Total Depravity

[posthuman]

Apart from God’s gracious initiative in bringing His Son, the Holy Spirit, and the inspired gospel appeal, no one can merit salvation or consistently seek to obey God in a way that will attain his own righteousness.

what exactly changed with the advent of Christ that makes salvation possible?

Does anyone merit salvation now? Does anyone consistently seek Him? do they do this while being dead in their sin or after having been made alive to Him?

 

[posthuman]

responsible (response-able)

this is not what responsible means.

it means able to be responded to, not able to respond.

if someone is at 'responsible' for something, it means they can be held to account for it ((their actions can be justifiably responded to)), not that they themselves necessarily have any capability to act.

i am responsible for my bills. that doesn't imply i am in complete control of my financial future.

 

[HeIsHere]

what exactly changed with the advent of Christ that makes salvation possible?

Does anyone merit salvation now? Does anyone consistently seek Him? do they do this while being dead in their sin or after having been made alive to Him?

Dead in Sin ≠ Total Inability

Much this doctrine comes from misapplying specific Scriptures to humanity in general, scripture is ripped out of its inherent historical boundaries and forced into the reader’s time frame.

But if you can find that decree... God has decreed that all mankind would be born with “Total Inability” to respond willingly to the gospel?

I will consider it.

 

[HeIsHere]

this is not what responsible means.

it means able to be responded to, not able to respond.

if someone is at 'responsible' for something, it means they can be held to account for it ((their actions can be justifiably responded to)), not that they themselves necessarily have any capability to act.

i am responsible for my bills. that doesn't imply i am in complete control of my financial future.

He was playing with words, relax.

 

[Hakawaka]

Thank you for that... you know what I find interesting is that it contradicts that belief and/or faith is enough to be saved because prior to Acts 10 and 11, Cornelius already believed in God.

Yeah Cornelius needed to believe the Gospel. Even today, there are many who believe the Gospel but fall away. The parable of the sower Jesus mentions this. Some believe for a while but then fall away due to persecution, worldly troubles etc.

 

[HeIsHere]

If God alone has the power that enables a man to ‘Come, believe and live’, yet withholds that power, no intellectually honest person can assert that God ‘desires’ that deliberately unassisted man to be saved.

 

[posthuman]

On what basis do Calvinists rest their presumption that, as a consequence of the sin of another, God has decreed that all mankind would be born with “Total Inability” to respond willingly to the gospel?
(soteriology 101)

'calvanists' is incorrect language.
as Magenta pointed out quite early in this thread, original sin is orthodoxy, dating back to the church fathers far before the reformation.

so, on what basis does orthodoxy say all descended from Adam have sin and death because of the transgression of Adam? on the basis of Romans 5 which says so explicitly.

on what basis does orthodoxy say man dead in his sin who does not seek God is unable to respond to Christ without a supernatural work of God? on the basis of Ephesians 2, which also explicitly says the faith and grace we have is not of ourselves but from God - to which also 1 Corinthians 13 testifies, calling faith a gift.

this is a conversation that has gone on for 2,000 years and i doubt we have much to add to it

 

[Hakawaka]

unfortunately no, because even if we presume it is a genuine supernatural salvation experience, the counterargument is ((z.b. 1 Cor 3:15)) that those warnings speak of a loss of glory and reward, not of salvation.

salvation which can be lost isn't actually salvation - it's only an illusion of salvation, a hope without basis, waiting to be revealed as damnation.

Salvation is in Christ, can we agree on that? Those who are in the true vine Jesus are saved, those who arent, are not saved.

Salvation is in a person, its Jesus Christ, He is the resurrection, the way, the truth, the life, the true temple, the true Israel. Salvation isn't car keys you lose under the couch. Salvation isn't a a bus ticket

 

[posthuman]

Yeah Cornelius needed to believe the Gospel. Even today, there are many who believe the Gospel but fall away. The parable of the sower Jesus mentions this. Some believe for a while but then fall away due to persecution, worldly troubles etc.

the argument will be, and so they do not produce fruit - not that they become a plant from a different seed

 

[Hakawaka]

If God alone has the power that enables a man to ‘Come, believe and live’, yet withholds that power, no intellectually honest person can assert that God ‘desires’ that deliberately unassisted man to be saved.

Yes this is exactly it. God is angry at Himself in the calvinist system. They will cry misrepresentation. But that is the logical conclusion. God calls people to repent, gets angry at them for not repenting, punishes them for not repenting, but wait, the reason they don't repent is because God has cursed them with total depravity and refuses to give them the grace to fix it!

 

[posthuman]

Salvation is in Christ, can we agree on that? Those who are in the true vine Jesus are saved, those who arent, are not saved.

