Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Genez]

Good news then, more than Noah found favor with God.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

See it states "he walked faithfully with God" not God enabled him to walk faithfully.

God gives the strength needed to walk faithfully with God... We choose to walk faithfully. He enables us to fulfill that desire.

Grace is enabling power from God to counter our inherent weaknesses because of our fallen state.


But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. "

2 Corinthians 12:9

grace and peace ..............

 

[Mem]

Kinda like how fools hate knowledge and this is why they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, not wanting to retain God in their knowledge. Only the utterly self-deceived believe they can "extinguish" the Spirit.

I'd agree that The Spirit of God is inextinguishable, but the human spirit is not. Not by any other human anyway. That is no other man, nor woman, can extinguish my spirit even if they try to do so by destroying my body. However, the question whether the lust for power that is inherent in my flesh can work to extinguish my spirit remains. We are told of the fruit of the flesh; envy, malice, etc., and the fruit of the spirit; love, patience, etc. So then, is it reasonable to conclude that if anyone loves, this comes from his spirit and if anyone hates this comes from his flesh?

 

[PaulThomson]

You didn't answer my question: Can you point to any text in the bible that speaks flatteringly of fools? Or conversely, can you point to any passage that speaks poorly of the [godly] wise, as opposed to the worldly wise?

So...the "ungodly" in the LXX = "fools"? And yet, the ungody/fools are not generally referring to the natural man, to unregenerate sinners? Then to whom?

For you info, I have known since I was a babe in Christ that a "fool" in a biblical sense is at bare MINIMUM a highly morally deficient person. And this the way most conservative Evangelicals understand how the word is used.

Fool applies to anyone behaving as a fool at any given moment, whether a regenerate person of an unregenerate one.

 

[HeIsHere]

1Thess5:19 Typically considered to be the Holy Spirit to which I'd agree. Christian are commanded not to extinguish the [Holy] Spirit

Do you take this to mean that the Holy Spirit within a person can be extinguished (put out) and thereby will also be un-justified?

 

[Magenta]

I'd agree that The Spirit of God is inextinguishable, but the human spirit is not. Not by any other human anyway. That is no other man, nor woman, can extinguish my spirit even if they try to do so by destroying my body. However, the question whether the lust for power that is inherent in my flesh can work to extinguish my spirit remains. We are told of the fruit of the flesh; envy, malice, etc., and the fruit of the spirit; love, patience, etc. So then, is it reasonable to conclude that if anyone loves, this comes from his spirit and if anyone hates this comes from his flesh?

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has
been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

9 This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world,
so that we might live through Him. 10 And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that
He loved us and sent His Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but
if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we
remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the
Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

15 If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we
have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love
abides in God, and God in him. 17 In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may
have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment.
The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because He first loved us.

20 If anyone says, “I love God,” but hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not
love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And we
have this commandment from Him: Whoever loves God must love his brother as well.

1 John 4:18

 

[Rufus]

Hey, Magnetta, here's another great passage that clearly implies the captivity of man, and that you might want to use in your collage:

Eccl 8:8
8 No man has power over the wind to contain it;
so no one has power over the day of his death.
As no one is discharged in time of war,
so wickedness will not release those who practice it.
NIV

There are very profound implications to this passage. The last two lines in part "b" are parallel to the first two lines in part "a". So...when "a" says that no man has power over the wind or over the time of his death, this idea of impotency or powerlessness carries right over to "b", since this part of the passage is making a conclusion to the first part. Just as men cannot discharge themselves during a time of war (implying helplessness), so, too, those who practice wickedness ("wickedness" being personified here) cannot be released from it! Those who practice wickedness or evil are clearly under its power. Totally helpless!

"Wickedness" here could be likened to a slave master like Pharaoh...or Satan (the Strong Man)! The only way the Wicked are going to be released is by God's supernatural power which he exerted against Pharaoh, for example, when he freed the Hebrew slaves from their evil master in Egypt, or by the power to which Christ alluded when he spoke of plundering the Strong Man's house, whereby the Strong Man is tied up so that he can be robbed of his possessions (Mat 12:29).

