the mystery in the gospel. Everyone that I’ve seen get saved is different. Also every instance of the baptism of the Homy Spirit is different. The Bible our guide but everyone experiences God differently. Each person must work out his own salvation.

That’s true but that doesn’t mean everyone will be saved—just because they think they are. Matt. 7 was all about religious people who had done lots of things in Jesus’s name but were lost because they did not obey Christ’s law. Saul of Tarsus was sincere and thought he was saved, but he was sincerely WRONG. We can’t afford to go by “feelings.” That’s like building your house on sand. The sure foundation is Jesus and his word. We must have book, chapter, and verse for the things we believe and practice.

Romans 12:2 “PROVE what is that good and acceptable will of God. Prove it with scripture. As Acts 17:11 says the Bereans “received the preaching of Paul and then SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES to see if those things were so.”

 

[Karlon]

You are absolutely right that confession is necessary to salvation—but it doesn’t end there. Jesus never said confession “alone” saves us. It saves us—yes; but God also says faith saves us Acts 16:31. There is no mention of confession in that verse but I would be wrong if I taught that you can be saved by faith “alone” without confession, because God has said in Romans 10:8-10 that confession is necessary to salvation. So what am I to do? One verse says confession saves and another verse says faith saves. Is that a contradiction? Not at all. Because neither scripture says that that one thing “ALONE” saves, we can be safe in concluding that it takes BOTH to be saved. I think you would agree with me so far. Besides, Romans 10 says that Both belief and confession saves us. The Bible puts them together for salvation. But here is the problem. That is not ALL the Bible says about what is required to save us. If the Bible gives two requirements in different passages for salvation, then why can’t the Bible give us 4 passages of 4 different requirements for salvation? It’s not any harder to believe 4 than it is to believe 2 if God says it.

Any person who believes both belief and confession are necessary for salvation cannot believe in a “faith only” salvation. It’s impossible to be saved by “faith only” and be saved by confession, too. That’s ridiculous, isn’t it? But look—-Luke 13 says if we don’t “repent” we will perish. Acts 3:19 “Repent and be converted that your sins may be blotted out.” Acts 17:30- God COMMANDS all men to repent. ACTS 2:38- Repent and be baptized. Are you telling me that you do not believe repentance is necessary for salvation? It’s not mentioned in Romans 10:9. Does that mean it’s not necessary? It’s not in Acts 16:31. Am I to conclude that because it’s not in Actsc16:31 then it can’t be part of God’s plan of salvation?

I don’t know for sure, but I believe you probably do believe that repentance is necessary for salvation; but you see by saying ALL you have to do to be saved is confess Christ as your personal Savior cannot be true.

ALSO, the. Confession that’ is required in Romans 10 is not about accepting Christ as your personal savior. That is not taught anywhere in the Bible. Jesus asked Peter to confess him and Peter replied “you are the Christ, the son of God.” Matt. 16. Matt. 10:32 says we are to confess CHRIST—not as our personal savior but as the Son of God. We have an example of a new convert doing just that before he is baptized in Acts 8:37 the unscheduled said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” Our salvation is dependent on our faith in His divinity.

But there is yet ONE MORE THING God says is a requirement for salvation—and that is baptism. It is all over the New Testament. And whereas confession for salvation is only spoken of in a couple of places, baptism is everywhere. 1 Peter 3:21 God tells you in plain words, “BAPTISM DOES NOW SAVE US.” You can’t miss it unless you want to. God tells you and then Jesus tells you in Mark 16:16. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.” Salvation comes AFTER baptism, so says Jesus, not BEFORE baptism like men teach. ACTS 2:38, Acts 22:16, Acts 8:12. Acts 18:8. Are we to conclude baptism is not necessary just because it is not mentioned in Acts 16:31? Then to be consistent, we must conclude repentance is not necessary either. And confession is not essential either—it’s not in that verse. In fact, if that is the way you interpret scripture then I can prove that faith is not necessary to salvation because when the Jews asked Peter what must we do? Peter just said to “Repent and be baptized..”. He did not mention “faith” . So if baptism is not necessary because it is not in Acts 16:31, neither is confession and repentance necessary either. And even faith is not necessary. If not, why not??

you took lot's of time for your posting & i appreciate it. cogitate on this: a person receives & ANSWERS the call from the Holy Spirit to be saved. (everyone will receive a call from the H.S.) said person dies 2 minutes later without having a chance to be baptized. said person is heaven bound, no doubt at all!

 

[Beckworth]

They have no case, at least not according to the Bible. Acts 10:44-48, While Peter was still speaking these words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. Vs45. And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, (why were they amazed?) because the GIFT of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also, (why or because) Vs46, For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,

Vs47, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have (past tense) received the Holy Spirit as we did, can he? Vs48, And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days."

