Total Depravity
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omnipotence is the quality of having unlimited power.
omniscience is the capacity to know everything.
God is omnipotent and God is omniscient.
God knowing that evil will occur is not the same as God doing the evil He knows will occur. God allows the evil within certain parameters He determines. Job is an example. Did God cause the evil which came on Job? No ... Scripture makes clear that satan was the cause. Did God limit satan's ability in bringing evil upon Job? Yes ... Scripture makes clear that satan was limited (Job 1:12). Job never blamed God for the evil that came upon him ... In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly (Job 1:22).
When the Lord Jesus Christ was born, magi came from the east to honor the King of the Jews. The magi visited Herod the king and asked where they could find Him that is born the King of the Jews. Herod sent the magi to Bethlehem after he questioned them about the timing of their having seen signs in the heavens. Herod also requested that the magi come back and give him information about Jesus. The magi brought their gifts to Jesus and went back home without returning to Herod because God had warned them in a dream that they should not return to Herod (Matt 2:12).
After the magi left, God warned Joseph to flee to Egypt because Herod would seek to kill Jesus (Matt 2:13).
Herod waited for the magi and when they did not return, Herod slew all the children in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men. When God warned Joseph to flee to Egypt so Herod could not kill Jesus, this was fulfillment of prophecy (Matt 2:15).
God warned the magi not to return to Herod ... God warned Joseph to flee to Egypt ... these warnings were given because God in His omniscience knew what Herod was going to do. That does not mean God caused Herod to seek to slay Jesus ... nor does it mean God caused Herod to slay all the children. God did spare Jesus ... but God not sparing the children in Bethlehem and surrounding areas did not equal God having killed those children. Herod killed the children ... and, according to Matt 2:17-18, this was fulfillment of prophecy.
your conclusion is incorrect, PaulThomson. God knowing evil will occur is not the same as God causing the evil.
as Genez stated: "He is the Originator of what produces those evils. But, not evil itself."
God knew I would be born ... God knew I would sin ... does that equal God causing me to sin? No. I am solely responsible (and guilty) for my own sin.
God, in His great grace, mercy, and lovingkindness did not judge me right on the spot the first time I sinned – which should have resulted in my condemnation to death (and rightly so).
God reaches out to mankind and gives each person his or her lifetime to respond to times of His reaching out. God always makes the first move in reaching out to mankind and God has determined that He will reach out to mankind through the preaching of the gospel ... those who believe will reap the blessing of having trusted God and believing Him ... those who do not believe will reap the consequence of not having trusted God and not believing Him.
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omniscience is the capacity to know everything.
God is omnipotent and God is omniscient.
God knowing that evil will occur is not the same as God doing the evil He knows will occur. God allows the evil within certain parameters He determines. Job is an example. Did God cause the evil which came on Job? No ... Scripture makes clear that satan was the cause. Did God limit satan's ability in bringing evil upon Job? Yes ... Scripture makes clear that satan was limited (Job 1:12). Job never blamed God for the evil that came upon him ... In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly (Job 1:22).
When the Lord Jesus Christ was born, magi came from the east to honor the King of the Jews. The magi visited Herod the king and asked where they could find Him that is born the King of the Jews. Herod sent the magi to Bethlehem after he questioned them about the timing of their having seen signs in the heavens. Herod also requested that the magi come back and give him information about Jesus. The magi brought their gifts to Jesus and went back home without returning to Herod because God had warned them in a dream that they should not return to Herod (Matt 2:12).
After the magi left, God warned Joseph to flee to Egypt because Herod would seek to kill Jesus (Matt 2:13).
Herod waited for the magi and when they did not return, Herod slew all the children in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men. When God warned Joseph to flee to Egypt so Herod could not kill Jesus, this was fulfillment of prophecy (Matt 2:15).
God warned the magi not to return to Herod ... God warned Joseph to flee to Egypt ... these warnings were given because God in His omniscience knew what Herod was going to do. That does not mean God caused Herod to seek to slay Jesus ... nor does it mean God caused Herod to slay all the children. God did spare Jesus ... but God not sparing the children in Bethlehem and surrounding areas did not equal God having killed those children. Herod killed the children ... and, according to Matt 2:17-18, this was fulfillment of prophecy.
your conclusion is incorrect, PaulThomson. God knowing evil will occur is not the same as God causing the evil.
as Genez stated: "He is the Originator of what produces those evils. But, not evil itself."