 

[Rufus]

Good news then, more than Noah found favor with God.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

See it states "he walked faithfully with God" not God enabled him to walk faithfully.

But that interpretation would contradict numerous other passages that speak to man's utter lack of power over their sin nature (within), the world (without) and the Strong Man who rules the world. You're assuming that Noah and his family had this great power instead of understanding the passage in the the larger context of all God's Word and what it says about man.

 

[Rufus]

I'd agree that The Spirit of God is inextinguishable, but the human spirit is not. Not by any other human anyway. That is no other man, nor woman, can extinguish my spirit even if they try to do so by destroying my body. However, the question whether the lust for power that is inherent in my flesh can work to extinguish my spirit remains. We are told of the fruit of the flesh; envy, malice, etc., and the fruit of the spirit; love, patience, etc. So then, is it reasonable to conclude that if anyone loves, this comes from his spirit and if anyone hates this comes from his flesh?

Reasonable conclusion. Just remember: It's not in Man's DNA to naturally love God and serve Him.

 

[HeIsHere]

But that interpretation would contradict numerous other passages that speak to man's utter lack of power over their sin nature (within), the world (without) and the Strong Man who rules the world. You're assuming that Noah and his family had this great power instead of understanding the passage in the the larger context of all God's Word and what it says about man.

Seems to me you are layering in more than is in the text.

 

[Magenta]

Seems to me you are layering in more than is in the text.

Seems to me you ignore what is explicitly written, such as everything we have is given to us.

 

[studier]

The term "Trinity" isn't in the bible either...how should we describe the essence of God and what he is? Isn't the CONCEPT of the Trinity in scripture or have men dreamed that up as well?

Don't you still have your work cut out for you figuring out Prov1 language, dealing with all of your inserted points into it, and telling us how all of this Scripturally connects to the natural man? Guess not.

The Trinity argument once again. The word "Trinity" although not used in the Bible, is used to refer to the concept of the triune Godhead and is widely accepted. Therefore every other word or phrase not in the Bible that is used to refer to a concept in the Bible is also acceptable. There are a few fallacies here. I'll leave it to you to identify them.

I may be fine with discussing the "Trinity" concept with you because we likely could come to sufficient agreement on what it means.

This would not mean I'd accept your terminology or definitions of other terminology.

Are you denying that there is such a thing as spiritual death? How did Adam die on the day he sinned?

I think it's very clear that I have been disagreeing with your concept of "spiritual death" for 100's of posts now. As for the terminology itself, it's not a phrase used in the Bible, and it's thus open to selective definitions, and it's thus virtually worthless for our discussion.

What we're essentially arguing is the meaning of the phrase itself. What's the point of agreeing on the phrase while disagreeing on its meaning?

Back to Scripture.

Have you never read:

Prov 1:22
22 "How long will you simple ones love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?
NIV

Why yes I have.

I've read this also:

NKJ 1 Tim 6:20-21 O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge-- 21 by professing it some have strayed concerning the faith. Grace be with you. Amen.

And this:

4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
(Prov. 26:4-5 NKJ)

It's one of the Scriptures I had in mind when I began putting more effort into reading past your prolific ad hominem and sticking more to matters of Scripture. It is a challenge to unwind the two in your posts.

 

[Magenta]

I began putting more effort into reading past your prolific ad hominem and sticking
more to matters of Scripture. It is a challenge to unwind the two in your posts.

Almost as amusing as the post where you exclaim that the insults must
stop, while you then continue insulting the person you are speaking to.

 

[studier]

Only the utterly self-deceived believe they can "extinguish" the Spirit

Your argument is with Paul and the command he gave Christians on behalf of our Lord. It's best to explain what's being commanded rather than to keep striving against what the Text actually says.

