We are born without grace, and with a fallen sinful nature. But we are not born totally depraved, and we still have free will. When we are baptized, or give our life to the Lord, we pass from death to life and are born again. After that, we re-enter the State of Grace, and have power from God to overcome sin. I believe sinless perfection is possible, as John Wesley taught. "I write these things to you, little children, that you may not sin" (1 Jn 2:1), and "Be Perfect, therefore, as Your Heavenly Father is Perfect". (Mat 5:48). Wesley did not like Calvinism. I don't think God likes it much either. There may be Good Christians who believe those errors, but comparing it to the Scriptures and Church Fathers shows that it is a later novelty. Finally, God is not the Author of Evil, that's Satan. And that is the issue with confusing the two and saying God is as responsible for Evil as for Good. He is not. All good things, as Saint James says, are from the Father of Light above, but Evil is from Satan, or from us.
Total Depravity
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You are reading far more into actually in the language used than is in the language used. God is expressing His present determination and certainty concerning His plans for Abraham. He has just appointed Abraham to become a father of many nations. he calls things that are not AS THOUGH they are - to express His present certainty that by His omnipotent power they will be so.
He is not saying anything like "In future slices of time that are already as real to me as this present, which I am observing right now at the exact same moment as I am looking at you now, Abraham, you are already there in them a Father of many nations, even while at the very same instant here you are not yet a Father. "
He is not saying anything like "In future slices of time that are already as real to me as this present, which I am observing right now at the exact same moment as I am looking at you now, Abraham, you are already there in them a Father of many nations, even while at the very same instant here you are not yet a Father. "
Mostly it seems that people have knee-jerk reactions to the word depravity without finding out
what is really meant by it. But also, quite a few are enamored with their idea that the natural man,
who is a slave to sin (taken captive to the devil's will) and hostile in his mind toward God, is free
in his will to choose to love and believe in God without God doing some work in us first. Some
go so far as to say that God not enabling everyone exactly the same makes God unjust and they
agree with those who say that God is a tyrant who kidnaps people against their will. I have
described what I believe is meant to be conveyed by total depravity here (<= link to post) .
Depravity vs. Grace
what is really meant by it. But also, quite a few are enamored with their idea that the natural man,
who is a slave to sin (taken captive to the devil's will) and hostile in his mind toward God, is free
in his will to choose to love and believe in God without God doing some work in us first. Some
go so far as to say that God not enabling everyone exactly the same makes God unjust and they
agree with those who say that God is a tyrant who kidnaps people against their will. I have
described what I believe is meant to be conveyed by total depravity here (<= link to post) .
Depravity vs. Grace
I cannot do it, So God did it for us all to be new in God's Spirit and Truth, not having any motive for any self gain in doing it, at least appearing as we got it.
Just as Jesus said to the people while he was here in the flesh then.
He said they were after, following him for the self. They were not interested in life everlasting, just getting healed now, and being able to eat freely.
He goes willingly to that cross, and says forgive them Father, for they know not what they do. Then risen and seen as risen over 500 witnesses, includes those that got him killed as revealed in Col 2
Thank you
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but friend, God doesn't say to Abraham that 'he probably will be the father of man, but maybe not, depending on man's will which even being God I can't control or fully predict since there really is no such thing as knowledge of the future'
God says Abraham already has been made the father of many nations, past fully completed action in the Greek grammar which is very specific.
Paul, speaking by the inspiration of God, calls this evidence that God speaks of things which have not happened as if they have.
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God does not tell Abraham He will make him father of many nations
He tells him he has been made father of many nations.
the open theism narrative doesn't fit the text.
you do not have the luxury of appealing to imprecise Hebrew language in Romans to dismiss the argument: Greek is precise, and we know that this is God's own Spirit interpreting Genesis.
He tells him he has been made father of many nations.
the open theism narrative doesn't fit the text.
you do not have the luxury of appealing to imprecise Hebrew language in Romans to dismiss the argument: Greek is precise, and we know that this is God's own Spirit interpreting Genesis.
The point that I'm trying to make is that there are things that only the Father knows.
Matt 24 : 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Also, the God of the old testament changed his mind, repented of some of his actions, exhibited negative emotions, and got angry at circumstances and people. Would an almighty God exhibit all those characteristics if he was totally aware of the future? For the almighty God the Father there are no surprises. I have an answer for this contradiction, but first, what's your take.
Matt 24 : 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Also, the God of the old testament changed his mind, repented of some of his actions, exhibited negative emotions, and got angry at circumstances and people. Would an almighty God exhibit all those characteristics if he was totally aware of the future? For the almighty God the Father there are no surprises. I have an answer for this contradiction, but first, what's your take.
this is Hebrew betrothal ceremony language. in the ancient custom, the groom if asked about the secret time of the snatching away of the bride, would defer all questions to his father, saying, only he knows - because it is the father of the groom who sets the time.
it doesn't mean the groom doesn't know. it means you should not be asking the groom, in fact, you should not be asking at all, but waiting for your invitation from the father to the wedding feast.
it doesn't mean the groom doesn't know. it means you should not be asking the groom, in fact, you should not be asking at all, but waiting for your invitation from the father to the wedding feast.
