Jehovah’s Witnesses

[Webers.Home]

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It's somewhat futile to clobber the Watchtower Society's missionaries in a
debate because even when they're bested scripture for scripture, they won't
give up on the Governing Body. The average JW's unflinching premise is that
the their top-rung leaders are right even when they appear to be totally
wrong. They are thoroughly convinced that their theologians are the voice of
God, while our voices are regarded as no more valid than that of a squeaky
little gerbil.

NOTE: On June 28, 2024, The US Supreme Court overturned a long held
opinion so-called the Chevron Deference Doctrine, which was basically an
argument from authority, i.e. a logical fallacy which supposes that
someone's position, or their credential, makes their views more important
and/or more likely to be correct than the views of lesser folks.

In a nutshell; just because someone is high up on the "expert" totem pole
does not make them eo ipso right.
_

 

[true_believer]

There are JWs everywhere. Having the knowledge to debate them effectively is also a way to lead them away from this cult.....

 

[NightTwister]

There are JWs everywhere. Having the knowledge to debate them effectively is also a way to lead them away from this cult.....

Carm has some good resources for that:
https://carm.org/world-religions/jehovahs-witnesses/

 

[Webers.Home]

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Unless conventional Christians have undergone specialized training, it's not a
good idea to engage in debate with the Watchtower Society's missionaries as
I can just about guarantee that their experienced workers are better at
debating us than we are them. Should it be decided to go head to head with
Jehovah's Witnesses, here's some useful tips.

01) It's best to use their Bibles. So round up a copy of the Watchtower
Society's New World Translation of the Bible their Kingdom Interlinear
Translation of the Greek Scriptures. Sometimes these are available in thrift
stores like Good Will and Salvation Army. Both are available online from
amazon dot com.

For some useful insights into a variety of Watchtower Society teachings, the
little brown book titled "Reasoning From The Scriptures" is a must-have. It's
available online too. Be sure to get the Watchtower Society's version instead
of another book by the same name published by a different agency.

02) Do not let these people get personal with you. You must never ever
assume they are your friends because first and foremost their primary
interest is in making you a life-long slave to the Watchtower Society. You
can be courteous and you can be civil, but it's highly recommended that you
not let them into your life.

03) Do not accept their literature. They will want to come back later and
discuss it with you; thus taking control of both your thinking and the
meeting.

04) Don't let them get too far into their spiel, but at the first opportunity
begin introducing your own questions; thus denying them control of the
conversation.

05) Do not quarrel. (cf. 2Tim 2:24-26)

06) Avoid trivial issues like birthdays, Easter, Christmas, Christmas trees,
the design and construction of the structure upon which Christ was crucified,
saluting the flag, service in the military, etc. etc. There are much bigger fish
to fry than those.

07) Make them listen and pay attention to what you say even if you have to
repeat yourself to do it, or clap your hands, snap your fingers, or raise your
voice. Do not let them digress, change the subject, go off on a tangent, nor
get distracted and/or turn their attention elsewhere while you're speaking. If
they start digging through their bags, shuffling papers, tinkering with their
tablets, or looking up a reference; call them on it because there is no use in
speaking to them when their minds are elsewhere engaged.

08) Do not permit them to interrupt you and/or talk out of turn. Politely, but
firmly, insist that they hold their peace until you've said your piece.

09) Do not permit them to evade and/or circumvent difficult questions. They
sometimes say that they will have to confer with someone more
knowledgeable. When they do that, the meeting is over. Thank them politely
for their time and then ask them to leave and come back when they have
the information. Do not let them stay and start a new topic.

10) Do not react and/or respond to ad hominems, which can be defined as
logical fallacies in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character,
motive, qualifications and/or other attribute of the person making the
argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking
the substance of the argument itself.

11) These people undergo hour upon hour of training to refute conventional
Christianity, so it's very important to show them the Bible not only in ways
they've already seen, but also in ways they've never imagined.

