Loss of salvation???

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Beckworth

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May 15, 2019
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The race he is talking about is our “life”. The reward is “heaven.” We don’t receive the reward if we quit or turn back or drop out. We must be faithful to the end of our lives to receive the crown. Revelation 3:11–“Hold fast to what you have so that no one may take your crown.” And Rev. 2:10–“Be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life.”

The Christian life is compared to a race. It is compared to a “soldier” engaged in warfare; or an athlete who competes in athletics. He is disqualified if he doesn’t compete ACCORDING TO THE RULES! 2 Tim. 2:4-5. We struggle to overcome our whole lives. Some people get tired and give up; others quit and drop out,

Hebrews 10:36– we have need of ENDURANCE so that after we have done the will of God we can receive the “promise” (of heaven).

Hebrews 12:1– let us lay aside every weight and the sin that so easily ensnares us and let us run with ENDURANCE the race that is set before us ( life) looking into Jesus the author and finisher of our faith”
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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1Thess. 1:3 says, “Remembering your WORK OF FAITH. God is telling you; are you listening? Or, are you listening to Satan?
Right now?
I am listening to a very uptight and frustrated poster.

grace and peace ................
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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What is your point? Jesus was God in the flesh and spoke as a prophet (and a prophet speaks God’s words).
So, I see!
To Chaps?
Isaiah was God.

I am walking carefully around a river of confusion that wishes to make big waves

:giggle:
 

Beckworth

Active member
May 15, 2019
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Yes. If not, then much of scripture needs to be explained away, imo

Hebrews 6:3–8 (ESV): 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10:26–31 (ESV): 26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Galatians 4:8–11 (ESV): Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

Revelation 2:5–7 (ESV): 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

Revelation 2:10–11 (ESV): Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’

Revelation 2:15–17 (ESV): 15 So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth. 17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.’

Revelation 2:25–29 (ESV): Only hold fast what you have until I come. 26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, 27 and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Revelation 3:4–6 (ESV): Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Revelation 3:11–13 (ESV): 1 I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. 12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Revelation 3:15–22 (ESV): 15 “ ‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ ”

It seems clear that there is a real danger is not maintaining faith to the end. The idea of “saving faith” is found nowhere in the Bible. There is faith that endures to the end and faith that fails. Faith that doesn’t endure does not result in salvation.
Paul's gospel is different from jesus's you give the wrong advice.

some people say it is the same but read the fine print it is not!
Where is the scripture that teaches any such thing as this?
 

Bruce_Leiter

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Feb 17, 2023
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Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!
No, Jesus was very clear in John 6, 8, and 10 that we are always saved once we become saved. But I would say this. Only God knows for sure whether or not any person is truly saved, because only he can see our hearts as to whether he has given us the new birth.

Also, when God saves a person, he, our Judge, justifies us, that is, declares us not-guilty of all our sins that we commit our whole lives; Jesus took our guilty verdict when he died on the cross.

However, we continue to sin, which remains within us. Therefore, we need to seek his cleansing from our sins, a lifelong process. That's where confession of them comes in when Jesus talks about forgiveness in the Lord's Prayer.
 

Bruce_Leiter

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Feb 17, 2023
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And here's the question of the day. What does it mean to believe on/have faith in Jesus? Is it believing he existed? All we have to do is believe he died for our sins? Or is there more to our faith in him than believing the things he did?
Do you believe that the whole Bible is God's Word? Can you obey all of it perfectly? If your answers are "yes" and "no," then, you must rely on and trust in Jesus' perfect life, death, and resurrection that involves your emotions, decisions, and thinking, not just your mind.

Such decision-making must lead to actions that honor God and are in line with the Bible, though we all fall short of God's gift of perfection until after we die. In short, being a Christian is a walk with God (the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as the one true God of the Bible), who is revealed there and by Jesus, the God-man.
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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Yes, I’m very familiar with Greek and have studied it extensively both formally and informally.

I still have no idea what your point is. I already told you I agreed that Jesus was divine but humbled himself as a man. I am not, and have not disputed this point. What does this have to do with Jesus’ teaching not being applicable to Christians or Gentiles?
Christians, or Gentiles?

The point was ..

Jesus spoke the words of God to Jews. But, words spoken as being a man speaking them.

The Gospels were Jesus appearing to Jews, approaching them as a Jew would.

The Church age believer? Does not matter if he was gentile or a Jew when saved...
A Christian does not spiritually function as OT believers did.



Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away;
behold, all things have become new."
2 Corinthians 5:17

The Greek translated "new creation" does not mean God makes us to become like new.
It means, something new that never existed before!

In other words?

Peter did not function spiritually as he had functioned while still living as a Jew after the Church age began.
Peter became a new creation at Pentecost, having the Holy Spirit to indwell him - to control his flesh - enabling
Peter to enter into becoming progressively transformed more and more into the image of Christ!

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord,
are being transformed into the same image with ever-increasing glory, which
comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.." 2 Corinthians 3:17-18​


As a Jew? Before Peter became a new creation in Christ? Peter was not able to be transformed like a Christian can be.
That is why God designated Jews to be under the Law. For they could not become transformed, and needed something external to impose and force conformity to what we see as moral and approved behavior.