God's anger is not our anger.
what the 21st century western psychology calls "negative emotion" is not necessarily truly negative.
when you read something like Genesis 6:6 your reaction should be absolute amazement and wonder, not thinking that God is like me and you.
His thoughts and ways are infinitely beyond human comprehension and habits. that is the perspective to view this from. He stoops to write this book in a language we can barely understand, so we can learn something about Him.
Genesis 6:6 is not contradicting the rest of the Bible. He knows all things and nothing can shorten His arm, or resist His will. But He is compassionate, and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
the second day in Genesis 1 is not called by the scripture good. yet God did it, and God is good, therefore it is good.
division does not please Him, but division is necessary: the tares sown by the devil must be separated from the wheat by the angels, when it is ripe.
When you plant a garden in this cursed earth, some of the plants die. the righteous farmer mourns for them, but being wise, knows that it must be so, that good fruit can be produced in the soil.
Ex.32:7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Deut 9:6 Understand therefore, that the Lord thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.
7 Remember, and forget not, how thou provokedst the Lord thy God to wrath in the wilderness: from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the Lord.
8 Also in Horeb ye provoked the Lord to wrath, so that the Lord was angry with you to have destroyed you.
9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the Lord made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:
10 And the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the Lord spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.
12 And the Lord said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.
13 Furthermore the Lord spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
14 Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.
15 So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.
16 And I looked, and, behold, ye had sinned against the Lord your God, and had made you a molten calf: ye had turned aside quickly out of the way which the Lord had commanded you.
17 And I took the two tables, and cast them out of my two hands, and brake them before your eyes.
18 And I fell down before the Lord, as at the first, forty days and forty nights: I did neither eat bread, nor drink water, because of all your sins which ye sinned, in doing wickedly in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger.
19 For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure, wherewith the Lord was wroth against you to destroy you. But the Lord hearkened unto me at that time also.
20 And the Lord was very angry with Aaron to have destroyed him: and I prayed for Aaron also the same time.
Psa 106:19
They made a calf in Horeb, and worshipped the molten image.
Psa 106:20
Thus they changed their glory into the similitude of an ox that eateth grass.
Psa 106:21
They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt;
Psa 106:22
Wondrous works in the land of Ham, and terrible things by the Red sea.
Psa 106:23
Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.
God intended to destroy the Israelites and make of Moses a great nation in their place. He changed His mind. The Ever-existing is God. He can change His mind, if He decides to do so. Who are you, O man, to contradict God, and to tell us that he cannot change His mind, when He gives numerous examples in scripture of Himself doing just that.
You should not be formulating a set of propositions about what kind of God you would find worthy of worship, and then spend so much time and energy trying to convince people that scripture cannot not mean what it says, because if it did, it would present a God who does not conform to the model of Deity you have formulated for yourself, or someone else formulated for you.
8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Deut 9:6 Understand therefore, that the Lord thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.
7 Remember, and forget not, how thou provokedst the Lord thy God to wrath in the wilderness: from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the Lord.
8 Also in Horeb ye provoked the Lord to wrath, so that the Lord was angry with you to have destroyed you.
9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the Lord made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:
10 And the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the Lord spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.
12 And the Lord said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.
13 Furthermore the Lord spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
14 Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.
15 So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.
16 And I looked, and, behold, ye had sinned against the Lord your God, and had made you a molten calf: ye had turned aside quickly out of the way which the Lord had commanded you.
17 And I took the two tables, and cast them out of my two hands, and brake them before your eyes.
18 And I fell down before the Lord, as at the first, forty days and forty nights: I did neither eat bread, nor drink water, because of all your sins which ye sinned, in doing wickedly in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger.
19 For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure, wherewith the Lord was wroth against you to destroy you. But the Lord hearkened unto me at that time also.
20 And the Lord was very angry with Aaron to have destroyed him: and I prayed for Aaron also the same time.
They made a calf in Horeb, and worshipped the molten image.
Thus they changed their glory into the similitude of an ox that eateth grass.
They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt;
Wondrous works in the land of Ham, and terrible things by the Red sea.
Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.
God intended to destroy the Israelites and make of Moses a great nation in their place. He changed His mind. The Ever-existing is God. He can change His mind, if He decides to do so. Who are you, O man, to contradict God, and to tell us that he cannot change His mind, when He gives numerous examples in scripture of Himself doing just that.
You should not be formulating a set of propositions about what kind of God you would find worthy of worship, and then spend so much time and energy trying to convince people that scripture cannot not mean what it says, because if it did, it would present a God who does not conform to the model of Deity you have formulated for yourself, or someone else formulated for you.
This is a very interesting video which ends with some observations about how human minds take shortcuts and arrive at conclusions that feel reasonable to them but are not actually grounded in the available facts, This is how magicians are able to fool people into believing they have seen something magic happen. They manipulate people into taking shortcuts and making ungrounded deductions. It occurred to me that this same principle accounts for the way Calvinists became duped into thinking TULIP is true.
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