Total Depravity

[PaulThomson]

right ... the way I see this perfect verb / waw imperfect sequence as it relates to Gen 4:1-5 is as follows:

Genesis 4:

1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said

1-2 I have gotten a man from the LORD. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep,

2-3 but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
and if as you state, Abel brought his offering prior to Cain having brought his offering, then I believe what you are saying is that you read Gen 4:4 right after "and Abel was a keeper of sheep" (Gen 4:2) ...

then you read "but Cain was a tiller of the ground" ... followed by the text relating to Cain's offering (Gen 4:4).
.

No. You simply translate the verse about Abel as pluperfect.
I have gotten a man from the LORD. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep,
And Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

Now Abel, he had also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

 

[PaulThomson]

Hi friend, try this, to see if faith is a gift from God..1Corins 12:31 ...Now eagerly desire the greater gifts..1Corins 13:13..faith,hope and Love. But the greatest of these is Love.

No one is arguing that faith is not a gift. from God, and more or less than eye-sight is a gift from God. The debate is about when faith was given as a gift. Some are misusing Eph. 2:8 to claim that the faith that makes regeneration possible is given when a person is saved, That verse does not say that the faith by which one is saved is a gift given at the time one is saved. Nor is that stated anywhere in scripture. Others are arguing that faith is a faculty we are all gifted with very early in life, or perhaps even before birth.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

No. You simply translate the verse about Abel as pluperfect.
I have gotten a man from the LORD. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep,
And Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

Now Abel, he had also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

Here is what you said (bold mine) which led me to believe you were saying Abel offered first ... then Cain offered later:

Cain copied Abel some time later, perhaps hoping to have his crops blessed, but his offering was not accepted, presumably becasue it was not out of faith, but out of some other motive: wanting to equal his older brother in productivity maybe?

I thought you were saying that Abel brought his offering which was accepted by God ... then some time passed after which Cain brought his offering which was not accepted by God.

In agreement God accepted Abel's offering because "by faith, Abel" ...

In agreement God did not accept Cain's offering "because it was not out of faith, but out of some other motive" ...

 

[PaulThomson]

Here is what you said (bold mine) which led me to believe you were saying Abel offered first ... then Cain offered later:





I thought you were saying that Abel brought his offering which was accepted by God ... then some time passed after which Cain brought his offering which was not accepted by God.

In agreement God accepted Abel's offering because "by faith, Abel" ...

In agreement God did not accept Cain's offering "because it was not out of faith, but out of some other motive" ...

I am saying what you thought I was saying. Abel offered his offering first. The Hebrew grammar says that. The order in which clauses appear in a text do not determine the chronological order of events in real time.

 

[posthuman]

They were of little faith, and they only need faith as a mustard seed (little faith) and Jesus asked them elsewhere "Where is your faith?", implying that they had faith.

this can easily mean, they should be satisfied with the faith they were given.

 

[PaulThomson]

this can easily mean, they should be satisfied with the faith they were given.

Yes. We all have enough God-given faith at birth to do whatever we need to do. But we do need to learn how to exercise that faith effectively. Holy Spirit understanding of how to focus and apply our faith allows those trained by Him to achieve great works of faith using just that same little mustard seed. of faith.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I am saying what you thought I was saying. Abel offered his offering first. The Hebrew grammar says that. The order in which clauses appear in a text do not determine the chronological order of events in real time.

I put the verses in the order based on the verb perfect / waw imperfect sequence and you said "No". Now you're saying that is what you were saying.

I guess the only point we're in agreement on is that Abel did bring his offering "by faith" and Cain did not bring his offering "by faith". We can leave it at that. Thanks.
.

 

[HeIsHere]

sad that some believe God is unfair ...

To be fair it is the "god" of Calvinism that people believe is unjust, and rightly so, not the God of scripture.

 

[HeIsHere]

Hi friend, try this, to see if faith is a gift from God..1Corins 12:31 ...Now eagerly desire the greater gifts..1Corins 13:13..faith,hope and Love. But the greatest of these is Love.

Faith as a spiritual gift given to the believer.

1 Cor. 12 (NIV)
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

 

[Melach]

I explicitly stated the otherwise.

It is "through faith" those are God's words not mine.

yes its true faith. i used to be in the libertarian free will camp, then GOD happened.

through faith, amen. why do some believe and other people not? am i more spiritually inclined or smarter than my neighbors? more humble?