..............
 

Bruce_Leiter

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Feb 17, 2023
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So, I see!
To Chaps?
Isaiah was God.

I am walking carefully around a river of confusion that wishes to make big waves

:giggle:
None of the prophets, including Isaiah, were God, who guided their writing for your benefit. The reason is that the prophets were mere humans, but Jesus as a Prophet was both God and human in the same body, who came to earth from heaven through Mary's womb in order to live the perfect life that we can't live, die to give believers the Father's verdict of "not-guilty,' and exchange it for our "guilty" verdict, and rise on the third day to give believers the power to make spiritual progress in becoming like God.
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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Yes. If not, then much of scripture needs to be explained away, imo

Hebrews 6:3–8 (ESV): 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
Hebrews? Who was it written to? .. Jewish believers.
What were Jewish believers doing in Jerusalem that caused Hebrews to be written?

Many Jewish believers refused to stop living under the Law.
Instead of dependence upon the blood of Christ for their sins?
They were still performing animal sacrifices in the Temple to atone for their sins.

When they did that?

They were, in effect, crucifying Jesus once again to their own harm while holding work on the Cross up to contempt.

That was the problem.

And, it was just as impossible to bring them back to repentance as it would be to get certain Catholics to stop thinking he is drinking literal blood and eating literal flesh. You can't do it. They will not repent.

So? Hebrews tells us what? To leave them be. And, to go on into growing in grace and truth!

But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you,
yes, things that accompany salvation." Hebrews 6:9​

They did not lose their salvation. They lost their time aloted them to grow in grace and truth as to glorify the Lord!

grace and peace .............
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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None of the prophets, including Isaiah, were God, who guided their writing for your benefit. The reason is that the prophets were mere humans, but Jesus as a Prophet was both God and human
But refusing to function as God! That is the point some here keep stubbing their toes on.

Yes, Jesus was both God and man in union..
But to qualify in our place?
He needed to live perfectly as a man as to qualify to die as a man.
To show he was to live perfectly as a man? He had to deny himself of his powers to function as God.
In that way, he proved himself to be a lamb without spot or blemish that was required for the sin offering.
 

Chaps

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Apr 3, 2024
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Hebrews? Who was it written to? .. Jewish believers.
What were Jewish believers doing in Jerusalem that caused Hebrews to be written?

Many Jewish believers refused to stop living under the Law.
Instead of dependence upon the blood of Christ for their sins?
They were still performing animal sacrifices in the Temple to atone for their sins.

When they did that?

They were, in effect, crucifying Jesus once again to their own harm while holding work on the Cross up to contempt.

That was the problem.

And, it was just as impossible to bring them back to repentance as it would be to get certain Catholics to stop thinking he is drinking literal blood and eating literal flesh. You can't do it. They will not repent.

So? Hebrews tells us what? To leave them be. And, to go on into growing in grace and truth!

But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you,
yes, things that accompany salvation." Hebrews 6:9​

They did not lose their salvation. They lost their time aloted them to grow in grace and truth as to glorify the Lord!

grace and peace .............
Yes, I am familiar with the book of Hebrews and who it was written to as well as the context.

I dont know what this has to do with transubstantiation and Catholicism. I dont subscribe to either, but seems oddly injected into the context of Hebrews.

Anyway, just because something was written to Jewish believers doesnt mean it is not applicable to Gentiles or Christians.
 

Chaps

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Christians, or Gentiles?

As a Jew? Before Peter became a new creation in Christ? Peter was not able to be transformed like a Christian can be.
That is why God designated Jews to be under the Law. For they could not become transformed, and needed something external to impose and force conformity to what we see as moral and approved behavior.

..............
Where did you come up with this? This is not why the Law was imposed. The Law was NEVER intended to bring about moral and approved behavior. Paul is VERY explicit on the purpose of the Law in his writings and how it applied ot the Jews.

But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Ro 7:8–12.
Here Paul reveals that the purpose of the law was to “make sin exceedingly sinful.” The Law didn’t improve behavior. On the contrary, it revealed sin in us and made sin stand out all the more that grace may abound.

But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” Ro 2:17–24.
The Law was never to make Jews superior or to bring about boasting as a result of having the Law. As Paul says clearly, having the Law means nothing if you dont keep it. And NO ONE keeps the Law.

To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.Ga 3:15–20.
Paul makes it clear here that the Law does not bring about inheritance as God‘s promises were directed to Christ, not Israel. Moreover, the Law was added “because of transgressions” and put in place as an intermediary to lead people to Christ.

So, I really think you need to back off of the strong desire you have to nullify chunks of Scripture for Christians or Gentiles because Jesus spoke to Jews or a book was written to Jews. Just because the book of 1 Corinthians was written to a Gentile city of Corinth does not mean that both Jews and Gentiles can learn from it. The principles of Scripture, both Old Testament and New Testament were written for OUR instruction. Scripture is very clear on this. Look, I appreciate your desire to read Scripture in context. However, the idea that because something was written to a Jew or a Greek, does not nullify its universal application. Yes, we need to read scripture in context, but the principles of these lessons belong to ALL and not just one tribal group or another based on their lineage or if they lived before or after the resurrection.
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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Yes, I am familiar with the book of Hebrews and who it was written to as well as the context.

