Not By Works

[HeIsHere]

Oh sure it does:

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

And you better believe it buddy. It has appeared to everyone and not everyone will be saved even though God WANTS everyone to be saved as the new testament clearly teaches (2 peter 3:9, 1 tim 2:4)

WHY NOT? Because not all believe the gospel? WHY NOT? because they reject the grace of God just like the israelites did in the wilderness and just like the pharisees rejected God's will for them (Luke 7:30) not being baptized by John. Why do men reject? Because their deeds were evil, so they don't want to come into the light. The ones who humble themselves and repent will be saved. As it says: God will exalt the humble.

The issue and the false teaching concerns the concept of "effectual" and "irresistible grace."

It has nothing to do with self-righteousness that is just silly.

Matthew‬ ‭23:12‬, “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.”

In other words, you must humble yourself OR God will do it for you in judgment.
Yet, Calvinists teach God effectually humbles everyone:
1) On Calvinism God effectually humbles the elect unto salvation. ‭‭
And
2) On Calvinism God effectually humbles the non-elect unto damnation.

You must ask yourself if this was Christ’s intent in this passage or any other?
Is God responsible for whether or not you humbly confess your sin or is that your responsibility?
(Soteriology 101)

 

[HeIsHere]

Calvinists must read between the lines of the hearts that don't follow the Calvinist logic.

"Those non-Calvinists must be full of pride to not agree with Calvinism!"

You ever met a person who accepted the Calvinist logic who did not also claim to be among the chosen few?

You will not.

What a shock.

It's all in the language.

What is Calvinist marketing language:
The language of advertising is, of course, normally very positive, emphasizing desirable aspects of a product, often by the use of illusions.
Consumers know that marketing language often falls short of being “honest”.
It is often the language of half-truths, designed to make the product appear desirable, by strategically hiding the WHOLE truth.
Lawyers colloquially call obtaining the WHOLE truth: “reading the fine print”.

William Lane Craig quote:
”Calvinists consistently FALL SHORT of enunciating the RADICAL distinctions within their system”.

Dr. Craig, always the gentleman, is here – alluding to the language of Calvinism.
Without accusatory-harsh criticism, he is alerting us to the fact that it “consistently falls short of enunciating” the WHOLE truth concerning itself.

Hence – Calvinist language is all too often marketing language.
In vain is the net spread in the sight of any bird. Proverbs 1:17
Arm yourself accordingly. :-]
(Soteriology 101)

 

[HeIsHere]

Oh sure it does:

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

And you better believe it buddy. It has appeared to everyone and not everyone will be saved even though God WANTS everyone to be saved as the new testament clearly teaches (2 peter 3:9, 1 tim 2:4)

WHY NOT? Because not all believe the gospel? WHY NOT? because they reject the grace of God just like the israelites did in the wilderness and just like the pharisees rejected God's will for them (Luke 7:30) not being baptized by John. Why do men reject? Because their deeds were evil, so they don't want to come into the light. The ones who humble themselves and repent will be saved. As it says: God will exalt the humble.

Word games once again, Calvin's commentary:

Bringing salvation to all men,[4] That it is common to all is expressly testified by him on account of the slaves of whom he had spoken. Yet he does not mean individual men, but rather describes individual classes, or various ranks of life. And this is not a little emphatic, that the grace of God hath let itself down even to the race of slaves; for, since God does not despise men of the lowest and most degraded condition, it would be highly unreasonable that we should be negligent and slothful to embrace his goodness.
https://sacred-texts.com/chr/calvin/cc43/cc43021.htm


Calvin’s shocking commentary on Titus 2:11 that makes ‘all people’ equal ‘all classes of people’ is an example of how a theologian’s Calvinistic presuppositions are imposed on a text to arrive at an interpretation consistent with his premises. This is an example of eisegesis – imposing Calvin’s predetermined view on the text. It also is a question begging logical fallacy.

An exegesis of the text discovers that God’s grace appears to all people with the view to salvation. We don’t know when that happens as it is not stated in the text. But we do know that all people who have ever lived have experienced this grace to make salvation available to them when the Gospel is preached.
https://www.truthchallenge.one/blog/2015/10/17/calvins-appalling-interpretation-of-all-men/

 

[Hakawaka]

Well, this passage seems pretty clear to me. Wondering what you do with it.

