The GAP Theory

[DavyP]

(Continued...

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

That "traffick" in the Hebrew means 'merchandise', as the same back in verse 16 with, "multitude of merchandise". How would that be connected with that time when Lucifer first rebelled against God in that old world? Many brethren struggle with this, because they cannot figure out this connection God is making with Lucifer here about that merchandizing traffic. So the easy way out many brethren take so as to not be bothered with what God is revealing there is to just claim God was pointing to one of the old flesh kings of Tyre (Tyrus). But of course a flesh king here goes totally against the parable which God is giving here about Lucifer, only using the flesh title "king of Tyrus" as a symbol for Lucifer here.

Some might ask me, "But Dave, what gives you the right to claim all this is about Lucifer, and not about some flesh king of Tyre?" Simple, God giving descriptions there which can never fit any flesh-born man. A cherub is a Heavenly order created being, not a flesh-born man. Also if you'll notice the above Ezekiel 28:18 verse, that is about Lucifer's future destruction with God bringing a fire from the midst of him, turning him to ashes upon the earth. That means this one God is pointing to is already... judged and sentenced to perish at the future "lake of fire" after Christ's future "thousand years" reign when He returns in our near future (Rev.20). That can never apply to any flesh-born man, simply because no flesh-born is judged and sentenced to perish until God's future Great White Throne Judgment. Not even Judas Iscariot has been judged and sentenced to perish yet. This is why even Lord Jesus was very careful to not claim outright that any flesh-born were already judged and going to perish in the future "lake of fire". He would say one is in danger of going, but He never outright claimed any flesh-born will perish.

Another, and very obvious proof that God is pointing to Lucifer here in Ezekiel 28, is the fact that no flesh-born king of Tyrus has ever been in God's Garden of Eden like verse 13 reveals.

Another way we know God is simply using the "king of Tyrus" title to point to Lucifer here, is that God does this symbolic 'type' for Lucifer in other Bible Scripture examples. He does it again in Ezekiel 31 about the "Assyrian" who was exalted in His Garden of Eden, and we know that cannot apply to any flesh-born king. God also uses that title "the Assyrian" to point to Satan's already appointed destruction (see Isaiah 30-31-33, as that "Tophet ordained of old" is about the future "lake of fire" destruction assigned to Satan).


19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
KJV

Many brethren like to think that above judgment and sentencing to perish could be about any of the wicked that will go into the future "lake of fire". But God's Word shows that ONLY Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish. Even Matthew 25:41 reveals that everlasting fire has been already prepared for the devil and his angels. No flesh-born man has been assigned to perish yet today. That decision won't be made by Christ until after His future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20. This is why God's Word refers to Satan as Apollyon in Revelation 9, which is from a Greek word that means 'perdition'. Satan is that beast that ascends from the bottomless pit at the end of this present world, and goes into perdition (showing he is already judged and sentenced to perish).

What this parable also reveals, is that there was a time prior... to Adam and Eve, when Lucifer served God at His Throne and was perfect in his ways. It shows that Lucifer is not some god of his own with equal power with God, like the old pagan religion Zoroastrianism believes with two equal and opposite forces of good vs. evil. God ended that old world when Lucifer first rebelled, and there was a beast system in that old world which Lucifer rebelled with, which is unknown to many brethren...

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

The above is about the time when Lucifer (that "red dragon") drew one third of the angels ("stars") into rebellion with him in that old world prior to Adam and Eve. In that old world Lucifer had been serving God at His Throne as a covering cherub. Then Lucifer coveted God's Throne and fell drawing a third of the angels into rebellion with him. We know... for certain, that did NOT happen during this present world, nor at the time of Adam and Eve, but prior. And one of the biggest tells above is that beast above of "seven heads and ten horns, and SEVEN crowns upon his heads" is timed when Lucifer first drew those third of angels to earth in rebellion with him. Notice that above beast had ONLY "seven crowns", in contrast to the one below in the next Revelation 13 chapter...


Rev 13:1
13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV

Is that a mistake in Rev.12 then, shouldn't that beast system in Rev.12:3 have "ten crowns" like this one in Rev.13? Not at all. Christ revealed in Revelation 12:3 that Lucifer originally rebelled using a beast world system 'similar' to the one for the end of this world described in Revelation 13.

What exactly did Lord Jesus reveal with that Revelation 13:1 beast rising up out of the sea of waters, what does it symbolically represent? Per Revelation 17:15 it represents a beast kingdom on this earth for the end made up of "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." It represents a mimic of Christ's future world-wide Kingdom to be established upon this earth when He returns in our near future. And it will still involve the idea of nations (see end of Zechariah 14; Revelation 2:26; Revelation 19:5; Revelation 20:8).

