Does anyone know of....

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Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Or that doing so FORCES them to believe. We hear that one too often as well.

Also characterized as God forcibly kidnapping people against their will.

Then we are told that is what we believe, which is simply slander.

I love how you explained it as God's love...

But liars love their lies.
Yes, above all else it is God's love for his people that actually saves us! His love moves him, compels him, causes him to save all those upon whom he has set his affections in eternity.

This morning, I spent some devotional time in Psalm 10. This psalm describes the wicked and their victims. The wicked are portrayed with the third person personal pronoun "he". "He boasts..." (v.3), "He says to himself..." (v.6), "He lies in wait...", etc. The third person possessive pronoun is also used to describe "his arrogance" (v.2), "in all his thoughts..." (v.4), "His ways are always..." (v. 5), "His mouth is full of curses...", etc.

Conversely, the victims of the wicked are portrayed as "the weak" (v.2), "who are caught in the schemes" of the wicked (v.2), as "enemies" of the wicked (v. 5), as being the "innocent" (v.8), as being the "helpless" (v.9) etc.

Then the Lord tuned a light bulb on in my mind. It occurred to me that there could be an even deeper spiritual meaning to this Psalm than I had heretofore ever realized. After all, all the "wicked" of this world are the seed of the Evil One -- the devil! So, ultimately all wicked humans are willingly doing the bidding of their spiritual father! And his will is that all God's people (his enemies) should be oppressed, abused, persecuted, murdered, afflicted, etc.

The "whole world" lies under the power of the evil one (1Jn 5:19), and he is leading the" whole world" astray (Rev 12:9) by blinding the minds of all unbelievers (2Cor 4:4). The "whole world", therefore, is as much under bondage today to Satan as the ancient Hebrews were to the devil's OT type (Pharaoh) in the Exodus. Neither group have "free" will! Neither had the power to extricate themselves from their horrendous situation. The problem in both cases was GOD-sized, not man-sized! Hence, in this New Covenant age God's chosen "firstborn" are also helpless (Rom 5:6) and in dire need of rescuing from the kingdom of darkness (Col 1:13).

Then these two verses in the Psalm struck a huge chord with me:

Ps 10:14-15
14 But you, O God, do see trouble and grief;
you consider it to take it in hand.

The victim commits himself to you;
you are the helper of the fatherless.

15 Break the arm of the wicked and evil man;
call him to account for his wickedness
that would not be found out.

NIV

It's noteworthy, I think, that scripture often talks about the "fatherless" but never to the "motherless". Could the "fatherless" in this passage also have deeper, spiritual meaning? Again, we know from scripture that the devil is the [spiritual] father of all his people (Gen 3:15; Jn 8:44). So, when the text says that God is "the helper of the fatherless", could these "fatherless" be the elect who were predestined in eternity to not have Satan as their spiritual father because, instead, they were predestined to become sons of Abraham by faith upon their new birth?

It's also interesting that the "victim" commits himself to God; and of course he does this by saving faith.

Just some food for thought... Satan plays a much, much larger part in God's redemptive plan of history than I think many in the Church today realize. He's the quintessential super villain in the plot -- a co-star even on the world stage in God's redemptive story that also has a huge sub-plot of Good vs. Evil. And once again, we can see this truth shine through in Natural Revelation since the Number One theme in books, movies and plays is good vs. evil. This is the most recurring theme in storytelling! Good guys, v.s bad guys. Heroes vs. villains, etc. And not only do we see this in the entertainment world, but on the world's political stage as well! On this stage we see the self-proclaimed wise, elite, good guys who know how to save the world vs. know-nothing, willfully ignorant rubes who are the bad guys always impeding the progress of the worldly wise.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
1,644
159
63
And yet, those God would not let into the Promise Land and then attempted after their own children went were killed and God told them they would die and so did Moses. Those were supposedly chosen people and yet they died in disobedience. If they had a circumcised heart they would have obeyed.
Having a tough time understanding what you're trying to say here.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,575
785
113
Okay but what about the question?

Do you know of anyone?
The question.
If we can be assured of our salvation because of predestination, can the opposite be true of our damnation?
The claim that the predestination of an individual to salvation is a true statement.

Is a claim based on a specific interpretation of scripture with the full emphasis on the
sovereignty of God. The axiom of Calvinism starts with the sovereignty of God.

Calvinism (the tenets) is an intellectual construction, a claim at best. This holds true
for every other interpretation of the scripture. They are all claims nevertheless and that's
why an endless debate will follow.

So agreeing with the tenets of Calvinism has nothing to do with one's own
salvation. We know how salvation is gifted to humanity because we have been
told by Paul. Salvation is not based on an intellectual set of tenants.

Therefore, knowing how salvation occurs does not correlate in anyway with a person's
own salvation.

