Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

PaulThomson · 2024-07-17T02:28:26-0400

Yes, you found a translation of the passage that most closely fits your theology that impugns God's character, and then you claim that is what Ecc. 7:14 says.

Ecc. 7:14 KJV "In the day of prosperity be joyful: but in the day of adversity consider. God has set the one over against the other to the end that man should find nothing after him."

The hebrew word fpr day in masculine. The Hebrew word for prosperity is feminine. The Hebrew word for adversity is feminine. The hebrew word for the one is masculine. The Hebrew word for the other is masculine. The word for has set is 'ashah., to shape what already exists.

So, the text does not say that God brings evil into existence. He manipulates the evil already existing to produce some benefit (blessing or learning) to those involved. In the day of prosperity remember that God has had a hand in coordination things to rein in evil, and you happen to have benefitted from God's intervention. And in the day of adversity, remember that God has been working to rein in evil, and you happen to have come out badly nevertheless. God sometimes puts us on the winning side and sometimes He allows us to end up on the losing end, so that we will not presume we have the power to manipulate God or events to always get the outcomes we desire.

Rufus said:

Yes God massages the light and the dark and the circumstances that produce prosperity for some and adversity for others. God does all four of these things. But it is a giant leap to conclude from that that everything that happens is perfectly as God would like it to be. A potter selects a lump of clay expecting to make some fine bone china, but in working the clay he finds some impurities that mean it is not fit for the vessel and use he had had in mind. He make the best of an imperfect situation and makes a vessel for less honorab;e status and use. This does not mean he put the impurity into the clay on purpose, because he actually always wanted to make an inferior vessel and wanted to have an excuse for doing so. What comes out from God's intervention may be better than it would have been without His intervention, but it is almost certainly not exactly what He wanted.

Hakawaka · 2024-07-17T07:39:48-0400

HeIsHere said:

When are you going to make a thread? I'd be interested to know yours

HeIsHere · 2024-07-17T08:57:38-0400

Hakawaka said:

Just follow the time stamps, it is all there.

"Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.’ Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’” (Lk. 23:28-30)

"This generation will not pass away until all things take place.” (Lk. 21:32)

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

"Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)

HeIsHere · 2024-07-17T09:16:17-0400

maxamir said:

Nice work there looking at this in context of David's reality and the situation he was dealing with.
Bravo!

Hakawaka · 2024-07-17T09:42:02-0400

HeIsHere said:

I do agree these are about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 when Jesus came in judgment of it. I view Matthew 24 as divided into two:

Matthew 24:1-35 has a bunch of signs, about AD70.
Matthew 24:35 onwards has no signs, its like the days of Noah, and Lot, life going as per usual, people marrying, drinking, eating, building, being sodomites, then all of a sudden Jesus returns.

Thats how I view it

studier · 2024-07-17T10:14:50-0400

Error

studier · 2024-07-17T10:45:58-0400

Magenta said:

ESV Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

to cry out with a great/intense/unusual sound/voice (BDAG Lexicon)

ESV Hebrews 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.

loud: strong, violent, loud, mighty (BDAG)
cries: 1. a loud cry or call, shout lit. a. shout(ing), b. a loud (articulate) cry 2. outcry in grief or anxiety, wailing, crying (BDAG); κραυγή, ἡ, (κράζω) a crying, screaming, shrieking, shouting, Lat. clamor, Eur., Xen. (Liddell Scott

YLT Psalm 22:1 To the Overseer, on 'The Hind of the Morning.' -- A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring?

Koehler-Baumgartner, Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the OT (HALOT)
Hal9266

שְׁאָגָה: שׁאג, Bauer-Leander Heb. 463u; Ug. tÑigt Dietrich-Loretz-Sanmartin Texte 1, 14:iii:16, variant tÑiqt v:8, the bellowing of a bull (Gordon Textbook §19:2627; Aistleitner Wb. 2448; Gibson Myths2 160a; cf. Fisher Parallels 1: p. 376, no. 595

cstr. שַׁאֲגַת, sf. שַׁאֲגָתִי, pl. sf. שַׁאֲגֹתָֽי.