Greek definitions previously provided. There are definitions for words in the English language also:

quench
verb

transitive verb
1
a: PUT OUT, EXTINGUISH
b: to put out the light or fire of
quench glowing coals with water
c: to cool (something, such as heated metal) suddenly by immersion (as in oil or water)
d: to cause to lose heat or warmth
you have quenched the warmth of France toward you—Alfred Tennyson
2
a: to bring (something immaterial) to an end typically by satisfying, damping, cooling, or decreasing
a rational understanding of the laws of nature can quench impossible desires—Lucius Garvin
the praise that quenches all desire to read the book—T. S. Eliot
b: to terminate by or as if by destroying : ELIMINATE
the Commonwealth party quenched a whole generation of play-acting—Margery Bailey
quench a rebellion
c: to relieve or satisfy with liquid
quenched his thirst at a wayside spring

Some like to keep equivocal vocabulary to dig escape tunnels with in a tight spot.

 

[studier]

I'd agree that The Spirit of God is inextinguishable, but the human spirit is not. Not by any other human anyway. That is no other man, nor woman, can extinguish my spirit even if they try to do so by destroying my body. However, the question whether the lust for power that is inherent in my flesh can work to extinguish my spirit remains. We are told of the fruit of the flesh; envy, malice, etc., and the fruit of the spirit; love, patience, etc. So then, is it reasonable to conclude that if anyone loves, this comes from his spirit and if anyone hates this comes from his flesh?

Can we effectively tune out the Spirit?

 

[Rufus]

Hi, Folks

I plan in the foreseeable future (Lord willin' and the crik doesn't rise) to tackle those difficult Wisdom passages such as Prov 16:1, 9; 19:21; 20:24, etc. These are a few of the passages that instruct us that God is personally involved in all the decisions the sons of men freely make and that God's will is always done through the choices of his moral creatures. A great mystery indeed! But before I tackle such a deep spiritual truth, I thought it would be helpful to interested readers to read a book that was highly instrumental in my life in helping me to more fully appreciate the depth of God's Wisdom, Understanding and Knowledge, especially as these attributes are revealed in his creation (Natural Revelation). The small book (220 pages) I have in mind is titled "The Trinity in the Universe" written by Nathan R. Wood. I would not be exaggerating by saying that next to the bible, this is my favorite extra-biblical work -- hands down! This is due to the subject matter and how it it showed me that the glory of God is indeed revealed in his creation, as the Psalmists often said. Not only this, but Wood showed me how how Natural Revelation is a mirror image of Special Revelation. Both types of revelation are always perfectly in sync with one another! Once I understood this truth, this truly opened up the scriptures to me, like no other truth has; for Wood exposed me to a whole other dimension of spiritual truth.

The reason I am encouraging everyone to seek this book (even though it's out-of-print) is to better understand personally, spiritually and intellectually what I just stated above because I intend to broach and explain this difficult topic of the Intersection of Moral Wills -- God's and Man's -- through Natural Revelation. So...if you have a mind to expand your spiritual horizons, to do some searching for this difficult-to-find book, and you're willing to pay a premium price for it due to it's rarity, I still think you'd be very richly rewarded.

Someone wrote this blurb on Amazon about this work:

"Declared a great masterpiece on the Bible doctrine of the Trinity, this work shows how God has placed the stamp of this great truth on the structural universe. We have the Trinity, not merely illustrated, but demonstrated in time, space and matter."

P.S. Don't forget to search for this book on auction sites, also.

 

[Rufus]

Your argument is with Paul and the command he gave Christians on behalf of our Lord. It's best to explain what's being commanded rather than to keep striving against what the Text actually says.