It is extremely clear that the Gentiles heard the word of God first, believed and then they were water baptized. Also, another poster brought up the thief on the cross who was saved without being water baptized. Since the thief was saved before why in the New Testament would God make it harder to be saved by requiring water baptism after believing?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto[/QUOTE


First, you are assuming that Cornelius and his house were saved when they believed or that they were saved by the Holy Spirit baptism. Neither is true. There is nothing in the text that suggests this, except your own belief. Many other scriptures must be examined to see whether that is true or not. I have explored these questions in other posts on this site. Water baptism was commanded here by Peter. That harmonizes with 1 Peter 3:21 which says that water baptism saves us—not faith only. Why would Peter write 1 Peter 3:21 if he believed Cornelius and his house were saved when they believed? That makes no sense! Common sense tells us that can’t be true. 1 Peter 3:21 is simple and plain. God is not trying to “ trick” us. Holy Spirit baptism was not used to “save” people from their sins—ever! Acts 8 shows us people—both men and women believed and were baptized BEFORE the apostles came there and laid their hands on them giving them the Holy Spirit. That’s PROOF that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was not given to people to save them. Now you give me a scripture that TELLS me that it did. . Cornelius and those gentiles did exactly what Jesus said to do in Mark 16:16- Believe and be baptized and you shall be baptized. Your theology contradicts what Jesus said to do in Mark 16:16 and what Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 also contradicts James 2:24- NOT by faith only. and many other such scriptures. That is not in the doctrine of Christ. 2 John 9.

Did you know the New Testament is called the last will and testament of Jesus Christ ?Just like any “will” today, it is only in force AFTER a man dies. This is exactly what Hebrews 9:16-17 says about Christ. As long as he was alive, His Will was not in effect. But once he died—-
A-man who has a million dollars may spend his money any way he chooses while he is alive. He can waste it, save it or give it away to whoever He wants. But once that man is dead, his will comes into effect and then no one can get any of the money unless they abide by the terms of the will. We all understand this. This is what Hebrews 9 is saying. While Jesus was alive He could grant salvation to anyone He pleases. So He saved the man who was let down through a roof; He saved a thief on the cross. His “will” that made baptism a requirement was not in effect. But once He died, his will is now in effect and anyone who wants salvation must abide by the terms in the “will.” The salvation of the thief proves nothing. He lived under the old law of tge Hews—not under the new law of Christ.

 

[Wansvic]

It’s funny how no one embraces the mystery in the gospel. Everyone that I’ve seen get saved is different. Also every instance of the baptism of the Homy Spirit is different. The Bible our guide but everyone experiences God differently. Each person must work out his own salvation.

There is only one way everyone to be saved:
Jude 3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints,

 

[bluto]

I am not "assuming" anything. Your the "assumer" around here. Here is what Greek Scholar A.T. Robertson says at Acts 10:47, "
Verse 47
Can any man forbid the water? (Μητ το υδωρ δυνατα κωλυσα τισ?). The negative μητ expects the answer No. The evidence was indisputable that these Gentiles were converted and so were entitled to be baptized. See the similar idiom in Luke 6:39 (NAS)

Again, they were saved first and then water baptized. Here, I will give you another example that proves me correct and you wrong regarding the Apostle Paul. Acts 9:17-18, "And Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me s that you may receive your sight, AND BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT."

Vs18, "And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he arose and was water baptized;" Look, the thief on the cross became saved because he repented/admitted that he was guilty and deserved to die on that cross. Jesus, who can read the heart told the thief that he would be in Paradise with Him. Thief did not jump off that cross to get water baptized. And if you think about it, (which you haven't) your making it harder for New Testament people to be saved as opposed to the Old Testament by making water baptism a condition to get saved. Read what the gospel is according to the Apostle Paul at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Wansvic]

Scripture (Acts 2:38) does not contradict scripture (Acts 8:12-18) nor does one scripture negate the other. The Holy Spirit given to each person being baptized for the remission of sins was the Spirit living in that person—so men times called the “in dwelling” of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit that they received in Acts 8, was given in a different manner —the laying on of the apostles hands—and for a different reason. It enabled those receiving it to perform miracles, speak in tongues, prophesy, etc. you are comparing apples to oranges.

Acts 9:17-18 Ananias laid his hands on Saul and HEALED him, we know this because he regained his eyesight immediately. It immediately says Ananias baptized Saul and we know he got the Spirit that way because God said so in Acts 2:38.

Acts 19:1-7 is about some people who had been baptized with John’s baptism but not in the name of Jesus. Paul connects receiving the Spirit with Baptism because when he heard they had not received the Spirit, he immediately asked about their baptism. Why would he have asked that if the two are not related. They are. According to Acts 2:38. They should have received the Spirit when they were baptized but they had not, so Paul is asking about their baptism and finds out that the reason they had not received the Spirit was because they had only been baptized with John’s baptism—not Christ’s. That’s why they had not received the “gift of the Holy Spirit.” So they were immediately re-baptized, this time in the name of Jesus, they received the “gift of the Holy Spirit” just like Acts 2:38 said and THEN—Paul laid his hands on them and they received the portion of the Spirit’ that allowed them to perform spiritual gifts. They spoke in tongues and prophesied. This, also, along with Acts 8, proves that they were SAVED BEFORE they received the Holy Spirit that enabled them to have spiritual gifts. It is essential to understand that the Holy Spirit was given in different ways and for different purposes. All the scriptures must harmonize with all other scriptures or our theology is wrong. WE are the ones who are wrong—not God or His word. If we do not know all of God’s word or have a misunderstanding of God’s word, it will lead us to wrong conclusions.

