Does anyone know of....

[Magenta]

This is hilarious.

So let's look at why it is taught in the Bible from almost the first day of creation: So God created man
in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Gen 1:27)

Does God have free will? Absolutely. Did He create man in his image (which includes the ability to make free decisions)? Absolutely.

Do we see this illustrated in Genesis 2:16,17? And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Some people would have this verse like this in order to believe that mankind has free will:
1. Adam you can eat of every tree in Eden with one exception.
2. You are forbidden to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
3. But because you have free will, you could choose to disobey me. I hope you don't.
4. However, be warned -- on the day that you disobey me and eat that fruit, you will surely die.

You speak as if you were not a fallen man at any point in time. Very false of you. Plus,
God knew what choice Adam would make. He was of the natural world, after all.

Created in God's image: Does that make you omniscient? Omnipotent? Such logical fallacies you present.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Does anyone know of people who are convinced of the validity of the tenets of Calvinism and are also assured that they are not part of those chosen few?

If we can be assured of our salvation because of predestination, can the opposite be true of our damnation?

It would have to be if only the pre determined folks will be saved based upon pre ordination . inherantly anyone who isn’t saved is predestined to be doomed.

It can’t be that some are ore destined to be saved but the ones lost that’s not part of the plan. It’s a huge hole in the thought that God determines everything independent of mankind’s agency . His determinations go through mankind’s agency which involves them in all of it

Gods Will is not that anyone will perish but that everyone would come to repentance . This shows that it’s not determined by Gods Will independent of mans choice.

“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Hes not forcing them he’s being patient giving us time to repent and not perish his will is that everyone would hear and believe the gospel but they won’t all do that


“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭NIV‬‬

his Will is that man is saved so he sent out salvstion to all creatures

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( Gods Will )

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”( not gods will )
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He died so everyone can be saved it’s an offer made by God for free to anyone in all creation who hears and believes the gospel not a mandated dictation and control excercise wheras some are pre determined as lost and others pre deternined as saved

The only chosen and preordained is Christ Jesus the man then anyone that repents and believes in him becomes chosen by his name not thier name his name they are pre destined because they have taken on his name and identity

awe aren’t pre determined to accept or reject the gospel or to do only good or only evil that’s all what we do and what we’ll face God for

 

[Hakawaka]

You seem to have completely missed the two aspects of God's Sovereign will.

God has both an "Active" will and a "Passive" will. Are better stated, a "Direct" will and a "Permissive" will.

When God acts in His Direct will, nothing can stop what has been directed to occur or has been promised by Him. In the case of His Permissive will, God "allows" it to take place but does not direct it to take place. Therefore, God "allowed" sin/evil to enter into Creation but did not direct it or it's actions. However, He did "Plan" or "Direct" a resolution for it, in Jesus Christ, Election, Regeneration, Justification and eventually Glorification.

This I will give a pass to, atleast God isnt the devil in this system by the looks of it

 

[Hakawaka]

I do not think I know anyone personally, most who hold to these tenets tended to be more assured of their salvation based the tenet that the saints of God will preserver.

However, Derek Webb, former Calvinist (singer/song writer) came up on a different thread.

These are lyrics from his song. he became an atheist.

Consider these lyrics from the song which closes his new album, “Goodbye For Now:”

“So either you aren’t real
Or I am just not chosen
Maybe I’ll never know
Either way my heart is broken
As I say, goodbye for now”

So tragic.

So sad! What this theology can do

 

[Nehemiah6]

You speak as if you were not a fallen man at any point in time.

What does that have to do with what I posted, which totally refuted your position? How could Adam make a decision one way or another without free will? And how do you make decisions without free will?

Created in God's image: Does that make you omniscient? Omnipotent? Such logical fallacies you present.

This is completely off topic so why is it even in the post of yours?

 

[Hakawaka]

Making choices does not equate to having a will that is free.

Not to worry. Jesus can set you free.

That is what the Bible teaches.

Not your error. Many make the same error.

Making choices does not equate to having free will, true!
BUT: if God tells you to: CHOOSE LIFE, and you are incapable of doing it, God is just trolling you?

I just don't get it. You guys have a terrible view of God. He is like the biggest troll in the universe? No human would be considered good if they behaved like this, yet some of you claim God does this?

 

[Cameron143]

What does that have to do with what I posted, which totally refuted your position? How could Adam make a decision one way or another without free will? And how do you make decisions without free will?
This is completely off topic so why is it even in the post of yours?

Adam had freewill until he sinned. Then he became a slave to sin.
One has only to look at his behavior after sin to see this is so.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Does anyone know of people who are convinced of the validity of the tenets of Calvinism and are also assured that they are not part of those chosen few

That would be contradictory, so there are no such people.

 

[Lamar]

Free will is not taught in the Bible. Not. Any. Where.

Matthew 23:37
New International Version
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.



Revelation 22:17
New International Version
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.




John 7:17
New International Version
17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

And many more.

P.S. I am using my free will to write these things.....................I hope.

 

[Lamar]

Adam had freewill until he sinned. Then he became a slave to sin.
One has only to look at his behavior after sin to see this is so.

Even slaves have free will.

Daniel, Joseph, Onesimus etc.

Why do you insist so hard that you are not in control of your decisions?

 

[Lamar]

Not your error. Many make the same error.

If it is not "my" error then I am not among the "many" who make them.

 

[Magenta]

Even slaves have free will.