God knew I would be born ... God knew I would sin ... does that equal God causing me to sin? No. I am solely responsible (and guilty) for my own sin.
God, in His great grace, mercy, and lovingkindness did not judge me right on the spot the first time I sinned – which should have resulted in my condemnation to death (and rightly so).
God reaches out to mankind and gives each person his or her lifetime to respond to times of His reaching out. God always makes the first move in reaching out to mankind and God has determined that He will reach out to mankind through the preaching of the gospel ... those who believe will reap the blessing of having trusted God and believing Him ... those who do not believe will reap the consequence of not having trusted God and not believing Him.
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Does God know how much the Ring of Power weighs? Does God know how tall the person was who forged it? Does God know how many litres of water will exist on Dune?
I agree. God knows everything that is real as it truly is.
Ironically, this statement relies on ascribing to God a knowledge that is the same kind as human knowledge: something I have been accused of doing and have been told is unwarranted. I am told that because God is a different order of being, we should not ascribe to Him a human kind of knowing: which would be in this case one that does not cause the thing known to be so.
We agree on this.
Job had not sinned or charged God foolishly... yet. But hey, it's only Chapter 1. But as the book proceeds,Job does not fare so well.
Job accuses God of attacking him with terrifying violence (16:9–14) for no reason (9:17). Job names God an amoral tyrant who destroys everyone regardless of moral character (9:22), who laughs at good people when they suffer disaster (v. 23), and deliberately frustrates the execution of justice in the world (v. 24; see further 12:13–25). In Job’s horrifying new vision of the universe, God is a moral monster, and his creation a kind of inner city ghetto, filled with the unanswered screams of the innocent (21:7–34). (This list I have lifted from https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/how-did-job-speak-rightly-about-god/#:~:text=Much in contrast, Job accuses,when they suffer disaster (v.
Job did speak rightly in finally confessing that he was in the wrong to accuse God ignorantly. But he certainly wasn't in the right throughout the book.
God could easily have known what Herod was plotting to do from past and present knowledge. He did not need to know it from eternity past.
I agree. God knows everything that is real as it truly is.
Ironically, this statement relies on ascribing to God a knowledge that is the same kind as human knowledge: something I have been accused of doing and have been told is unwarranted. I am told that because God is a different order of being, we should not ascribe to Him a human kind of knowing: which would be in this case one that does not cause the thing known to be so.
We agree on this.
Job had not sinned or charged God foolishly... yet. But hey, it's only Chapter 1. But as the book proceeds,Job does not fare so well.
Job accuses God of attacking him with terrifying violence (16:9–14) for no reason (9:17). Job names God an amoral tyrant who destroys everyone regardless of moral character (9:22), who laughs at good people when they suffer disaster (v. 23), and deliberately frustrates the execution of justice in the world (v. 24; see further 12:13–25). In Job’s horrifying new vision of the universe, God is a moral monster, and his creation a kind of inner city ghetto, filled with the unanswered screams of the innocent (21:7–34). (This list I have lifted from https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/how-did-job-speak-rightly-about-god/#:~:text=Much in contrast, Job accuses,when they suffer disaster (v.
Job did speak rightly in finally confessing that he was in the wrong to accuse God ignorantly. But he certainly wasn't in the right throughout the book.
God could easily have known what Herod was plotting to do from past and present knowledge. He did not need to know it from eternity past.
Job had not sinned or charged God foolishly... yet. But hey, it's only Chapter 1. But as the book proceeds,Job does not fare so well.
Job accuses God of attacking him with terrifying violence (16:9–14) for no reason (9:17). Job names God an amoral tyrant who destroys everyone regardless of moral character (9:22), who laughs at good people when they suffer disaster (v. 23), and deliberately frustrates the execution of justice in the world (v. 24; see further 12:13–25). In Job’s horrifying new vision of the universe, God is a moral monster, and his creation a kind of inner city ghetto, filled with the unanswered screams of the innocent (21:7–34). (This list I have lifted from https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/how-did-job-speak-rightly-about-god/#:~:text=Much in contrast, Job accuses,when they suffer disaster (v.
Job did speak rightly in finally confessing that he was in the wrong to accuse God ignorantly. But he certainly wasn't in the right throughout the book.[/QUOTE]
42 Then Job answered the Lord, and said,
2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
7 And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
The thing that is right was -
"2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."