The difference with the Revelation 13:1 beast kingdom, having TEN crowns, is it will be Satan's attempt to mimic Christ's future Kingdom at the end of this world, which is exactly... what Satan did when he originally rebelled in coveting God's Throne using a beast system of old that had only SEVEN crowns, shown in Revelation 12:3-4. Like Ripely's again, "believe it, or not."

 

[GaryA]

Ezekiel 28:

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer - after creation week - in the garden of Eden - before he "fell"...

Read it very carefully.

 

[Nehemiah6]

What this parable also reveals, is that there was a time prior... to Adam and Eve, when Lucifer served God at His Throne and was perfect in his ways.

But the Bible does not say that after his rebellion he was handed over the pre-Adamic earth as a king That is what your GAP Theory falsely teachings. There was no pre-Adamic earth.

 

[Omegatime]

Gap Theory is just heresy and those that say so added to the Word of God

 

[Lynx]

To all who think "I'm right and you're wrong" about how old the earth is:

You don't know
You weren't there
The one who was, he ain't telling
So why you talking
Like you know all?
I think it's BULL I'm smelling

When I get home
I'll ask the one
Who was actually there to do it
But until then
We all don't know
So don't tell me you can prove it

 

[tedincarolina]

Hi @DavyP

My biggest question would be 'why'?

I believe that the Scriptures describe for us a being who can do the impossible. I believe that the Scriptures explain to us that this being created a realm for a creature that He called man to exist and live in. So why would he create all the stars in the universe and the courses of the planets to exist trillions/billions of years before He made the Magnum Opus for which He created this realm. That doesn't make sense to me. Especially when He has given us a fairly concise explanation of 'how' and 'when' He did this great miraculous event of creating a realm of existence for man to live.

The Scriptures tell us that the heavens declare the glory of God. So God created the magnificent heavens, which we now have far seeing telescopes that can show us all the awe and marvel of the magnitude of His ability to create. I know for me, I certainly look at the pictures we're getting from the new telescope with total awe and wonder at all that His great mind and hands can fashion out of nothing for a creature that He created it all for, called 'man'.

God's word opens with the testimony that He created the earth. That He merely spoke it to exist. Why would He do that trillions/billions of years before He was going to make man. Is He not powerful enough to have actually merely spoken all of the heavens to just exist at some moment?

The Scriptures tell us that God created the earth and that He spent the next 6 days building it into a system that would support man. He can build houses out of the trees. He can eat food grown from the soil. Now, people argue that days couldn't exist before there was a sun, but that's not true. A day is merely a rotation of the earth upon its axis. It is the length of time that it takes the earth to complete one full rotation and it has been thus since the first of them. God knows that we know what a day is.

So, you're free to teach that the earth has existed for trillions/billions of years, but I don't believe it. I believe that we exist in a realm of God's making. God decided one day to make man and spent the time of six days as they passed on the newly formed earth to build a place for that man to live. Then He actually made the man and set him in a garden of wonder and delight that provided all that the man needed to live and grow and love the Creator that made him. Why would He have all this space junk sitting around for trillions/billions of years before He made the man that the Scriptures seem to point out as the center piece of all of God's creative work?

The Scriptures, this created realm are all for the purpose of God's love for a creature that He made to return that love. The creation was made for man.

God bless,
Ted

 

[DavyP]

Ezekiel 28:

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer - after creation week - in the garden of Eden - before he "fell"...

Read it very carefully.

That Ezekiel 28 pointer to Lucifer was... before he fell, but by the time he is in the role of "that old serpent" with tempting Eve, he had already... fell.

 

[John146]

Why would you even suggest that when the Gap Theory is utterly bogus? It is more than fair to dismiss it, since false doctrines should not be allowed in sound churches. The Bible is crystal clear. There is NO GAP in Genesis.

There was no creation before the actual creation as recorded in the Bible. There is absolutely no evidence that Satan (formerly Lucifer) was given the earth. This is all pure speculation, and if you can show from Scripture that there was an earth BEFORE this earth, then show it from the Bible.

The darkness demands it in Genesis 1:2. God is light and in him is no darkness at all. Where did the darkness come from?

 

[John146]

Ezekiel 28:

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer - after creation week - in the garden of Eden - before he "fell"...

Read it very carefully.

Lucifer was there with man? Man was given dominion when he was created. Lucifer had already fallen.

 

[John146]

Wherever Lucifer was placed, he had a throne. It wasn't enough. Wherever Lucifer was placed, he had to ascend. Wherever Lucifer was placed, it had clouds.

Isaiah 14:
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

 

[John146]

Ezekiel 28:

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer - after creation week - in the garden of Eden - before he "fell"...