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed

the ones who are appointed to eternal life are granted spiritual life from God. its a miracle, think about it. you have people who are dead in trespasses and sins, completely dead in Adam, resurrected spiritually to be in Christ.

its not as if you have people walking around believing in Christ wanting to be saved and God just wont do it. the natural man doesnt want to be saved, he doesnt like the true gospel. when God gives them a new heart, they will believe and obey the gospel.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

these are things God does. whenever we do something, we give glory of it to God:


Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[Melach]

Scripture teaches that everything we have has been given of God.

1 Corinthians 4:7b; John 3:27; Romans 9:15-16

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows

one more poster incoming dear sister

 

[HeIsHere]

yes its true faith. i used to be in the libertarian free will camp, then GOD happened.

through faith, amen. why do some believe and other people not? am i more spiritually inclined or smarter than my neighbors? more humble?

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed

the ones who are appointed to eternal life are granted spiritual life from God. its a miracle, think about it. you have people who are dead in trespasses and sins, completely dead in Adam, resurrected spiritually to be in Christ.

its not as if you have people walking around believing in Christ wanting to be saved and God just wont do it. the natural man doesnt want to be saved, he doesnt like the true gospel. when God gives them a new heart, they will believe and obey the gospel.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

these are things God does. whenever we do something, we give glory of it to God:


Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Okay.

Yes your thinking has changed.
People are so blind and depraved Jesus had to speak in parables just in case, best to prevent anyone from turning towards truth.

 

[Magenta]

Okay.

Yes your thinking has changed.
People are so blind and depraved Jesus had to speak in parables just in case, best to prevent anyone from turning towards truth.

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have
not come on My own, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you
are unable to accept My message. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his
desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no
truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies."

 

[Magenta]

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows

one more poster incoming dear sister

Hello Melach! Always lovely to see you .

Thank you for the additional verse... according to some here, God is unfair if He does not give the same (level of) revelation to everyone. Obviously, all they need to do is read their Bible to see that God does not give the same (level of) revelation to everyone.

 

[Melach]

Okay.

Yes your thinking has changed.
People are so blind and depraved Jesus had to speak in parables just in case, best to prevent anyone from turning towards truth.

its not a very recent change though. what finally made me turn to the original reformed theology on the nature of man and bondage of the will was "who gets the final say?" in the final analysis am i saved because of a choice i made? or am i saved because God saved me? i just believe this view gives God the glory, and its on the 'right side' of the reformation instead of the catholic side of things

we talk about free will, but how often do we concern ourselves with God's freedom?

 

[Magenta]

We all have enough God-given faith at birth to do whatever we need to do.

Chapter and verse?

 

[posthuman]

Okay.

Yes your thinking has changed.
People are so blind and depraved Jesus had to speak in parables just in case, best to prevent anyone from turning towards truth.

so that to those who have, more will be given.
and so that those who do not have, even what they have will be taken away.

 

[Melach]

Hello Melach! Always lovely to see you .

Thank you for the additional verse... according to some here, God is unfair if He does not give the same (level of) revelation to everyone. Obviously, all they need to do is read their Bible to see that God does not give the same (level of) revelation to everyone.

i would point out the apostle st.Paul. does everyone get hit with a shocker of a revelation like that? God draws each person differently it seems, some get a complete sudden stop like st.Paul, some get a strong conviction of their sins out of the blue, some in a prison cell, yet others are convinced through scientific proofs and so on. God ordains the end and the means! praise God

 

[Magenta]

i would point out the apostle st.Paul. does everyone get hit with a shocker of a revelation like that? God draws each person differently it seems, some get a complete sudden stop like st.Paul, some get a strong conviction of their sins out of the blue, some in a prison cell, yet others are convinced through scientific proofs and so on. God ordains the end and the means! praise God

Yes, and let's not forget that burning bush! It is not the God of Calvinism
that people like HIH believe is unjust, but the God of the Bible.

 

[Melach]

Yes, and let's not forget that burning bush! It is not the God of Calvinism
that people like HIH believe is unjust, but the God of the Bible.

id say true because what i realized as well is: foreknowledge equals predestination pretty much.

i know arminians wouldnt agree. but lets think about it: if God chose to create a world in which He knew X Y and Z would happen. X Y Z will happen, no matter what because God has exhaustive foreknowledge. so if God chose to create, there is no other way things can go.

molinism same thing, but i respect molinism cause it actually makes logical sense, id say molinism and calvinism are very very similar. the "osas arminians" are a strange phenomena, so inconsistent in their beliefs. you can just will your way to salvation but cant will your way out of it? whaat?