12) Take advantage of the internet, especially YouTube's collection of
lectures and discussions relative to Watchtower Society beliefs and practices.
_

 

[Magenta]

Carm has some good resources for that:
https://carm.org/world-religions/jehovahs-witnesses/

Are there no more public boards on CARM? I can't find them...

 

[RR]

Okay... That's way to many times, in your posts, referring to our Lord Jesus Christ as "a man", as if that was all He was. Jesus The Christ, was not only the perfect man but more importantly He was the Godman. The eternal son of God. Second Person of the Godhead. Creator and sustainer of all things. The Holy Logos. The high Priest. Lord of lords and King of kings.

Sorry, but I don't believe that is what the Scripture teach. There is NOTHING in scriptures that speak of Jesus being a God-man. The scriptures clearly teach that ...

“there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” - 1 Tim. 2:5-6​

A mediator is one who endeavors to reconcile two opposing parties. Could Christ be God and still mediate between God and men? Ransom here means a “corresponding price.” How could a God-man be the exact equivalent of the perfect man Adam?

And by the way - Jesus Christ did not create "Christianity". Those that were on the outside of the faith, these gave believers this label, not Christ. Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

So what do you call yourself? Do you attend a CHRISTIAN Church? Does it teach CHRISTIANITY?

 

[RR]

If this is the position you're going to hold, then that really does beg the question. Remember your original proposition: That the Trinity has pagan origins.

Does the Trinity have pagan origins or does it not? Arguing for a "gradual" development does nothing to help your case. Where is the pagan origins if it is a later "gradual" development?

The Trinity doctrine is not unique to, nor original with, Christianity. It has deep Pagan roots, dating back to at least two centuries BC, and has been prominent in many Eastern religions ever since.

Both Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church Councils brought the Trinity doctrine into Christianity. This occurred before there was a final split between the two over authority. Even those who voted the idea into Roman Catholic dogma declared it was a mystery that had to be accepted by faith. The theologians that wrote the Catholic Encyclopedia admit that there is no Old Testament indication of a triune God, and very little in the New Testament that can be construed that way. They also admit that it was a product of tradition that evolved over four centuries. The RCC gives equal credence to tradition and scripture. In this case tradition is almost the whole criteria for this dogma, aside from a few scriptures that are wrenched out of context and misinterpreted, trying to give the idea legitimacy.

The evolution of this doctrine within Christianity began with The Apostle’s Creed, progressed to the Nicene Creed, and finally culminated in the Athanasian Creed.

Keep in mind that the roots of Christianity were originally from Judaism, which was, and still is, a monotheistic religion. There is no belief in a polytheistic God in the Old Testament. On the contrary, OT scriptures declare the singleness of God. (Isa. 43:10; 45:18)

The Trinity doctrine was by no means adopted unanimously by church leaders of the day. Bitter battles ensued, and three versions of the trinity debated, as well as the non-trinity belief, until the present one was adopted. It was a vote of men that established it, not revelation from God or scriptures. Christianity had rejected the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, and replaced Him with a Pagan invention.

What connection does the birth of Christ have to pre-Christian pagan origins, if not for the date? Remember: You are the one that originally proposed the idea that Christian doctrine (i.e., Trinity) and holidays (Christmas) have their roots in pagan origins.

The exact date of Jesus’ birth is not mentioned in the Bible, and December 25 is not universally accepted as the actual date of His birth. The choice of December 25 as the date to celebrate Christmas was made by the early Christian church, possibly to coincide with existing pagan festivals like the Roman Saturnalia, which celebrated the winter solstice, the birth of the sun.
The celebration of Easter has a rich history that intertwines both Christian and pagan traditions.

As to Easter? Some elements of Easter, (e.g. Easter bunny and Easter eggs) have origins in pre-Christian, pagan traditions. These symbols are often associated with fertility and rebirth, which were celebrated during the spring equinox. The name “Easter” itself is derived from Eostre (or Ostara), a Germanic goddess of spring and fertility.

It's known that the Church in order to gain converts among the pagans, compromised. "Yes, you can still worship the sun-god on December 25, but his name is Jesus."