🖐️🔥 Laying hands for healing today?

[CS1]

Then maby you should read your bible more carefully. You quotet James 5 correct, but you claime the opposite.
1. The sick person calls the eldest! You says that i have not to be sick to call the eldest.
2. You say that you cant find that the person who have to pray for the sick person has to be an eldest of the church.
The word for eldest which is used in James five is the same which is used when Paul advised to set in eldest the church of crete.
So there is no reason to think that in James 5 is meant a mature believer.
The progressive healing you mentioned was 1 time ? Written down in a specific situation.
You make from an exception an rule?
I find in the new testament, that who came to Jesus he was healed. 100%
Maby you should consider that their was a special purpose why Jesus healed and did all the miracles. For to proof that he is the sent Messajah.
"I would say a believer today need no anymore a proof that Jesus is the son of God.
Otherwise i would doubt that he is a believer."

Before you insult people and tell them they need to read their Bible, you have yet to use any Biblical reference. I believe English is not your primary language, so I give some grace because of that. However, this is not the first time you have been told this or asked to provide BIBLE text with your post; to date, you have done none. Everything you said in the above post #140 is not true or opinionated.

It was not I who used the word "Eldest" you did. in James 5:14, Elder is used, which in Greek means "presbyters. " They are mostly the eldest but are mature in the faith. Age is not the reason they are called Elders in James 5:14. It is the Maturity in Christ and the faithful witness they have shown.

I am not making exception you are building a one sided house. and You says I said this and I said that but again you create that in your own mind.


"I would say a believer today need no anymore a proof that Jesus is the son of God.


You say? What if Jesus said and word of God yes? You would just not agree because its goes again your Position or opinion.


What did Jesus says about signs wonders and healing and other in the word of God ?

John 9:2-3

2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.

Why?

4 I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Context is important so what is said later in this chapter ? After Jesus healed the Blind man ?

Lets see:


8 Therefore the neighbors and those who previously had seen that he was blind said, “Is not this he who sat and begged?”
9 Some said, “This is he.” Others said, “He is like him.”
He said, “I am he.”
10 Therefore they said to him, “How were your eyes opened?”
11 He answered and said, “A Man called Jesus made clay and anointed my eyes and said to me, ‘Go to the pool of[fn] Siloam and wash.’ So I went and washed, and I received sight.”
12 Then they said to him, “Where is He?”

It is very clear that Jesus our Lord used this man who was known to be blind by all as a means to; what did you say?


"I would say a believer today need no anymore a proof that Jesus is the son of God.
Otherwise i would doubt that he is a believer."


Clearly you are wrong and that is what Jesus did. And if you read in the book of Acts chapter 3 Peter did the same thing but the man was lame . the parallel's of both stories are incredible Both men were born this way. Both man were known by all as being blind and the other lame.
These were wonder works of God to prove Jesus is alive and who he said he is .

Jesus said:

John 10:37-38

37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe

Clearly Jesus said You may know and believe because of HIS works of healing and miracles. The same reason why Peter was usedd by the Holy Spirit in Acts confirming Who Jesus is as Jesus said the works WOULD do


"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me."


I leave with Acts 4:30-33

30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”
31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. 33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.



"I would say a believer today need no anymore a proof that Jesus is the son of God.
Otherwise i would doubt that he is a believer."


The word of God and the Lord Jesus Christ says His works were so one would believe. Your opinion and hate and bias is not supported by the very world of God. If you can show me with scripture and quote it so all can see Book, chapter and verse I would believe more because that to would be a miracle and the first time I have seen it done by you.

 

[Eli1]

Very nice Cessasionist thread, i read all 8 pages.
This almost inspired me to post in that other thread where other denominations answer questions for Protestants but i think it's appropriate to continue here.

Q. Why do all the Miracles happen to Catholics or Orthodox?
A. Miracles happen to everyone, but maybe Protestants reject them?

This is now a question for you all: On what grounds do you reject Miracles? Because they're from the Devil?
And if they are from the Devil, how would you know?
Also, why do you acknowledge that it's always the Devil but never God?

Thank you all.

 

[hornetguy]

This is now a question for you all: On what grounds do you reject Miracles? Because they're from the Devil?

Personally, I do not reject miraculous healing.... God does it all the time.
What I reject is the notion that anybody/everybody can be healed "on demand".....
God heals people as He wills, not when someone here demands it.
We are to pray for healing, and many times, that is God's will, and people are healed.