—1. roaring of a lion Is 529 Ezk 197 Zech 113 Jb 410.

—2. screaming (of someone who has been challenged) Ps 222 323 Jb 324.

—3. expressions: a) as 1: with קוֹל Ezk 197 Zech 112, אַרְיֵה שַׁאֲגַת parallel with קוֹל שָֽׁחַל Jb 410; b( as 2: דִּבְרֵי שַׁאֲגָתִי Ps 222, with ) נָתַןsbj. (שַׁאֲגֹתָֽי Jb 324. †
__________________________________
Brown, Driver, Briggs, Hebrew and English Lexicon (Unabridged)
BDB 9580 שְׁאָגָה ]9581) [Hebrew( (page 980) (Strong 7581)
† שְׁאָגָה n. f. roaring;—1. like lion, abs. שׁ׳: Is 5:29 )of invaders); of lion, cstr. שַׁאֲגַת Zc 11:3, Jb 4:10 (fig. of wicked), sf. קוֹל שַׁאֲגָתוֹ Ez 19:7 (fig. of conquering king). 2. human cry in distress, שַׁאֲגְתִי Psalm 32:3, דִּבְרֵי שׁ׳: 22:2, שַׁאֲגֹתָ֑י Jb 3:24.
__________________________________
Holladay, Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the OT (HOL)
Hol8307
שְׁאָגָה: cs. שַׁאֲגַת, sf. שַׁאֲגָתִי; pl. sf. שַׁאֲגֹתַי: — 1. roaring (of lion) Is 529; — 2. bawling, groaning (of s.one praying) Ps 222, pl. Jb 324. (pg 355)
__________________________________
Harris, et als, Theological Wordbook of the OT
2300.0 ) שָׁאַגsh¹°ag( roar.

)2300aשְׁאָגָה ( (sh®°¹gâ) roaring.

sh®°¹gâ. Roaring. This feminine noun is used to refer to roaring literally or figuratively. Of special interest is Psa 22, , which, along with Isa 53, , so well foretells the Messiah's suffering. Here in Psa 22:1 [H 2] the Messiah asks the Father why he is so "far from helping me, from the words of my roaring?" The Messiah-it must be answered-is roaring, groaning, as did David in Psa 38:8 [H 9] (sh¹°ag, see above), because of his estrangement from the Father or his abandonment to judgment upon the cross (see ±¹zab) as he bore the sins of many (Mt 27:46). G.G.C.

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast;
15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet--
17 I can count all my bones-- they stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots. (Ps. 22:14-18 ESV)

"Jesus is never said to have screamed?" Seriously?

You probably should display some humility and admit your error.

Along with the above, it may also help you to read a description of what happens to the human body in crucifixion. It's horrendous.

Then there's the reality that Jesus who had never been without our Father in a way that none of us can begin to fathom, was forsaken/ abandoned/deserted/left behind by Him for the first and only time in His existence. Unimaginable.

I can barely get through this Scripture apart from tears welling up.

Shame on you.

Rufus · 2024-07-17T11:06:34-0400

maxamir said:

once again you deny the sovereignty of God in salvation and the doctrine of original sin by foolishly thinking that spiritually dead men can choose God when Scripture clearly states that men by their depraved nature hate God and do not seek after Him or want to choose Him unless God grants to give them new hearts to do so as is clearly shown in Ezekiel's picture of the valley of dry dead bones which only God can make alive and which was done by grace, through faith in Christ Jesus who came to secure salvation for His people and not simply make salvation possible for dead people who you foolishly think can choose Him to save themselves!

Until you submit to the truth that God has chosen to save some people purely according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which has absolutely nothing to do with the person or what they do, then you are deceived into believing a false gospel and a false Christ and also deny the doctrine of the Trinity in which the whole Godhead is involved in the salvation of sinners chosen before the foundation of the world.