Daniel, Joseph, Onesimus etc.

Why do you insist so hard that you are not in control of your decisions?

Why do you resist so hard accepting what the Bible teaches?

P.S. I am using my free will to write these things.....................I hope.

Are you a Christian? Have you been set free?

Making choices does not equate to having a will that is free.

The Bible teaches no such thing as free will.

You are either a slave to righteousness, or sin.

Make all the choices you like, and squint really hard, maybe even pinch your glutes.

Will not make your will free.

What does that have to do with what I posted, which totally refuted your position? How could Adam make a decision one way or another without free will? And how do you make decisions without free will?
This is completely off topic so why is it even in the post of yours?

Nothing you said refuted my position. You claim since God's will is free, so is ours, because we are created in
His image, yet God is ominscient and omnipotent and we are not, but you are too dense to get it. Tant pis.

.

 

[Cameron143]

Even slaves have free will.

Daniel, Joseph, Onesimus etc.

Why do you insist so hard that you are not in control of your decisions?

One can make all the choices they want, but they cannot make those choices outside of their spiritual condition. Neither can they guarantee an outcome.

A slave can run away. He's still a slave. He isn't suddenly free. Neither is a slave to sin free simply because they don't overtly sin. Their heart is still contrary to God and they do not seek after Him.

Understanding the gospel isn't the problem. Seeing their need in light of it is. They are blind, not to the gospel, but the LIGHT of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God...Light is the understanding they lack. The gospel is foolishness to them. That is part of what it means to be a slave to sin.

 

[Magenta]

Making choices does not equate to having free will, true!
BUT: if God tells you to: CHOOSE LIFE, and you are incapable of doing it, God is just trolling you?

I just don't get it. You guys have a terrible view of God. He is like the biggest troll in the universe? No
human would be considered good if they behaved like this, yet some of you claim God does this?

Even Peter said that which was laid on them was impossible for any to keep or do.

But you think you can keep the commandments? Wow. You are as great or greater than Jesus Christ Himself!

What need of you for Him??? Even He prayed for God to supersede His will.

Romans 11:32

 

[Lamar]

To all these Calvinists who are pushing this "choice vs. free will" nonsense remember this verse:

Matthew 23:37
New International Version
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

There is no point in the Bible even being written if we do not have a free choice in the matter.

Your words are but philosophical gobbledygook.

 

[HeIsHere]

Notice Calvinism bolsters the worst in human nature by design.

If "man' is BORN morally incapable or morally unwilling .....if this moral belief and decision isn’t possible, why would any other moral belief or choice be an option.

Why does constraint of belief only apply to salvation? People make moral choices all the time.

NO ONE is stating we save ourselves and yet this doctrine strips humanity of the ability/willingness to accept or reject Christ.
The freedom to be self aware and honest about personal weakness and failure.

Slave to sin does not equate to being unwilling or unable, it means not being able to free ourselves totally from sin.

Jesus emphasized this simplicity.
The person that hears my word and believes on Him that sent me has everlasting life. . . John 5:24

No it does not state "the person I selected to enable to hear my words."

 

[HeIsHere]

To all these Calvinists who are pushing this "choice vs. free will" nonsense remember this verse:

Matthew 23:37
New International Version
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

There is no point in the Bible even being written if we do not have a free choice in the matter.

Your words are but philosophical gobbledygook.

We can thank Augustine....

Augustine said, “By Adam’s transgression, the freedom of’ the human will has been completely lost.”

Augustine said, “By the greatness of the first sin, we have lost the freewill to love God.”

Augustine said, “by subverting the rectitude in which he was created, he is followed with the punishment of not being able to do right” and “the freedom to abstain from sin has been lost as a punishment of sin.”
(City of God)

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This I will give a pass to, atleast God isnt the devil in this system by the looks of it

indeed where’s the place for this ?

“ if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Surely thier captivity in satans trap serving his Will is not Gods Will and plan for mankind

But his plan and Will is found in the escape plan that sets captives free through the knowledge of the truth

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Mans corrupted will

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5‬ ‭

where it exists in man and what it causes

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What can change it

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

where we find it

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”


“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

hearing the gospel and not rejecting what the lords teaching believers is able to take that part of us inside , that craves and wants to sin and causes us to commit those sins , and can starve tbat and refill us with the Will God found in his words of the gospel if we hear and believe it becomes our faith our system of beliefs in our minds

mans free Will is the Will of God found in the gospel

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭

“For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭3:35‬ ‭

Man’s purpose it to carry out Gods Will being made in his image and walking by his Will this was Gods purpose in creating mankind his Will is where man’s freedom is found.

 

[Cameron143]

To all these Calvinists who are pushing this "choice vs. free will" nonsense remember this verse:

Matthew 23:37
New International Version
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

There is no point in the Bible even being written if we do not have a free choice in the matter.

Your words are but philosophical gobbledygook.

Why weren't they willing?

 

[Magenta]

To all these Calvinists who are pushing this "choice vs. free will" nonsense remember this verse:

Matthew 23:37
New International Version
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

There is no point in the Bible even being written if we do not have a free choice in the matter.

Your words are but philosophical gobbledygook.

I acknowledge that the natural man has a heart that is incapable of loving or choosing God and that God must perform a work in the person who is hostile in their mind toward Him before they will make that choice. That is what the Bible teaches despite the philosophical gobbldygook you promote.