 

[Eli1]

Personally, I do not reject miraculous healing.... God does it all the time.
What I reject is the notion that anybody/everybody can be healed "on demand".....
God heals people as He wills, not when someone here demands it.
We are to pray for healing, and many times, that is God's will, and people are healed.

Thank you!
This is exactly my understanding and experience too.

 

[CS1]

Very nice Cessasionist thread, i read all 8 pages.
This almost inspired me to post in that other thread where other denominations answer questions for Protestants but i think it's appropriate to continue here.

Q. Why do all the Miracles happen to Catholics or Orthodox?
A. Miracles happen to everyone, but maybe Protestants reject them?

This is now a question for you all: On what grounds do you reject Miracles? Because they're from the Devil?
And if they are from the Devil, how would you know?
Also, why do you acknowledge that it's always the Devil but never God?

Thank you all.

First off, any sign or wonder MUST BRING GLORY TO GOD and be Confirmed with the following :

People get saved and believe in the Lord Jesus, not in the denomination or the person God uses.
It is a red flag if the miracle is worshiped or becomes a movement or is recreated every time.

Also, The Testimony MUST Stand. It must line up with the word of GOD or have been seen in the word of God as a Normative.

 

[CS1]

Personally, I do not reject miraculous healing.... God does it all the time.
What I reject is the notion that anybody/everybody can be healed "on demand".....
God heals people as He wills, not when someone here demands it.
We are to pray for healing, and many times, that is God's will, and people are healed.

I also think that the narrative is not fully correct. The Word of God teaches that everyone can receive healing, yet we can never demand it and we accept and still trust God when HE says no.

 

[Eli1]

I also think that the narrative is not fully correct. The Word of God teaches that everyone can receive healing, yet we can never demand it and we accept and still trust God when HE says no.

I'm curious but what is the difference between what you said and what Hornetguy said?

 

[CS1]

I'm curious but what is the difference between what you said and what Hornetguy said?

The understanding that some teach or say "Demand." I know the YouTube church and those who stay home and watch on TV or online are very much formulating an unbiblical understanding or becoming confused. The Local Church Body is essential for discipleship.
Many regurgitate sound bites from other biases but have been debunked by the very word of God over and over again. As a Pentecostal Minister, K. Copland, B.Hinn, and others have never been ones I have followed ever. Yet men who have respected and do not hold to my Biblical understanding, like John. MacArthur, R. C. Sproul, and others have all been on TBN and used it to promote their ministry. I also have an issue with those who speak of the fleecing of the flock $$$$$$$$$$ yet own Homes that are compound and have millions and those who make excuses" they wrote books," and?

Today right now there are fundamentalist and evangelical and Reformed churches that support Homo- Sexuality and teach a perverted love of God. I agree with RC and MacArthur on that. YET MacArthur church, which is 68 miles from me in the Bay Area, would not want me to attend HIS church. Yet my Church door is open to all, And MacArthur has said this publicly.

 

[Eli1]

The understanding that some teach or say "Demand." I know the YouTube church and those who stay home and watch on TV or online are very much formulating an unbiblical understanding or becoming confused. The Local Church Body is essential for discipleship.
Many regurgitate sound bites from other biases but have been debunked by the very word of God over and over again. As a Pentecostal Minister, K. Copland, B.Hinn, and others have never been ones I have followed ever. Yet men who have respected and do not hold to my Biblical understanding, like John. MacArthur, R. C. Sproul, and others have all been on TBN and used it to promote their ministry. I also have an issue with those who speak of the fleecing of the flock $$$$$$$$$$ yet own Homes that are compound and have millions and those who make excuses" they wrote books," and?

Today right now there are fundamentalist and evangelical and Reformed churches that support Homo- Sexuality and teach a perverted love of God. I agree with RC and MacArthur on that. YET MacArthur church, which is 68 miles from me in the Bay Area, would not want me to attend HIS church. Yet my Church door is open to all, And MacArthur has said this publicly.

I mean sure, i agree with this and i understand it but i think Hornetguy summarized it perfectly which implies what you're saying.
So i guess there isn't any difference between what you're saying and what he said.

 

[CS1]

I mean sure, i agree with this and i understand it but i think Hornetguy summarized it perfectly which implies what you're saying.
So i guess there isn't any difference between what you're saying and what he said.