All deserve only justice from God and thank God He has chosen to give non-justice to some in the form of righteous mercy wrought for them in the cross of Christ and it is only these He desires to save. The rest are given justice by way of their sin to the praise of the glory of God's goodness found in His holy, righteous, just, eternal wrath which you do not yet believe in and somehow think that God loves those He eternally torments when He has decreed all things including their just demise for His glory.

Pro 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring up like grass, And when all the workers of iniquity flourish, It is that they may be destroyed forever.

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Jud 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, you've gone and done it. The above is way, way too much truth. You have just blown the circuit breakers in many attics here.

Rufus · 2024-07-17T12:18:07-0400

PaulThomson said:

Explain to me, please, exactly how does the NIV translation impugn the character of God. Did God bring discredit and dishonor to himself even though he brought Job to Satan's attention?

For your info the more more literal translations read of Eccl 7:14:

Eccl 7:14
14 In the day of prosperity enjoy good, and in the day of adversity consider: God hath also set the one beside the other, to the end that man should find out nothing [of what shall be] after him.
Darby

Eccl 7:14
14 In the day of prosperity be happy,
But in the day of adversity consider-
God has made the one as well as the other
So that man may not discover anything that will be after him.
NASB

Eccl 7:14
14 In a day of prosperity be in gladness, And in a day of evil consider. Also this over-against that hath God made, To the intent that man doth not find anything after him.
YLT

Eccl 7:14
14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, and in the day of adversity consider: God has made the one as well as the other, so that man may not find out anything that will be after him.
ESV

Eccl 7:14
14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider that God has made the one side by side with the other, so that man may not find out anything that shall be after him.
AMP

Clearly the sense of these passages is that God has made BOTH -- so how does this impugn the character of God.? Did not God permit Satan to bring evil times upon Job? And then after Job's testing, who was it that brought good times upon him?

Job 42:10, 12a
10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had before.
12 The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first.
NIV

But Wait! How can this be!? You disagreed with Job's assessment of his situation in 2:10, calling it "proto-calvinism". So, if God wasn't ultimately responsible for all the evil that befell Job, yet at the same time free from all moral culpability, then He cannot possibly be responsible for the times of his prosperity and restoration and happiness, and blessing, etc.. You must believe as all non-believers under the sun: Poor ol' Job was simply a victim of "time and chance" (Eccl 9:11).

Even Satan is wiser than you are, Mr. Thompson! Didn't the Evil One himself acknowledge that Job would not be enjoying all his possessions around him and his household and his flocks if God had not blessed him and put a hedge around him!? Allow me to translate this for you: Job wouldn't have had diddly squat if it weren't for God's GOOD and GRACIOUS PROVIDENCE -- his providence that extends to all areas of life in this world -- whether for good or evil.

I suppose you think that the brave fireman at the Trump rally who protected his family with his own body from the bullets of the shooter's rifle also died by time and chance, yes? If he just hadn't been at the wrong place at the wrong time, he would have escaped the evil that befell him, right? God didn't ordain his fate, did he? God didn't make that day for him, did he? It wasn't by God's providence that this poor soul died while Trump literally dodged the bullet, heh? Time and Chance -- the god and goddess of Atheism.

P.S,
And by the way...to deny what Isa 45:7 is saying about how God brings prosperity (good) and creates disaster (evil) destroys the parallel from the first part of the passage. If God doesn't do these things, then neither did he form the light and create darkness. Again, welcome to Athesism...or I suppose to "theistic" evolution!

Genez · 2024-07-17T12:19:09-0400

Rufus said:

You are really enjoying your power trip.
The both of you.

Holding up wooden swords and standing boldly in front of you imagined enemies...

Peter warned about your kind....

Genez · 2024-07-17T12:24:36-0400

Rufus said:

You still did not want to know the reason.

Because you're having too much fun with your made up stuff.