ROMANS 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Tough verses for sure.

Its not really that tough. There are thousands of Romans 9 commentaries from non-calvinists. There are also church fathers, and since nobody believed the way calvinists do before Augustine, it would amount to being the vast majority of the commentaries on Romans 9.

Here is one verse by verse: https://soteriology101.com/2015/05/07/line-by-line-through-romans-9/

The conclusion of the chapter is also quite telling:

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

But wait? I thought no one can have faith? So how could they have sought it by faith? Oh yeah.. cause people CAN and do have faith.

 

[PennEd]

Its not really that tough. There are thousands of Romans 9 commentaries from non-calvinists. There are also church fathers, and since nobody believed the way calvinists do before Augustine, it would amount to being the vast majority of the commentaries on Romans 9.

Here is one verse by verse: https://soteriology101.com/2015/05/07/line-by-line-through-romans-9/

The conclusion of the chapter is also quite telling:

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

But wait? I thought no one can have faith? So how could they have sought it by faith? Oh yeah.. cause people CAN and do have faith.

See, here's the problem I have with this. You guys don't like when alternate interpretations from the way the text reads are given for passages like the "God is not willing" in Peter and a couple others.

Yet you want to be afforded the exact same type of alternate interpretations from crystal clear passages like the one in Romans 9.


Why do you get to have it your way? I can post a billion Pastors and commentaries that say YOU guys are wrong.

 

[Hakawaka]

See, here's the problem I have with this. You guys don't like when alternate interpretations from the way the text reads are given for passages like the "God is not willing" in Peter and a couple others.

Yet you want to be afforded the exact same type of alternate interpretations from crystal clear passages like the one in Romans 9.


Why do you get to have it your way? I can post a billion Pastors and commentaries that say YOU guys are wrong.

The reason for that is there are alternative ways to reading Romans 9, but there is really no way to read 1 Tim 2:4 in any other way, i've heard all the commentary on it by James White and MacArthur, they just don't convince me. It would be convincing if this was just one passage, but the fact that its mentioned so many times that Jesus died for every man, all, everyone, the world, not for us only but for the world, savior of all men, especially those who believe and on and on. Its really hard to explain that away you know?

Where as Romans 9 is clearly talking about nations, Esau the Edomites and Jacob the Israelites. If you read the verses Paul quotes this makes it clear, Rebecca is told you have to NATIONS in you. Elder shall serve the younger, the man Esau never served Jacob.

Plus the story continues on in Romans 11, and Paul is explaining through these chapters why it is that Israel to whom the promises were made, who are the elect, why are they lost? Why did they reject the Messiah? Paul makes the point that not all Israel is Israel, that the promises were never to the unfaithful ones, but the faithful remnant. But im sure you already know the alternative interpretation(s).

 

[HeIsHere]

It would be convincing if this was just one passage, but the fact that its mentioned so many times that Jesus died for every man, all, everyone, the world, not for us only but for the world, savior of all men, especially those who believe and on and on. Its really hard to explain that away you know?

Amen

 

[HeIsHere]

Its not really that tough. There are thousands of Romans 9 commentaries from non-calvinists. There are also church fathers, and since nobody believed the way calvinists do before Augustine, it would amount to being the vast majority of the commentaries on Romans 9.

Here is one verse by verse: https://soteriology101.com/2015/05/07/line-by-line-through-romans-9/

The conclusion of the chapter is also quite telling:

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

But wait? I thought no one can have faith? So how could they have sought it by faith? Oh yeah.. cause people CAN and do have faith.

Audience relevance is always paramount.
Paul was explaining things to the people who would receive the letters and it was about things that were occurring and would continue to be fulfilled in their lifetime.

 

[Lamar]

Serious questions.

Does anyone know of a theologian or even lay person who accepts the tenets of Calvinism as correct but does not believe he is among the chosen few?

How does a proclaimed Calvinist know that he is among the chosen few?

Is it possible to believe the tenets of Calvinism but not know your status among the chosen damned or chosen saved?

Is believing in Calvinism evidence of being among the chosen few?