I dont know what this has to do with transubstantiation and Catholicism. I dont subscribe to either, but seems oddly injected into the context of Hebrews.

Anyway, just because something was written to Jewish believers doesnt mean it is not applicable to Gentiles or Christians.
You don't get a lot..... Some are here only to disrupt I suspect.
Especially, when something is being clarified for some for the first time.

Sorry... you might mean anything by what you do.
But, when working within the realm of spiritual warfare, one never can tell.

Have a nice Day.
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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Where did you come up with this? This is not why the Law was imposed. The Law was NEVER intended to bring about moral and approved behavior. Paul is VERY explicit on the purpose of the Law in his writings and how it applied ot the Jews..
Sorry for mentioning the very best thing the Law could do.
For it could not transform a person.
It could only constrain at best.

Of course, the Law was given to make man know he is a sinner.
Should have mentioned that ...
 

JohnRH

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Mar 5, 2018
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Only God knows for sure whether or not any person is truly saved, because only he can see our hearts as to whether he has given us the new birth.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:13 (KJV)
 

Chaps

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Apr 3, 2024
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You don't get a lot..... Some are here only to disrupt I suspect.
Especially, when something is being clarified for some for the first time.

Sorry... you might mean anything by what you do.
But, when working within the realm of spiritual warfare, one never can tell.

Have a nice Day.
Well, I can see this is pointless. You refuse to answer my questions and just keep obfuscating by pointing out topics that I’m not even asking about or have any disagreement with. I’ll just move on so you dont have to deal with this “spiritual warfare” anymore.
 

Chaps

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Apr 3, 2024
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Sorry for mentioning the very best thing the Law could do.
For it could not transform a person.
It could only constrain at best.

Of course, the Law was given to make man know he is a sinner.
Should have mentioned that ...
I dont know why you mentioned it to begin with. I was simply asking what in the NT doesnt apply to Gentiles or Christians. The fourth time ive asked…but you’ll probably respond by giving me the historical context of Ephesians.

As for the Law, I just pointed out what Paul said about why the Law was introduced…which is very different from your claim that it was to provide an external tool to promote moral behavior. The Law does guide to moral behavior, but it wasn’t given that Jews might become moral. I dont know why you are taking such offense at this, or respond by implying that im spiritually attacking you
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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As for the Law, I just pointed out what Paul said about why the Law was introduced…which is very different from your claim that it was to provide an external tool to promote moral behavior.
Long before Paul was ever born. God took immoral Jews coming out of Egypt, and changed their behavior by means of the Law.
Do you not recall how the Jews behaved with the golden calf incident? And, how in the Law God also warned the Jews not to behave as the people who's lands they were about to enter?
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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I dont know why you mentioned it to begin with. I was simply asking what in the NT doesnt apply to Gentiles or Christians.
All things apply. Its how they apply that needs to be addressed.

I was explaining how when Jesus taught in the Gospels he was teaching Jews. Jews who lived not as Christians, but as Jews.
You seemed to have a problem with that.
 

Chaps

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All things apply. Its how they apply that needs to be addressed.

I was explaining how when Jesus taught in the Gospels he was teaching Jews. Jews who lived not as Christians, but as Jews.
You seemed to have a problem with that.
I dont have a problem with it. I just dont know why you think it is so important or that it somehow changes how we should read it. Jesus also spoke to Samaritans and Romans. Paul wrote letters to Gentiles in Corinth. The Gospel of John was written to Christians. It doesnt mean it doesnt have application or the same meaning to Jews. It seems to me the lessons in these letters often have far-reaching application even if they were addressed to a particular group in a particular era. At least that is why I think these letters were preserved in the canon.

I dont think any of us here are under the impression that any of the OT or NT are letters written directly to 21st century Christians. But, as I have mentioned, when considering the historical context, it is important to not only consider who Jesus was speaking to, but also to whom Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were writing to. They chose those stories and ordered them for a reason and a particular audience.

In any event, I’ve never had an issue with the idea that Jesus was a Jew and was often speaking to Jews living under the Law. The implication you gave was that most Christians and Gentiles just dont get it. You indicated that the texts were either not properly understood by Christians or that Jesus’ words were not applicable to them in ways most Christians think they are.

So, I am just asking if you can provide texts that are misunderstood or wrongly applied by Christians because Jesus’ audience was Jewish and not Gentile. Maybe I am just a little calloused by previous interactions with Messianic Jews and so I am a bit skeptical when these topics come up. From my experience, those who want to highlight lineage and genealogy when it comes to interpreting the Bible usually have the perspective that their Jewishness puts them in a special category in which Scriptures apply differently to them because of God’s special relationship with them in contrast to Gentiles or ordinary Christians. So, I apologize if this was not your intent, but it seemed very odd to me when you started claiming that much of Jesus’ teachings didn’t apply to Christians but only to Jews.