Read it very carefully.

Where was Lucifer's throne?

 

[DavyP]

But the Bible does not say that after his rebellion he was handed over the pre-Adamic earth as a king That is what your GAP Theory falsely teachings. There was no pre-Adamic earth.

What I explained from Bible Scripture does not... imply what you are claiming.

The Ezekiel 31 chapter, which God again symbolically uses titles like Pharaoh and the Assyrian for Lucifer before he fell, reveals more about Satan's exalted status in God's Eden before he fell, and "great nations" are pointed to having been under him. Furthermore, the Revelation 12:3-4 Scripture reveals that Lucifer rebelled using an old beast kingdom that had ten horns, seven heads, but only "seven crowns". And per Genesis 2, pointing to when God created Adam, God told Adam then to not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which was a tree representative of Lucifer's fall into sin with wanting to be God.

Gen 2:15-17
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
KJV


Gen 3:4-5
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, "Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
KJV


So there was NO pre-Adamic creation, like you are trying to claim. That's simply a term some came up with that cannot keep their fleshy carnal mind from interfering with these Truths in God's Word, albeit in parable form. God's original Perfect creation at Genesis 1:1, the evidence suggests that it was an 'angelic' existence upon this earth, flesh man not having been created yet.

Job 38:4-7
4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
KJV

God had already created the angels "sons of God" when He first laid the foundations of this earth. That's who were there in that first original Perfect creation, not flesh Adam.

 

[DavyP]

Hi @DavyP

My biggest question would be 'why'?

I believe that the Scriptures describe for us a being who can do the impossible. I believe that the Scriptures explain to us that this being created a realm for a creature that He called man to exist and live in. So why would he create all the stars in the universe and the courses of the planets to exist trillions/billions of years before He made the Magnum Opus for which He created this realm. That doesn't make sense to me. Especially when He has given us a fairly concise explanation of 'how' and 'when' He did this great miraculous event of creating a realm of existence for man to live.

Greetings tedincarolina,

I have declared God's creation from the start of my coverage of those Scriptures. I have never, ever... denied God as The Creator. So I hope you are not suggesting that I have denied that.

What I do deny, are men's traditions that often go counter to God's written Word. There is nothing in the Gap idea that denies God's existence or God as The Creator of all things.

This matter is not one that a new babe in Christ is going to understand without having done some very thorough Bible study. There are many Scripture pieces which God left us that have to pieced together in the mind, and pulled together by The Holy Spirit. Even because there are similar connections of subjects between the Book of Genesis and the Book of Revelation, that idea of this being scattered through His Word in sections, and often in parable form, is further proof of this.

For example, Revelation reveals in final even the concept of death, sin, hell, and Satan, all go into the "lake of fire" in prep for God's future new heavens and a new earth time. And Revelation 21:1 reveals there will be no more sea (i.e., seas and oceans which cover about 70% of today's surface of the earth). Ezekiel 47 about the return of God's River of the Waters of Life back to this earth, which was first revealed in Genesis 2 feeding four other rivers upon this earth, is how waters will flow upon the earth from God's Throne that will be upon the earth. That is only hinted at in Revelation 22, but more detail of it is given in Ezekiel 47. Just how many brethren bother to study that Ezekiel 47 detail about the return of God's River and the Tree of Life back to this earth?

I find that many brethren instead believe in some fairy tale future existence with that future new heavens and a new earth, some even thinking it means with no more earth, living up in the clouds instead. Those who believe such things, which are ideas actually outside of Bible Scripture, is because of who they are listening to, men that push men's doctrines and traditions instead of doing their homework in God's written Word.

And if in the future new heavens and a new earth, there will be no more death, wickedness or sin, and no hell, then how might that time compare to the time BEFORE Lucifer rebelled and was perfect in his ways serving God at His Throne? This is "strong meat" stuff of God's Word, and not 'milk'. Those still on the 'milk' of God's Word will most likely not understand these things yet.

 

[DavyP]

Hi @DavyP
....

So, you're free to teach that the earth has existed for trillions/billions of years, but I don't believe it. I believe that we exist in a realm of God's making. God decided one day to make man and spent the time of six days as they passed on the newly formed earth to build a place for that man to live. Then He actually made the man and set him in a garden of wonder and delight that provided all that the man needed to live and grow and love the Creator that made him. Why would He have all this space junk sitting around for trillions/billions of years before He made the man that the Scriptures seem to point out as the center piece of all of God's creative work?

The Scriptures, this created realm are all for the purpose of God's love for a creature that He made to return that love. The creation was made for man.