Greek definitions previously provided. There are definitions for words in the English language also:

quench
verb

transitive verb
1
a: PUT OUT, EXTINGUISH
b: to put out the light or fire of
quench glowing coals with water
c: to cool (something, such as heated metal) suddenly by immersion (as in oil or water)
d: to cause to lose heat or warmth
you have quenched the warmth of France toward you—Alfred Tennyson
2
a: to bring (something immaterial) to an end typically by satisfying, damping, cooling, or decreasing
a rational understanding of the laws of nature can quench impossible desires—Lucius Garvin
the praise that quenches all desire to read the book—T. S. Eliot
b: to terminate by or as if by destroying : ELIMINATE
the Commonwealth party quenched a whole generation of play-acting—Margery Bailey
quench a rebellion
c: to relieve or satisfy with liquid
quenched his thirst at a wayside spring

Oh...so God can literally be "eliminated"? We mere mortals can terminate him? Or do men will to put Him out of their mind and heart?

 

[HeIsHere]

But that interpretation would contradict numerous other passages that speak to man's utter lack of power over their sin nature (within), the world (without) and the Strong Man who rules the world. You're assuming that Noah and his family had this great power instead of understanding the passage in the the larger context of all God's Word and what it says about man.

Slave to sin ≠ Born slave to sin

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

He died for the world (John 3)

But only those who are born again will receive his gift. We are born again by receiving his gift in faith. (again John 3)

BINGO!!!! Whether some religious paradigms like it or not WE HUMANS have to RECEIVE BY FAITH what God offers (and convicts us of SIN about as the basis for our FAITH - God's WORD to us).

 

[Magenta]

BINGO!!!! Whether some religious paradigms like it or not WE HUMANS have to RECEIVE BY FAITH
what God offers (and convicts us of SIN about as the basis for our FAITH - God's WORD to us).

Amen! Everyone is born a natural man and as such requires being born again by the Spirit in order to
attain to life ever after. Nobody does that for their own self, although to hear some speak, they did...

1 Corinthians 4:7b; John 3:27; Romans 9:15-16

 

[studier]

Do you take this to mean that the Holy Spirit within a person can be extinguished (put out) and thereby will also be un-justified?

Good question. A few thoughts. Pardon the questions, but they are mostly rhetorical:

• Are we truly justified if we do not grow to live a justified life
  • 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. (1 Jn. 3:7 NKJ)
• A few commands re: the Spirit:
  • 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. (Gal. 5:16 NKJ)
  • 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Gal. 5:24-25 NKJ)
  • 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Eph. 4:30 NKJ)
  • 19 Do not quench/extinguish the Spirit. (1 Thess. 5:19 NKJ)
    • We also haven't discussed context here.
• Are we truly sanctified and being sanctified if we do not grow to live a sanctified life?
  • NKJ 1 Thess. 4:3-4 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,

Yes, I think the Spirit can be extinguished in a congregation (context?) and in an individual's life, just as the Spirit can be grieved, just as the flesh and deceit can cause transgression and error and a cessation of walking in Spirit. Then we need to discuss acknowledging sins, repentance, forgiveness, cleansing, etc., vs. falling away, deserting, falling from grace, Christ being of no benefit, etc...

Your question is essentially an eternal security question. I do believe in eternal security. I don't believe it applies to as many as some may think it does. I do believe the nearly 600 (as I recall) commands in the NC Epistles and the warnings therein are of great importance and not to be skimmed over with some false assurance of security.

I'm still on the fence with once justified/declared righteous always justified. At this time I place great importance on this:

65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." (Jn. 6:65 NKJ)​

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I know the historical context, but I see this event and teaching of Jesus to be filled with information, much of which I think at this time can be generalized. I also see much importance to Jesus' lesson at the well in John4 because He emphatically says what God the Father is looking for in men.​

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I don't think this is a game we're playing here.​

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I trust God to determine who to grant to His Son and who not to.​

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I trust all of His commands to be important.​

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The saved vs. never saved is probably the best position I can state at this time. All His commands are thus meaningful instruction and mandate to those being saved. On the flip side they're devastating to the game players.​

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16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable/disgusting, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. (Tit. 1:16 NKJ)​

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Your thoughts?