 

[PennEd]

The reason for that is there are alternative ways to reading Romans 9,

That is completely YOUR opinion.

The text unambiguously says the Lord will have mercy upon who He will have mercy upon.

An alternative way of reading Peter is to say as Cameron said, that all men refer to all groups of people, for all times, not just the Jews or early Church.

You want your way of interpreting Scripture to be the only way. Even when the text says the opposite.

 

[Lamar]

That is completely YOUR opinion.

Unless someone is claiming esoteric knowledge, of course this is his opinion...all of this is opinion.

The text unambiguously says the Lord will have mercy upon who He will have mercy upon.

Yes, God will have mercy upon who He will have mercy upon. That's it. No need to read into it.

Why make it more confusing by insisting that His will is predestined?

Why insist that we cannot all call upon that mercy?

Why must the saved be but a chosen few?

Why are all men called to repentance but none can repent?

Why are we called to confess and believe in the name of the Lord if we simply cannot?

This is the ditch that Calvinism leads to in the end.

 

[Lynx]

This thread is STILL going...

It's like watching a soap opera. The names may change, but the same plots keep coming around over and over again.

Every argument that one might come up with has already been stated many, sometimes hundreds of times.

 

[Magenta]

Well, this passage seems pretty clear to me. Wondering what you do with it.

ROMANS 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Tough verses for sure.

Romans 9:19-21 One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

Romans 9:25-26

 

[Magenta]

This thread is STILL going...

It's like watching a soap opera. The names may change, but the same plots keep coming around over and over again.

Every argument that one might come up with has already been stated many, sometimes hundreds of times.

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

This is where he is getting it from:
Titus 2:11-3:9
New King James Version
Trained by Saving Grace
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.


But the very CORE of the issue, that has remained unanswered, is if the Grace that brings salvation appeared to all men is true, and it OBVIOUSLY is, WHY haven't ALL men accepted Him?

" Well I repented, heard the Gospel, humbled myself, confessed my need for Him, and accepted Him"

Great!!

Why did YOU do that and Joe Schmo, hearing the SAME Gospel, refuse Him?

ARE YOU BETTER, MORE MORAL, SMARTER, MORE HUMBLE THAN JOE SCHMO?

Or is rather because God intervened on YOUR behalf?

well we were not better, we were both worthy of condemnation.

we were not smarter. We both were deep in sin

we were not humble because we both were deep in sin

One of us understood out plight and be Amelie the tax collector. And called out For gods mercy..
the other did not.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The grace of God that brings salvation is the cross. All men is like the world in John 3:16. It refers to all people groups, not all people.
Salvation was formerly almost exclusively for Jews before the cross. NT writers were eager to make it known that salvation was now open to all the nations. And this was always God's plan, as heaven is populated by people of every nation, kindred, tribe, and tongue.

lol.. Gods work is capable of saving all.. Not all people groups. All the world..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Well, this passage seems pretty clear to me. Wondering what you do with it.

ROMANS 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Tough verses for sure.

Depends

do we take the fatalist view. That Has God hating babies and not even giving them a chance to repent. And forcing Pharaoh to do his bidding.

Or the actual view?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

See, here's the problem I have with this. You guys don't like when alternate interpretations from the way the text reads are given for passages like the "God is not willing" in Peter and a couple others.

Yet you want to be afforded the exact same type of alternate interpretations from crystal clear passages like the one in Romans 9.


Why do you get to have it your way? I can post a billion Pastors and commentaries that say YOU guys are wrong.

The fatalistic view of Rom 9 is not crystal clear..

That is pride talking, not reality,

if it was Crystal clear people would have believed it before Augustine

 

[Cameron143]

lol.. Gods work is capable of saving all.. Not all people groups. All the world..

So people are in hell who's sins have been paid for?

 

[Magenta]

It has nothing to do with self-righteousness that is just silly.

Matthew‬ ‭23:12‬, “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.”

In other words, you must humble yourself OR God will do it for you in judgment.

Oh, silly to think one would be humbled to be under God's righteous judgment?

So so silly to think the conviction of the Holy Spirit of God would humble anyone?

One can only conclude you have never felt such conviction. Your silly self-righteousness prohibits it.