Gives you a sense of power to make believe you know what you are talking about and that others don't.

There's hope. Some of us here are truly growing in truth by grace.

Play along if you wish....

........

Genez · 2024-07-17T12:32:57-0400

Note!

They are spoken of in the Bible.
They will be amongst us...

These people do know Scripture!
They can quote it.
They just can not know what it means.
But willfully force themselves to believe that they do.
And, impose their self belief upon others.

Delusional theology is their forte...

Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul

also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all

his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are

hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other

Scriptures, to their own destruction."

2 Peter 3:15-16

grace and patience ................

PaulThomson · 2024-07-17T12:55:00-0400

Rufus said:

Explain to me, please, exactly how does the NIV translation impugn the character of God. Did God bring discredit and dishonor to himself even though he brought Job to Satan's attention?

For your info the more more literal translations read of Eccl 7:14:

Eccl 7:14
14 In the day of prosperity enjoy good, and in the day of adversity consider: God hath also set the one beside the other, to the end that man should find out nothing [of what shall be] after him.
Darby

Eccl 7:14
14 In the day of prosperity be happy,
But in the day of adversity consider-
God has made the one as well as the other
So that man may not discover anything that will be after him.
NASB

Eccl 7:14
14 In a day of prosperity be in gladness, And in a day of evil consider. Also this over-against that hath God made, To the intent that man doth not find anything after him.
YLT

Eccl 7:14
14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, and in the day of adversity consider: God has made the one as well as the other, so that man may not find out anything that will be after him.
ESV

Eccl 7:14
14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider that God has made the one side by side with the other, so that man may not find out anything that shall be after him.
AMP

Clearly the sense of these passages is that God has made BOTH -- so how does this impugn the character of God.? Did not God permit Satan to bring evil times upon Job? And then after Job's testing, who was it that brought good times upon him?

Job 42:10, 12a
10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had before.
12 The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first.
NIV

But Wait! How can this be!? You disagreed with Job's assessment of his situation in 2:10, calling it "proto-calvinism". So, if God wasn't ultimately responsible for all the evil that befell Job, yet at the same time free from all moral culpability, then He cannot possibly be responsible for the times of his prosperity and restoration and happiness, and blessing, etc.. You must believe as all non-believers under the sun: Poor ol' Job was simply a victim of "time and chance" (Eccl 9:11).

Even Satan is wiser than you are, Mr. Thompson! Didn't the Evil One himself acknowledge that Job would not be enjoying all his possessions around him and his household and his flocks if God had not blessed him and put a hedge around him!? Allow me to translate this for you: Job wouldn't have had diddly squat if it weren't for God's GOOD and GRACIOUS PROVIDENCE -- his providence that extends to all areas of life in this world -- whether for good or evil.

I suppose you think that the brave fireman at the Trump rally who protected his family with his own body from the bullets of the shooter's rifle also died by time and chance, yes? If he just hadn't been at the wrong place at the wrong time, he would have escaped the evil that befell him, right? God didn't ordain his fate, did he? God didn't make that day for him, did he? It wasn't by God's providence that this poor soul died while Trump literally dodged the bullet, heh? Time and Chance -- the god and goddess of Atheism.

P.S,
And by the way...to deny what Isa 45:7 is saying about how God brings prosperity (good) and creates disaster (evil) destroys the parallel from the first part of the passage. If God doesn't do these things, then neither did he form the light and create darkness. Again, welcome to Athesism...or I suppose to "theistic" evolution!

PaulThomson · 2024-07-17T13:07:02-0400

Eccl 7:14
14 When times are good, be happy;
but when times are bad, consider:
God has made the one
as well as the other. NIV

You want to find scriptures that say God deliberately creates evil, to justify your theology of double predestination. You think "If the Bible says God did what we call evil here, then those who object to my attributing God creating men, women and children specifically for the endless fire, will have no leg to stand on. "
The NIV says God made the good times and the bad times, which you read as that God from the beginning has premeditated all the bad times to happen exactly as they do. That impugns God by making Him the author of evil, when His creatures author evil, and He merely steps in at times to limit for a season the effects of the evil his creatures are determined to do.

