Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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MerSee

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Magenta said:
I see those passages more as evidence of God's sovereignty .:)

People who hold that erroneous doctrine of free will sure might have a problem reconciling them with their un-Biblical ideas.

Perhaps they would tell us again what an unjust tyrant they believe God to be.
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Romans 8:31-35
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who is against us? 32 He that spared not even his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how hath he not also, with him, given us all things? 33 Who shall accuse against the elect of God? God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that shall condemn? Christ Jesus that died, yea that is risen also again; who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? or distress? or famine? or nakedness? or danger? or persecution? or the sword?
 
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Rufus

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Genez said:
God chooses to bypass man's flesh by grace.
Once the soul is made free to believe or reject?
Then that soul will know that his choice was His own, and not something God imposed upon him.

Only crazy gods make people to reject them, so to condemn them by making them unable to choose for what's right...

What you are doing is not thinking clearly, but wanting to feel a sense of resolve, because the problem makes you feel not smart enough to figure it out.

Jumping to erroneous 'dogmatic' conclusions is where you be.
Calvinism was an attempt to resolve a deep paradox.
It found a way to make up one's mind in a manner to eliminate the destabilizing effects of ambiguity that some find too painful to tolerate
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God didn't make anyone to reject him. He made man in his own image. Adam's sin lost lost the freedom he had FROM sin which made him and all his progeny unable to choose what is right. Adam's sin changed his nature, which man is not able fix. No one mere mortal can change what they are to become something they are not. Not even God can do that!
 
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Rufus

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Genez said:
They could not figure a way that God can take a depraved person (born that way) and make him able to choose as he desires to freed of his depravity master, the flesh.

They failed top realize that the soul is a slave. Not inherently depraved. That when the flesh is the master, the soul can not do right. And, if God can bind that master? (that is what the grace we are saved by is for)..
That some souls made free of the sin nature's power over the soul? Would actually choose to reject God after being made free to choose!

They fail to put it together according to the example we have with the angels experienced. For Satan was created perfect and with great wisdom. When Satan fell? It was not as if was like us who were born with a fallen nature.

Yes, a perfectly free mind can reject God! They can not see it.
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The soul is enslaved to what, if not evil, wickedness, sin? And where is written that God frees all souls of the sin nature? Where is it even written that God abolished the sin nature in his saints?
 
Mem

Mem

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Magenta said:
It didn't seem clear to me who you were referring to... Since you mentioned those as being no less lost and finding hope in the law of Christ...
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I don't subscribe to the idea that the ungodly have no choice but to be anything other than ungodly. Turning to Christ for salvation, which is their need to do, is anything but ungodly, even if it is nothing near godlike.
 
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Rufus

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Cameron143 said:
They certainly became capable of evil, but I doubt they saw themselves as evil. After all, they each blamed someone else for their sin.
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Exactly right! Neither one of the owned their sin! They were criminals who stood before the Judge and basically pleaded NOT GUILTY! That was the first recorded even in history that clearly demonstrated the deceitfulness of sin as both A&E were conned themselves into thinking they weren't morally culpable.
 
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Rufus

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Mem said:
I don't subscribe to the idea that the ungodly have no choice but to be anything other than ungodly. Turning to Christ for salvation, which is their need to do, is anything but ungodly, even if it is nothing near godlike.
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Bad Trees cannot bear good fruit. And the sinful mind is hostile towards and those controlled by the sin nature cannot please him.
 
Mem

Mem

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Rufus said:
Bad Trees cannot bear good fruit. And the sinful mind is hostile towards and those controlled by the sin nature cannot please him.
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This fact should deter those that would try to please God with a sinful mind, some still try. For example, if I were to think that exterminating all infidels would please God, I should think again. However, if I change my mind...which is the epitome of the term metanoia, or in Englis repentance...to think upon things above, that is, toward the actual things of God... well, that becomes a horse of a different color altogether.
 
S

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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Everlasting-Grace said:
No
we are already saved now we are living out our salvation
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You mean we're saved and being saved and will be saved and while being saved we're working together with God to accomplish our salvation, which eventuates in we will be saved, correct?

Everlasting-Grace said:
We do not and can not do Anything to keep ourself saved
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If you agree with the above, I may agree with you.

But, I'm cautious of arbitrarily accepting this because it spreads at minimum to some who are not saved but think they are and will receive a rude awakening at some point.
 
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Rufus

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Mem said:
I don't subscribe to the idea that the ungodly have no choice but to be anything other than ungodly. Turning to Christ for salvation, which is their need to do, is anything but ungodly, even if it is nothing near godlike.
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The ungodly are ungodly because it's their nature -- a nature that they are powerless to change. Even God cannot change his nature! So what makes you believe that man can change his? Have you never read:

Jer 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.
NIV

And,

1 Sam 24:13a
13 As the old saying goes, 'From evildoers come evil deeds...
NIV

And,

Luke 6:45
45 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart.
NIV

And,

Matt 12:34-35
34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.?
ESV
 
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Rufus

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Mem said:
This fact should deter those that would try to please God with a sinful mind, some still try. For example, if I were to think that exterminating all infidels would please God, I should think again. However, if I change my mind...which is the epitome of the term metanoia, or in Englis repentance...to think upon things above, that is, toward the actual things of God... well, that becomes a horse of a different color altogether.
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Actually that fact should make one think of what HE IS in his essence? When you were in Adam, what were you in your essence (nature)?
 
Genez

Genez

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Cameron143 said:
You are dishonest in how you represent what other people have stated. And you have people able to get saved through the application of their conscience and will. You don't even need the Holy Spirit.
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Without the Holy Spirit applying the grace needed?
Needed to free your soul from your flesh?
It would have been impossible for you to express an application of your conscience and will.
For the flesh dominated over the soul before regeneration, and the flesh is always opposed to God!

What you have accepted is a rationale of TULIP that fits right in with those who suffer with a sense of false humility.

Well?
How did the angels choose?
With an application of their conscience and will!
There is nothing wrong with that!
God is not arrogant!
He lets you choose.

Its sad what some Christians allow them selves to get themselves trapped into.

"There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death."

Proverbs 14:12​


Some people feel good that they can think so low of themself!
 
Genez

Genez

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PaulThomson said:
Firstly, the law included painful sanctions against the most egregious destructive behaviours. This slowed down the leaven leavening the entire Israelite nation.
Secondly, because God had not been reckoning men's sins against them before the law, they were presuming God did not care about sin.
Thirdly, without a God-ordained standard of goodness, men were comparing themselves with others and measuring themselves among themselves. and self-righteousness and pride were growing, and despising and mistreatment of the "less righteous" was increasing.
Among other things, the Law put the brakes on these three issues.
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Cameron gave you a thumbs up?
But, you were proving my point that he claimed was not so.

Man who is fallen can not intrinsically know what good and evil is without God making it clear what is good, and what is evil.
Being fallen, Adam and Eve had nothing to think with. The denouncement that their being naked was bad, therefore had to
come from an external source.

Go figure.....
 
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