There will be no Rapture!!!
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I don't believe so. Again.....step 9, 10 & 11 of the Jewish wedding ritual. Thats the point.
And shockingly (not really) the Olivet discourse GROUPS TOGETHER reflexively two eschatological themes.
***Nevertheless*** the intended audience is surely Israel.
Its a brutally tough study. Gonna make your head explode. I can only absorb so much and have to rewind over and over again.
Most of Chronisters lectures are 2 and 3 takes for me. Sometimes 4. Sometimes more.
And shockingly (not really) the Olivet discourse GROUPS TOGETHER reflexively two eschatological themes.
***Nevertheless*** the intended audience is surely Israel.
Its a brutally tough study. Gonna make your head explode. I can only absorb so much and have to rewind over and over again.
Most of Chronisters lectures are 2 and 3 takes for me. Sometimes 4. Sometimes more.
Just a brief comment here (on the bold ^ ).
I am among those who believe that Jesus was born on the Feast of Tabernacles (John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh and TABERNACLED among us")--and was conceived on Hanukkah 1 / Festival of Lights / Feast of Dedication (John 10:22)--but that Tabernacles will also be celebrated / observed ['keep'] in the future MK age (Zech14:16-19--the celebration honoring Him [His "BIRTHday" so to speak]).
Verse 36 I believe is speaking of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19), per context, and not "our Rapture"... and the "GREAT" trumpet will be sounded at that time (per the parallel passages: Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:9,12-13). I see Rev16:15-16's wording "Behold, *I* come AS A THIEF. [period]" being in the CONTEXT (of wording also) pertaining to the "Armageddon" time-slot (Second Coming / Armageddon time-slot, being precisely when "kings go out to battle"... on a very specific day [of the year], per OT info--and THIS is where the "connection" lies... not necessarily on the FoTr however). IOW, "Behold, I come AS A THIEF" at Armageddon, not for "our Rapture" event.
That's as much as I want to share at this point.
[enjoying the exchanged of ideas, as always]
I am among those who believe that Jesus was born on the Feast of Tabernacles (John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh and TABERNACLED among us")--and was conceived on Hanukkah 1 / Festival of Lights / Feast of Dedication (John 10:22)--but that Tabernacles will also be celebrated / observed ['keep'] in the future MK age (Zech14:16-19--the celebration honoring Him [His "BIRTHday" so to speak]).
Verse 36 I believe is speaking of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19), per context, and not "our Rapture"... and the "GREAT" trumpet will be sounded at that time (per the parallel passages: Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:9,12-13). I see Rev16:15-16's wording "Behold, *I* come AS A THIEF. [period]" being in the CONTEXT (of wording also) pertaining to the "Armageddon" time-slot (Second Coming / Armageddon time-slot, being precisely when "kings go out to battle"... on a very specific day [of the year], per OT info--and THIS is where the "connection" lies... not necessarily on the FoTr however). IOW, "Behold, I come AS A THIEF" at Armageddon, not for "our Rapture" event.
That's as much as I want to share at this point.
[enjoying the exchanged of ideas, as always]
Definitely not Feast of Tabernacles.
While I do agree that where Scripture speaks of the marriage (and its related matters), that we should be careful not to interject things about it that are not there.
I used to know of a very good article cautioning about some of the "Jewish traditions" ("rituals" if you want to call them that) that DO NOT align with Scripture (which article made some very excellent points)... and of course we ARE cautioned from Titus 1 (Scripture itself) to [be]: "Not giving heed to Jewish fables, [...], that turn from the truth."
There are SOME aspects of the (commonly-taught) "Jewish wedding model" that DO part from what Scripture itself is saying... one of those (as I see it) is placing "Rapture" in this CONTEXT which isn't Jesus covering the Rapture Subject (but His Second Coming TO THE EARTH and the LIMITED time-period that leads up to THAT, i.e. the TRIB yrs [and a few verses on 70ad]).
Another being that the "10 Virgins" and the associated "LAMPS LIT" whole thing pertains to US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY / the BRIDE and "the MARRIAGE" itself (it doesn't).
I used to know of a very good article cautioning about some of the "Jewish traditions" ("rituals" if you want to call them that) that DO NOT align with Scripture (which article made some very excellent points)... and of course we ARE cautioned from Titus 1 (Scripture itself) to [be]: "Not giving heed to Jewish fables, [...], that turn from the truth."
There are SOME aspects of the (commonly-taught) "Jewish wedding model" that DO part from what Scripture itself is saying... one of those (as I see it) is placing "Rapture" in this CONTEXT which isn't Jesus covering the Rapture Subject (but His Second Coming TO THE EARTH and the LIMITED time-period that leads up to THAT, i.e. the TRIB yrs [and a few verses on 70ad]).
Another being that the "10 Virgins" and the associated "LAMPS LIT" whole thing pertains to US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY / the BRIDE and "the MARRIAGE" itself (it doesn't).
I do not agree that Jesus was saying He did not know as we read the text in Matthew 24:36 . We must read before and after that verse.