I'm not sure where the idea comes from that a "portion of the Spirit was given that allowed them to perform spiritual gifts."

All detailed conversion accounts indicate the exact point people were actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It was identifiable.

Speaking in tongues is the evidence that a person has received the entrance of the Holy Ghost into their body. Scripture specifies this in the Book of Acts where the birth of the NT church is recorded. (Acts 2:4) What occurred was prophesied by the Prophet Joel. (Acts 2:16) Peter specifically stated, "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:33

Peter states that receiving the Holy Ghost is a gift that is available to all those whom Jesus’ calls. (Acts 2:38)

The initial message on the Day of Pentecost included the promise that those who repented and submitted to water baptism would receive the Holy Ghost. Upon study of scripture it becomes clear that the experience does not happen spontaneously in water baptism. The sequence differs, but as promised the experience happens. (Acts 2:4, 10:43-48) Keep in mind the 120 in the upper room received the indwelling of the Holy Ghost prior to being water baptized in the name of Jesus.

The Samaritans, half Jewish and half Gentile, receive Peter’s instructions through Philip the evangelist. (Acts 8:12-17) The group is presented with the gospel message and submits to water baptism in the name of Jesus. However, Philip realizes they did not receive the Holy Ghost. STOP. Ask yourself how Philip knew the group had not received the Holy Ghost? Clearly there is external evidence of the infilling.

Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."
In this portion of scripture it is revealed when Simon saw that the Holy Ghost was given through the laying on of hands he offered money. (Acts 8:18) Again, ask yourself how Simon knew someone had received the Holy Ghost after having hands laid upon them. These scripture verses debunk the idea that everyone receives the Holy Ghost the moment they believe the gospel message of Jesus.


Lastly, the Apostle Paul comes across disciples at Ephesus. He asks, “Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?” If there was no identifiable sign, how were the people expected to know if they had received the Holy Ghost? Again his question debunks the idea that everyone gets the Holy Ghost the moment they believe the gospel.

Further, Paul instructs the disciples concerning what is required:
“And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized?" Paul knows those who've heard of the NT water baptism in Jesus' name should be familiar with the promise presented at Pentecost.

And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (water baptism) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve...
Notice after Paul provided the disciples with accurate information concerning the correct way to water baptize, and the need to receive the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in tongues he stayed to teach others as well. (Acts 19:8) But many believed him not and spoke evil of that way so he departed from them. (Acts 19:3-9)

The scripture is conclusive. Everyone is supposed to receive the Holy Ghost and has done so as evidenced by speaking in tongues. I don't believe it's a coincidence that God chose tongues as proof He's taken up residence in the believer. "For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame;" (James 3:7-8) However, with God all things are possible. (Matt 19:26)

In addition, on the Day of Pentecost a flame resembling a cloven tongue appeared above each person when the Spirit entered their body and they began speaking in tongues.

The visual flame accompanying the initial speaking in tongues indicated the presence of God had filled the body. The born again Christian’s body is God’s tabernacle. Notice the OT parallel below:

• The Israelites knew when God was present in the darkness of night by the pillar of flame that appeared above the Old Testament tabernacle. (Exodus 25:8, 22, 29:43,40:34-38) The flame was the undeniable evidence that God’s Holy Spirit was present.

The cloven tongue implies that biblical tongues manifests in two forms.

• The cloven tongue appears to represent that there are two types of tongues: One as the initial evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and two; the Spiritual gift of tongues.

 

[Wansvic]

...YToday, we as Christians, receive the “GIFT” of the Holy Spirit when we are baptized for the remission of sins as Peter says in Acts 2:38. It is a gift from God to every Christian who obeys Christ in Baptism. You are not promised the Spirit in any other way... .”

The idea that a person cannot receive the Holy Spirit outside of water baptism is not accurate. Scripture does reveal both are necessary; however they are experienced separately. Many scriptures prove this point. Consider Jesus' words on the subject, "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13

Jesus also said, "Except a man is born of water and of Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3:5) All detailed NT rebirth accounts include both water and Spirit. Water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin, and being indwelt by the Holy Ghost as revealed through the sign of speaking in tongues.

 

[Cameron143]

The idea that a person cannot receive the Holy Spirit outside of water baptism is not accurate. Scripture does reveal both are necessary; however they are experienced separately. Many scriptures prove this point. Consider Jesus' words on the subject, "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13

Jesus also said, "Except a man is born of water and of Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3:5) All detailed NT rebirth accounts include both water and Spirit. Water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin, and being indwelt by the Holy Ghost as revealed through the sign of speaking in tongues.

Have you considered that water in John 3 is a reference to the word of God given what 1 Peter 1:23 says?