I know of scholars of the New Testament who are atheists, agnostics, e.t.c.

The same holds true for theology and Calvinism would be well understood
by folk who do not have faith in Jesus.

You can hold a statement to be true but not actually believe in the truth
of that statement.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,575
785
113
Okay so is the opposite true?

In other words, is the claim that predestination of an individual to damnation is a true statement?
That opposite claim that folk would be assured that they are damned, will be untrue.

No one would ever accept that they are damned. Otherwise, they would alter their
belief and behavior to change from that state of damnation to a state of salvation.
Or they would seek a repentance or deeply regret their choice. That goes without saying.

It would be a rare person that knowingly chose self damnation.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,575
785
113
Yes, above all else it is God's love for his people that actually saves us! His love moves him, compels him, causes him to save all those upon whom he has set his affections in eternity.

This morning, I spent some devotional time in Psalm 10. This psalm describes the wicked and their victims. The wicked are portrayed with the third person personal pronoun "he". "He boasts..." (v.3), "He says to himself..." (v.6), "He lies in wait...", etc. The third person possessive pronoun is also used to describe "his arrogance" (v.2), "in all his thoughts..." (v.4), "His ways are always..." (v. 5), "His mouth is full of curses...", etc.

Conversely, the victims of the wicked are portrayed as "the weak" (v.2), "who are caught in the schemes" of the wicked (v.2), as "enemies" of the wicked (v. 5), as being the "innocent" (v.8), as being the "helpless" (v.9) etc.

Then the Lord tuned a light bulb on in my mind. It occurred to me that there could be an even deeper spiritual meaning to this Psalm than I had heretofore ever realized. After all, all the "wicked" of this world are the seed of the Evil One -- the devil! So, ultimately all wicked humans are willingly doing the bidding of their spiritual father! And his will is that all God's people (his enemies) should be oppressed, abused, persecuted, murdered, afflicted, etc.

The "whole world" lies under the power of the evil one (1Jn 5:19), and he is leading the" whole world" astray (Rev 12:9) by blinding the minds of all unbelievers (2Cor 4:4). The "whole world", therefore, is as much under bondage today to Satan as the ancient Hebrews were to the devil's OT type (Pharaoh) in the Exodus. Neither group have "free" will! Neither had the power to extricate themselves from their horrendous situation. The problem in both cases was GOD-sized, not man-sized! Hence, in this New Covenant age God's chosen "firstborn" are also helpless (Rom 5:6) and in dire need of rescuing from the kingdom of darkness (Col 1:13).

Then these two verses in the Psalm struck a huge chord with me:

Ps 10:14-15
14 But you, O God, do see trouble and grief;
you consider it to take it in hand.

The victim commits himself to you;
you are the helper of the fatherless.

15 Break the arm of the wicked and evil man;
call him to account for his wickedness
that would not be found out.

NIV

It's noteworthy, I think, that scripture often talks about the "fatherless" but never to the "motherless". Could the "fatherless" in this passage also have deeper, spiritual meaning? Again, we know from scripture that the devil is the [spiritual] father of all his people (Gen 3:15; Jn 8:44). So, when the text says that God is "the helper of the fatherless", could these "fatherless" be the elect who were predestined in eternity to not have Satan as their spiritual father because, instead, they were predestined to become sons of Abraham by faith upon their new birth?

It's also interesting that the "victim" commits himself to God; and of course he does this by saving faith.

Just some food for thought... Satan plays a much, much larger part in God's redemptive plan of history than I think many in the Church today realize. He's the quintessential super villain in the plot -- a co-star even on the world stage in God's redemptive story that also has a huge sub-plot of Good vs. Evil. And once again, we can see this truth shine through in Natural Revelation since the Number One theme in books, movies and plays is good vs. evil. This is the most recurring theme in storytelling! Good guys, v.s bad guys. Heroes vs. villains, etc. And not only do we see this in the entertainment world, but on the world's political stage as well! On this stage we see the self-proclaimed wise, elite, good guys who know how to save the world vs. know-nothing, willfully ignorant rubes who are the bad guys always impeding the progress of the worldly wise.
The fundamental problem for us all.

Satan appears as an angel of light.

Our war is against principalities, powers and spiritual wickedness in high places.

I pray for myself and everyone else; that we have not been led down the wrong path.

There can be no doubt that the followers of the devil will vastly outnumber the righteous.
 
Jul 3, 2015
57,718
27,215
113
I actually meant just the opposite that they do sin and most Jews believe this direct disobedience cost them eternity with God.
If they had a circumcised heart they would have obeyed.
Perhaps you left something out of your sentence structure, because the way it reads is not what you are now saying it means... Although I do accept your explanation, it still does not make sense as is (with no correction). Or it could just be that I'm having difficulty wrapping my mind around them needing to adhere 100% perfectly to the law.