Starting at verse 15
Jesus is answering three qestion from the disciples and he is telling them what is going to happen in the future of the fall of the temple and many other events. Prophesying to them.
speaking about the Great Tribulation
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
Jesus is going to tell you what to look for so you know When HE comes
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 “Immediately after after what? after what happens in verse 27and 28
Then
the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, (what sign ?) (read verse 27& 28 ) and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Oops, Gather HIS elect. Do you mean the Rapture? Well, it's not the Red Sea Crossing, I can tell you that.
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. FYI (Jesus knows !!!!)
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. ( Jesus Knows)
43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
The Lord Jesus never said HE did not Know He said son of man which means that of the flesh cannot know but the Spirit of God knows all and Jesus had the Spirit of God without Measure therefore HE knows.
Starting at verse 15
Jesus is answering three qestion from the disciples and he is telling them what is going to happen in the future of the fall of the temple and many other events. Prophesying to them.
speaking about the Great Tribulation
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
Jesus is going to tell you what to look for so you know When HE comes
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 “Immediately after after what? after what happens in verse 27and 28
Then
the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, (what sign ?) (read verse 27& 28 ) and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Oops, Gather HIS elect. Do you mean the Rapture? Well, it's not the Red Sea Crossing, I can tell you that.
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. FYI (Jesus knows !!!!)
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. ( Jesus Knows)
43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
The Lord Jesus never said HE did not Know He said son of man which means that of the flesh cannot know but the Spirit of God knows all and Jesus had the Spirit of God without Measure therefore HE knows.
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No, He's talking about those in the parallel passage of Isaiah 27:9,12-13 (at the "GREAT" trumpet)... which corresponds with both the wording in Rom11:27 and Dan9:24 [parts], which is about ISRAEL (Israel is who've been judicially "SCATTERED" [and gathered from thence]--not the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY),
...and THEY will be "gathered" (the text states) "ONE by ONE" (not "AS ONE" as WE [the "ONE BODY"] will be! [ONE "snatch-action"!]) and they will be gathered by the "angels" that "HE SHALL SEND" to do so (rather than it being "the Lord HIMSELF") and THEY will be gathered to one place upon the earth (the text states) "to worship the Lord in the Holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"). That ain't us.
And it's a completely distinct time-slot from that of "our Rapture". The entire thing is wholly DISTINCT from "our Rapture" in every way!
...and THEY will be "gathered" (the text states) "ONE by ONE" (not "AS ONE" as WE [the "ONE BODY"] will be! [ONE "snatch-action"!]) and they will be gathered by the "angels" that "HE SHALL SEND" to do so (rather than it being "the Lord HIMSELF") and THEY will be gathered to one place upon the earth (the text states) "to worship the Lord in the Holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"). That ain't us.
And it's a completely distinct time-slot from that of "our Rapture".
The entire thing is wholly DISTINCT from "our Rapture" in every way! -
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I've not read/listened to Chronister on this point, but I've read others saying the same point basically (re: "grouping of statements")... and I still disagree that the "peri de" issue [v.36] impacts (i.e. CHANGES) the context (which I believe remains entirely about the Trib yrs and Israel and the Gentiles who come to faith as the "guests" FOR the EARTHLY MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth... [other than a cpl vv. about 70ad... and about 12 vv. ONLY in Lk12 about same])
[Lk12:36,37,38,40 etc "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... that whole passage thru v.48 or something... is PARALLEL PASSAGE to Matt24:42-51 (in His Olivet Discourse), for one example]
[Lk12:36,37,38,40 etc "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... that whole passage thru v.48 or something... is PARALLEL PASSAGE to Matt24:42-51 (in His Olivet Discourse), for one example]
No, He's talking about those in the parallel passage of Isaiah 27:9,12-13 (at the "GREAT" trumpet)... which corresponds with both the wording in Rom11:27 and Dan9:24 [parts], which is about ISRAEL (Israel is who've been judicially "SCATTERED" [and gathered from thence]--not the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY),
...and THEY will be "gathered" (the text states) "ONE by ONE" (not "AS ONE" as WE [the "ONE BODY"] will be!) and by the "angels" that "HE SHALL SEND" to do so (rather than it being "the Lord HIMSELF") and THEY will be gathered to one place upon the earth (the text states) "to worship the Lord in the Holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"). That ain't us.
And it's a completely distinct time-slot from that of "our Rapture".
...and THEY will be "gathered" (the text states) "ONE by ONE" (not "AS ONE" as WE [the "ONE BODY"] will be!) and by the "angels" that "HE SHALL SEND" to do so (rather than it being "the Lord HIMSELF") and THEY will be gathered to one place upon the earth (the text states) "to worship the Lord in the Holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"). That ain't us.
And it's a completely distinct time-slot from that of "our Rapture".
LOL Ok, this is what Peter talked about. It is what Paul talked about. The great Trib is very clearly shown in Daniel and the Book of Revelation. And the Church is also the
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
which is also the Body of Christ.
Chapter 12 also describes the church, known as the body of Christ, of which HE is the head.
in Matthew 24
7 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered (synagō ) together.
context is the same event that was spoken in verses 27-29
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, (what sign ?) (read verse 27& 28 ) and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather (episynagō )together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This event is done in the air and before the Great Tribulation.