I have known Hornetguy for some time and others, and he is a good man and respectful. The issue I had was with the word " Demand,"

In mho, that is a sound bite from some who are Cencessionist. It's not that Hornetguy is one; I think he hates foolishness as much as I hate him. But I don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Some do. if you say we are saying the same thing well, amen them

 

[Eli1]

I have known Hornetguy for some time and others, and he is a good man and respectful. The issue I had was with the word " Demand,"

In mho, that is a sound bite from some who are Cencessionist. It's not that Hornetguy is one; I think he hates foolishness as much as I hate him. But I don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Some do. if you say we are saying the same thing well, amen them

Well, i understood the word "demand" as just that. Doing things on demand, which of course it's absurd as it's not God's will which is what he said and what you said after.
So by using the word "demand" we understand that we are dealing with false churches who base things on money etc (like you also said).
So the word "demand" was sort of perfectly used there and self-explanatory.

Anyway, i appreciate your agreement with his and mine on this point.

 

[CS1]

Well, i understood the word "demand" as just that. Doing things on demand, which of course it's absurd as it's not God's will which is what he said and what you said after.
So by using the word "demand" we understand that we are dealing with false churches who base things on money etc (like you also said).
So the word "demand" was sort of perfectly used there and self-explanatory.

Anyway, i appreciate your agreement with his and mine on this point.

My experience with the word "Demand " is that I do just that as a Pentacostel minister.

This is not true, and you may even see some here in this thread who have suggested that no names were mentioned about me. Yes, I fully understand, as I believe you and others do, but please look at my threads and others. Some here have attacks and personal comments, and when asked to provide biblical text for their understanding, they don't. " did that before? "Do it again as I have again and again. Why? Because what I think or believe, I see in the word of God. It is not true because I agree or disagree; it is true because that is the context of the text. If one doesn't provide biblical text to refute. You will find many posts and threads where I have clearly confronted foolishness in the pentacostel Charismatic circles. As led by the Lord, I have confronted men, women, pastors, Bishops, and lay ministers by letters, phone calls, emails, and in person.

That being said, God heals, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active, and for the believer today, they have not stopped, and there is not one verse in the word of God that states, " the gifts of the Holy Spirit have stopped.

 

[Eli1]

My experience with the word "Demand " is that I do just that as a Pentacostel minister.

This is not true, and you may even see some here in this thread who have suggested that no names were mentioned about me. Yes, I fully understand, as I believe you and others do, but please look at my threads and others. Some here have attacks and personal comments, and when asked to provide biblical text for their understanding, they don't. " did that before? "Do it again as I have again and again. Why? Because what I think or believe, I see in the word of God. It is not true because I agree or disagree; it is true because that is the context of the text. If one doesn't provide biblical text to refute. You will find many posts and threads where I have clearly confronted foolishness in the pentacostel Charismatic circles. As led by the Lord, I have confronted men, women, pastors, Bishops, and lay ministers by letters, phone calls, emails, and in person.

That being said, God heals, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active, and for the believer today, they have not stopped, and there is not one verse in the word of God that states, " the gifts of the Holy Spirit have stopped.

I just want to say that in a group of 10 people you're lucky to find one person who is in agreement with you, but in this point right now, there are 3 people who agree on what you just said. Hallelujah!

My experience and understanding is that God's gifts and miracles are continuing to this day while i also realize that there are many other fakes who want to produce things "on demand".
I was more curious to understand the thought process of the folks who completely reject miracles. A thought process based on the Bible or experience.
But i realize that i shouldn't hold my breath on that one.

 

[Evmur]

Personally, I do not reject miraculous healing.... God does it all the time.
What I reject is the notion that anybody/everybody can be healed "on demand".....
God heals people as He wills, not when someone here demands it.
We are to pray for healing, and many times, that is God's will, and people are healed.

healing on demand is a nonsense, we demand nothing from God. We might demand the devil to get off of God's property.

God has declared His will, it was never God's will for any to be sick any more than that any should be sinners. Sin and sickness are twins, twin evils. They do not come from God.

... people even say that God allowed them to sin. People even say that Paul's thorn was some backsliding sin.

 

[hornetguy]

I just want to say that in a group of 10 people you're lucky to find one person who is in agreement with you, but in this point right now, there are 3 people who agree on what you just said. Hallelujah!