Genez · 2024-07-17T13:35:28-0400

PaulThomson said:

Let them do it.
For if they can believe that?
You think using reasoning could work?

Satan loves to place heavy weighted ankle bracelets on our faith walk. He finds dupes to oblige.
Their God is insane. Their God would end up having nothing in the end.

Leave him be....

Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time.

After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that

such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned." Titus 3:10-11

Be sad that such a soul exits.
But, leave him be.

They live off sucking energy out of people they feel they can never equal.
They fail to recognize the power of God's grace to transform and improve one's state of being..

Cruel minds are attracted to cruel concepts.

ThereRoseaLamb · 2024-07-17T14:27:31-0400

maxamir said:

Genez · 2024-07-17T14:40:22-0400

ThereRoseaLamb said:

God must put people who reject Him in Hell.

Why?

Because, if He caused them to live on in eternity as the rest of us, as they wish themselves to be?
They would desire to make it Hell for everyone they saw loving the Lord!

Just like some who come here with evil teachings as a means to try to hurt those with tender hearts towards the Lord!

BillyBob · 2024-07-17T16:19:53-0400

ThereRoseaLamb said:

That is a very strange concept, since each of us enter this life in the following condition:

The whole world is liable to the condemnation of God (Rom. 3:19)
All have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23)
The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23).

But isn't it wonderful that we have a gracious and merciful God who has told us:

He has mercy on whom he wishes, and he hardens whom he wishes (Rom. 9:18)
To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given (Matt. 13:11)

Therefore, I believe your image should have proclaimed that Heaven is full of those that have been forgiven in Christ! This is truly a mercy that none deserve!

The very fact that any of us receive this blessing is indeed grace beyond measure!

Genez · 2024-07-17T16:43:00-0400

BillyBob said:

When God draws a person?
What takes place is completely a private matter between that person and the Lord!

The person who was able to be drawn was not aware that it was God entering thoughts into his mind.
The thoughts just appeared in their thought process and allowed that person to think about it.
Thoughts presented by God to evaluate in the total freedom of ones own mind...
Free to accept, and like.
And, free to dislike, and reject.
FREEDOM from coercion!

So, since all the drawing of a soul takes place in the privacy of their mind?
its only God who knows whom is the kind of soul He will find acceptable.

In other words? We can have no idea whom God approves of.

He has mercy on whom he wishes, and he hardens whom he wishes (Rom. 9:18)

God was saying?

Don't bother praying for another one's salvation.
For only God knows whom He finds acceptable for entering into his glory!

How does He harden those who reject Him?
Easy...
By presenting them with the same kind of thoughts that those who believe liked.

Their 'hardness' of heart comes from the result of their disdain for such ideas that those who enter approved of.
They develop a callused soul towards God's thoughts.
Callused = hardness!

The drawing of God:

God only has mercy on those who accepted the thoughts He presented to them in the privacy of their own inner thinking.
The same type of thoughts, when presented to some whom God will reject, were antagonistic and negative to such ideas...
like how Pharaoh was exposed to the same miracles, yet became even more determined not to believe!

God's not stupid.
He knows how to get the job done right...

BillyBob · 2024-07-17T17:24:29-0400

Genez said:

You are correct - God's not stupid. He knows how to get the job done right...
It seems to me that all persons of the Godhead work together to save the sinner:

God the Father - who elects His people and gives them to Christ his son for safekeeping.
Christ - our savior who takes our sins upon himself and will let none slip through his fingers.
The Spirit - who sanctifies and make our heart ready to hear and believe the word of God.

Without a new heart we will hear, but will not believe. We will have no desire to please God!

However, it is the work of God (in three persons), and not of ourselves, that this miracle takes place!
If our salvation was based on us hearing and believing without God's intervention, we would indeed be undone!

Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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