Job accuses God of attacking him with terrifying violence (16:9–14) for no reason (9:17). Job names God an amoral tyrant who destroys everyone regardless of moral character (9:22), who laughs at good people when they suffer disaster (v. 23), and deliberately frustrates the execution of justice in the world (v. 24; see further 12:13–25). In Job’s horrifying new vision of the universe, God is a moral monster, and his creation a kind of inner city ghetto, filled with the unanswered screams of the innocent (21:7–34). (This list I have lifted from https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/how-did-job-speak-rightly-about-god/#:~:text=Much in contrast, Job accuses,when they suffer disaster (v.
Job did speak rightly in finally confessing that he was in the wrong to accuse God ignorantly. But he certainly wasn't in the right throughout the book.[/QUOTE]
42 Then Job answered the Lord, and said,
2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
7 And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
The thing that is right was -
"2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."
you introduced into the thread the idea of de Broglie waves as descriptive of the future of the universe, which is a quantum mechanical argument:
you employed this as an attempt to explain that God cannot know the future because the actions of free will beings are unpredictable.
as though, life is a dice game and God can only guess how it turns out. He can load the dice, you say, and He is really good at guessing because He is pretty smart, but overall it's impossible for Him to know the future, all He can do is force certain futures to come about -
rather, He can try to, but you leave open the possibility that clever human and angelic will can overcome His plans, because they are unknowable.
the open theism position effectively has a god who is trapped in time just like humans, a creator who is enslaved by his own creation.
you employed this as an attempt to explain that God cannot know the future because the actions of free will beings are unpredictable.
as though, life is a dice game and God can only guess how it turns out. He can load the dice, you say, and He is really good at guessing because He is pretty smart, but overall it's impossible for Him to know the future, all He can do is force certain futures to come about -
rather, He can try to, but you leave open the possibility that clever human and angelic will can overcome His plans, because they are unknowable.
the open theism position effectively has a god who is trapped in time just like humans, a creator who is enslaved by his own creation.
I never mentions de Broglie, If God is omnipotent no one can prevent Him from ensuring an event happens that He has determined will happen. So, no, if God is unwilling to let a human or angelic will overcome a particular plan of His, no human or angelic will can overcome that particular plan. People vary in their opinions on just how many particular plans God makes and just how many of those, and for how long, He is willing to allow men and angels to divert off the original course.
GaLMiY (My unformed substance)
Ra"U (Qal perfect , did see, 3 common pl. )
'eYNeyK (your eyes , common dual construct)
W-'aL (and in)
SiPhRKa (your book)
KoL-aM (all)
YiCTheBU (Niphal imperfect , were being written)
YoMiYM (days/daily ,common masculine plural)
YeTsRU (Pual perfect 3 common Plural , had been predetermined)
W-Lo" (and not)
"eChaD (one , common masc. s. absolute)
BaHeM (among them , 3 masc. pl.)
Your eyes did see my unformed substance, and in your book the days were being written; and not one of them [days] had been predetermined.
The Hebrew says the days were being written (imperfect) as they occurred, not that they had already been written (perfect) before they occur. The Hebrew says to me that God was noting days as they were occurring in the womb in real time and remembering them (this noting and remembering expressed poetically as recording them in a book). It also says to me that not one of the days was predetermined, but to God they were all fascinating and novel in their detail as He watched my DNA guide my body's growth in the womb.
Blue letter Bible
YaTsaR -
TWOT reference 898
... C. (Pual) to be predetermined, be preordained.
Ra"U (Qal perfect , did see, 3 common pl. )
'eYNeyK (your eyes , common dual construct)
W-'aL (and in)
SiPhRKa (your book)
KoL-aM (all)
YiCTheBU (Niphal imperfect , were being written)
YoMiYM (days/daily ,common masculine plural)
YeTsRU (Pual perfect 3 common Plural , had been predetermined)
W-Lo" (and not)
"eChaD (one , common masc. s. absolute)
BaHeM (among them , 3 masc. pl.)
Your eyes did see my unformed substance, and in your book the days were being written; and not one of them [days] had been predetermined.
The Hebrew says the days were being written (imperfect) as they occurred, not that they had already been written (perfect) before they occur. The Hebrew says to me that God was noting days as they were occurring in the womb in real time and remembering them (this noting and remembering expressed poetically as recording them in a book). It also says to me that not one of the days was predetermined, but to God they were all fascinating and novel in their detail as He watched my DNA guide my body's growth in the womb.
Blue letter Bible
YaTsaR -
TWOT reference 898
... C. (Pual) to be predetermined, be preordained.