^ P.S. I pointed out that Matthew 24:29-31 is PARALLEL to Isaiah 27:9,12-13 (both passages being the only verses mentioning "GREAT trumpet")... and we can see clearly "WHO" is being referenced there [same as in Rom11:27!!!!] (it's NOT talking about the "ONE BODY" here; but who will ENTER the EARTHLY MK AGE--they will be gathered BY ANGELS... [and FOR the PURPOSE OF] "to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM" [that is where THEY will be gathered to--NOT US]).
Verse 12 of Isaiah 27 (parallel Mt24:29-31), in the Greek Septuagint, also uses the word "synagō - G4863" (the word you are pointing out in Matthew 24)
-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/isa/27/12/t_concl_706012
[the USE of THIS WORD does not automatically make it a "Rapture [IN THE AIR]"--Context is important!]
Verse 12 of Isaiah 27 (parallel Mt24:29-31), in the Greek Septuagint, also uses the word "synagō - G4863" (the word you are pointing out in Matthew 24)
-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/isa/27/12/t_concl_706012
[the USE of THIS WORD does not automatically make it a "Rapture [IN THE AIR]"--Context is important!]
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Oh I definitely agree. Verse 36 does NOT change or impact the intended context. And Chronister is VERY CLEAR that verse 36 does not change the intended context. As I said earlier:
***Nevertheless*** the intended audience is surely Israel.
Which is to say the setting is Israel post-rapture and post Rev 6. Do post-rapture believing gentiles "tune in" in some cases? Sure why not. But the intended audience is still Israel.
Of course we all know Luke 21 has the 70AD thing going on, just to be clear.
***Nevertheless*** the intended audience is surely Israel.
Which is to say the setting is Israel post-rapture and post Rev 6. Do post-rapture believing gentiles "tune in" in some cases? Sure why not. But the intended audience is still Israel.
Of course we all know Luke 21 has the 70AD thing going on, just to be clear.
Oh, I wasn't making that point (I definitely understood you meant "Feast of Trumpets" by "FOT" or however you "contracted" it).
I was making an additional point... more along the lines of addressing the matter of how some say "the fall feasts are next on the list to be fulfilled". (I wouldn't put it like this.)
This is why I mentioned the two distinct times "Tabernacles" was and will be pertinent (prophetically-speaking). Catch my drift yet?
I was making an additional point... more along the lines of addressing the matter of how some say "the fall feasts are next on the list to be fulfilled". (I wouldn't put it like this.)
This is why I mentioned the two distinct times "Tabernacles" was and will be pertinent (prophetically-speaking). Catch my drift yet?
On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:22-23
Can you see it now?
grace and patience ....
So let me see if I understand your view... are you saying:
--the "abomination of desolation" (v.15) that they will "see" at a certain point, takes place at the START of the 7 year period?;
--and that, upon their "see[-ing]" this, that those which be in Judea are to "FLEE into the mountains" (v.16) likewise at the START of the 7 year period?
... because v.21 (of that context) says, "FOR *THEN* shall be GREAT tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be"--that is, at the time they "see" the AOD and "flee to the mountains" because of it.
I don't see that as occurring right out off the bat at the START of the 7 year period. The AOD (and that which is associated with it) is / comes at MID-trib (halfway through the 7 years, not at its start).
--the "abomination of desolation" (v.15) that they will "see" at a certain point, takes place at the START of the 7 year period?;
--and that, upon their "see[-ing]" this, that those which be in Judea are to "FLEE into the mountains" (v.16) likewise at the START of the 7 year period?
... because v.21 (of that context) says, "FOR *THEN* shall be GREAT tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be"--that is, at the time they "see" the AOD and "flee to the mountains" because of it.
I don't see that as occurring right out off the bat at the START of the 7 year period. The AOD (and that which is associated with it) is / comes at MID-trib (halfway through the 7 years, not at its start).
I like the word rapture myself, it has seven letters, a significant number in Scripture. It's simple, really. Go to Google Translate and put in "caught up," and in today's Latin, it shows as "raptus." Another significant definition of raptus is "animus exultant" or "soul exulting."
"And my soul shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice (exult) in his salvation." (Psalm 35:9 KJB)
Blessings
"And my soul shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice (exult) in his salvation." (Psalm 35:9 KJB)
Blessings
Let me see if I grasp what you're saying.
There are many places that say "Son of man cometh / is coming / shall come / coming of / etc" (speaking of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH [to judge and to reign]);
--so are you suggesting that the phrase "son of man" *means* "that of the flesh" (instead of referring to Jesus, in these texts which state "Son of man cometh / is coming / shall come / coming of / etc") ??
There are many places that say "Son of man cometh / is coming / shall come / coming of / etc" (speaking of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH [to judge and to reign]);
--so are you suggesting that the phrase "son of man" *means* "that of the flesh" (instead of referring to Jesus, in these texts which state "Son of man cometh / is coming / shall come / coming of / etc") ??