My experience and understanding is that God's gifts and miracles are continuing to this day while i also realize that there are many other fakes who want to produce things "on demand".
I was more curious to understand the thought process of the folks who completely reject miracles. A thought process based on the Bible or experience.
But i realize that i shouldn't hold my breath on that one.

I think we three are pretty much on the same page... you are correct, I should have said "on demand".... in other words, if I consider myself a miraculous healer, then all I have to do is pray for someone and God WILL heal them.... doing healings on demand.
I do not believe God works that way... "A prayer of a righteous person, when it is brought about, can accomplish much. "
We fervently ask God for healing, and if it's in His plan, He will heal... sometimes, God says "no, not this time"....

 

[CS1]

I have known Hornetguy for some time and others, and he is a good man and respectful. The issue I had was with the word " Demand,"

In mho, that is a sound bite from some who are Cencessionist. It's not that Hornetguy is one; I think he hates foolishness as much as I hate him. But I don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Some do. if you say we are saying the same thing well, amen them

excuse me I do not hate Hornetguy I want to make sure that is clear because in my post I said " as much as I hate him vic em or them. I know hornetguy knows that but I still need to clarify

 

[Evmur]

I think we three are pretty much on the same page... you are correct, I should have said "on demand".... in other words, if I consider myself a miraculous healer, then all I have to do is pray for someone and God WILL heal them.... doing healings on demand.
I do not believe God works that way... "A prayer of a righteous person, when it is brought about, can accomplish much. "
We fervently ask God for healing, and if it's in His plan, He will heal... sometimes, God says "no, not this time"....

for me you have to show this "no, not this time in the minstry of Christ" He is the revelation of God.

We as ministers may not attain to His stature, His whole church may not attain to it ... but we MUST not let go of the truth. We must not tailor the truth to fit our ability to attain to it. That's what the church does with healing. We add caveats, ifs and buts where God has not put caveats or ifs and buts.

Now we see with Saul of Tarsus that it was God's intention that he should be saved, Saul heard the preaching of Stephen, most likely saw miracles done at his hands but he was not at that time ready to be saved ... God had some more goadings to do for him to kick against.

So people may come to the preacher or to the church for to be healed but they are not yet ready to come to Christ.

Don't fill that time gap with caveats and ifs and buts and excuses.

I am opposed to altar calls whether it be for salvation, healing or blessing, that all belongs to a different theology to the one I aspire to. Preach the gospel and leave the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven to apply the truths to the people.

 

[hornetguy]

I know hornetguy knows that but I still need to clarify

Yes, I understood what you were saying... thanks for saying it, brother.

 

[wolfwint]

Before you insult people and tell them they need to read their Bible, you have

Then maby you should read your bible more carefully. You quotet James 5 correct, but you claime the opposite.
1. The sick person calls the eldest! You says that i have not to be sick to call the eldest.
2. You say that you cant find that the person who have to pray for the sick person has to be an eldest of the church.
The word for eldest which is used in James five is the same which is used when Paul advised to set in eldest the church of crete.
So there is no reason to think that in James 5 is meant a mature believer.
The progressive healing you mentioned was 1 time ? Written down in a specific situation.
You make from an exception an rule?
I find in the new testament, that who came to Jesus he was healed. 100%
Maby you should consider that their was a special purpose why Jesus healed and did all the miracles. For to proof that he is the sent Messajah.
I would say a believer today need no anymore a proof that Jesus is the son of God.
Otherwise i would doubt that he is a believer.

CS1, at seems to me that you did not understand my post. So again
1. James 5,14 speaks not from mature
believers as you told me.

✝ James 5:14

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:"

And not I used the word eldest, God uses this word, right?

The same word presbyter is used in Titus 1,5
✝ Titus 1:5

"For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:"

So this makes clear that here are not meant merely mature believers, but the leader of the church.
If you not agree, it is your beer, but tell me not that I am wrong.

2. So far almost all verses which speaks in the gospel about that Jesus healed. It is written: and all who came to Him are healed. Directly and not in in process! Only one occasion i renember when this was in two steps: when Jesus healed a Blind man. I am shure you know the vers.

The purpose why Jesus healed and did miracle you find in the gospel of John!

✝ John 20:30

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:"

✝ John 20:31

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

3. As a child of God I would of course say I need no sign after the other that Jesus is the son of God. He lives already through his Spirit in me. What else a child of God need as proof?

You told that what I wrote in post 140 is not true. If so then show me were i am wrong!

 

[wolfwint]

Sorry CS1, the post is for you.