Salvation is in a person, its Jesus Christ, He is the resurrection, the way, the truth, the life, the true temple, the true Israel. Salvation isn't car keys you lose under the couch. Salvation isn't a a bus ticket

Amen

Salvation is Christ digging up my corpse, not me clawing my way out of my casket.

and it is a supernatural work of God, of which i have no doubt in His ability to complete, not my work

 

[posthuman]

Yes this is exactly it. God is angry at Himself in the calvinist system. They will cry misrepresentation. But that is the logical conclusion. God calls people to repent, gets angry at them for not repenting, punishes them for not repenting, but wait, the reason they don't repent is because God has cursed them with total depravity and refuses to give them the grace to fix it!

how is it Satan is condemned?
does anyone expect him to repent?

in Job, is there any doubt what the outcome will be? or is it a judicial setting, where Satan is allowed to present his case, and the evidence entered into the testimony?

or even - the testing of Christ. was it ever possible He would be found lacking? that in the Lamb of God a blemish would be found?

is God's omniscient forbearance inquisitive or demonstrative?

 

[posthuman]

If God alone has the power that enables a man to ‘Come, believe and live’, yet withholds that power, no intellectually honest person can assert that God ‘desires’ that deliberately unassisted man to be saved.

i wish every bee that lands in my water barrel would not drown. but only the ones i lift out will live.

the difference between all the bees in the world and we as humans is that every single one of us sins, but only a few bees find themselves in the hazard of my rainbarrel.

 

[Hakawaka]

Amen

Salvation is Christ digging up my corpse, not me clawing my way out of my casket.

and it is a supernatural work of God, of which i have no doubt in His ability to complete, not my work

This sounds warm and fuzzy until you break down what you REALLY believe to the people. That your next door neighbor has no hope whatsoever, that God decreed all the sin and wickedness in the world to take place, that God condemns people who are unable to do otherwise. But that is usually kept under wraps for a long time.

I feel like you are playing right into the atheist hands. You are telling them they are wicked, they cant repent, only God can do that for them, but guess what? Now that you've told em that you have guaranteed they will never repent if they believe what you just told them. Thats the sad part about determinism.

Do you not see how this sort of a decree calvinists believe in, is more like a decree of the devil? The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, my Father isn't like this. I know God well enough to say that for sure. He doesn't create people just to torment them.

 

[posthuman]

i wish every bee that lands in my water barrel would not drown. but only the ones i lift out will live.

the difference between all the bees in the world and we as humans is that every single one of us sins, but only a few bees find themselves in the hazard of my rainbarrel.

maybe i am only speaking of Christ - the axehead that fell in the river Jordan, the prophet with a branch lifted to the surface, but he bade the servant, reach out and take it

 

[HeIsHere]

'calvanists' is incorrect language.
as Magenta pointed out quite early in this thread, original sin is orthodoxy, dating back to the church fathers far before the reformation.

so, on what basis does orthodoxy say all descended from Adam have sin and death because of the transgression of Adam? on the basis of Romans 5 which says so explicitly.

on what basis does orthodoxy say man dead in his sin who does not seek God is unable to respond to Christ without a supernatural work of God? on the basis of Ephesians 2, which also explicitly says the faith and grace we have is not of ourselves but from God - to which also 1 Corinthians 13 testifies, calling faith a gift.

this is a conversation that has gone on for 2,000 years and i doubt we have much to add to it

Original sin as a concept which exists and is understood today, Augustine wrote on extensively and formulated it into a doctrine of the church.
Depends again on how you define "original sin" Augustine argued it was biologically transmitted and people are born sinful.

 

[posthuman]

This sounds warm and fuzzy until you break down what you REALLY believe to the people. That your next door neighbor has no hope whatsoever, that God decreed all the sin and wickedness in the world to take place, that God condemns people who are unable to do otherwise. But that is usually kept under wraps for a long time.

I feel like you are playing right into the atheist hands. You are telling them they are wicked, they cant repent, only God can do that for them, but guess what? Now that you've told em that you have guaranteed they will never repent if they believe what you just told them. Thats the sad part about determinism.

Do you not see how this sort of a decree calvinists believe in, is more like a decree of the devil? The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, my Father isn't like this. I know God well enough to say that for sure. He doesn't create people just to torment them.

the reality is that the result of the free will of everyone is sin and death, worthy of damnation.

just because i do not reach out and save a bee in my barrel from drowning does not mean i caused it to fly into the water in the first place.

 

[posthuman]

Original sin as a concept which exists and is understood today, Augustine wrote on extensively and formulated it into a doctrine of the church.
Depends again on how you define "original sin" Augustine argued it was biologically transmitted and people are born sinful.

why was Christ born of a virgin?

Augustine has a very good answer. blood.

 

[HeIsHere]

why was Christ born of a virgin?

Augustine has a very good answer. blood.

He was not wrong on everything.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes this is exactly it. God is angry at Himself in the calvinist system. They will cry misrepresentation. But that is the logical conclusion. God calls people to repent, gets angry at them for not repenting, punishes them for not repenting, but wait, the reason they don't repent is because God has cursed them with total depravity and refuses to give them the grace to fix it!

Indeed, when you strip it down this is the logical consequence.

It has to be an emotional attachment, indoctrination or something (unsure) it really makes no logical nor biblical sense.

As I have been told, a proper reading of the bible, without any presuppositions will never make you a calvinist.