God bless,
Ted

Well, I do not teach that this earth is "trillions/billions of years" old. I only said an unknown amount of time. That could have been only 14,000 years ago, I don't know. But I certainly am not... going to be claiming that the fossil record which God left us on this earth doesn't exist. Nor would I ever claim that dinosaurs are still walking around among us on earth today.

So my brethren in Christ need to get off that bandwagon of trying to claim anyone who speaks of the fossil record must be an evolutionist and believes what atheistic pseudo-science claims instead of God's Word.

And I hope you are... aware that there is 'real science' that will always agree with God's Word, and then there is 'pseudo-science' which is of an atheistic agenda from certain men.

 

[DavyP]

The Ezekiel 31 Parable About Lucifer In the Old World

I'm going to go slowly with this, through the whole Ezekiel 31 Chapter, which is heavy with metaphor similar to Ezekiel 28 where God used the title of the flesh "king of Tyrus" as a type for Lucifer before he rebelled in coveting God's Throne.


Ezek 31
31 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 "Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude; Whom art thou like in thy greatness?

God begins this description pointing to the flesh king Pharaoh of Egypt. And He is asking Pharaoh who is he comparable to?

3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.

Then God switches to the subject of "the Assyrian". So what's going on here? Recall per Isaiah 30:31-33 that God used the title of "the Assyrian" to point to how Tophet (symbol for the future "lake of fire") has already been prepared with much wood for "the Assyrian". God is using the title of the flesh king of Assyria as a 'type' to point to Satan. That Isaiah 30:33 verse is directly related to what Lord Jesus said in Matthew 25:41 that everlasting fire has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Then our Heavenly Father begins with using the high cedar of Lebanon metaphor about "the Assyrian", i.e., Lucifer.

That idea of the high cedar of Lebanon is a symbol used in God's Word for exalted status, like a king (see Ezekiel 17; Judges 9 about the "bramble"; Isaiah 10, etc.). God even uses it in other Bible Scripture to point to how at the end of this present world, He is going to lop off its high boughs, pointing to the present day kings of the earth. Thus God is using this high cedar metaphor to point to 'royalty', high status, like a king. Yet here, He is using it not about flesh, but about Lucifer when he was exalted in God's Garden, before Lucifer rebelled.


4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.

What "waters" there is God suggesting with that "deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants"? That likely is about God's River that was once upon this earth and flowed out of His Garden of Eden, per Genesis 2. The above metaphor suggests that "Assyrian" was setup on high, and over all those trees of the field.

5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth.

And because of those "waters", the Assyrian was exalted above all the trees of the field, his symbolic branches made long and his symbolic tree boughs multiplied. These are all symbolic metaphors for the Assyrian having been exalted. So far then, one could easily claim this is really only about the flesh king of Assyria. But wait and read on...

6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.

Is God speaking about the flesh king of Assyria here, or is He actually pointing to Lucifer with that "Assyrian" title, and thus Lucifer's original exalted status before he rebelled?

I mean, why... would God suddenly change here with His use of metaphor like the high cedar and trees, and then say this exalted one had "all great nations" dwelling under his shadow??

This is where it's important to recall Judges 9, about the parable of the "bramble"...

Judg 9:14-15
14 Then said all the trees unto the bramble, "Come thou, and reign over us."

15 And the bramble said unto the trees, "If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon."
KJV

That was said to represent the men of Shechem making Abimelech their king. But it is symbolic of the bramble bush and its shadow of protection. Thing is, a bramble bush does not give much of a shadow. So it's actually a metaphor for a false king, and a false promise. How does that relate to the Ezekiel 31 parable here with the "Assyrian" as a bramble made king over "all great nations"? Keep reading...


Ezek 31:7
7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.

Now God continues with His original metaphor of the exalted cedar made great by those waters (God's River).

8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.

Was a flesh king of Assyria ever... in God's Garden of Eden, this "garden of God" here?? No! of course not. That leaves who then? Lucifer; he was in God's Garden of Eden and exalted, being perfect in his ways when God had exalted him over all the trees of the field. That clearly was before... Lucifer had coveted God's Throne and rebelled against Him and thus fell.

So God isn't really speaking here about a flesh king of Assyria, but instead about Lucifer when he was originally exalted in God's Eden serving God, and over "all great nations"?

How can we be sure God is showing us that Lucifer, when he was originally exalted of old, that he was over "all great nations", that nations actually existed back then before he rebelled? Do recall the Revelation 12:3-4 Scripture about Lucifer as that "red dragon" who drew one third of the stars (angels) to earth with him in his original rebellion? Linked with that time of his drawing a third of those angels was that beast kingdom shown there that had seven heads, ten horns, but only "seven crowns".

(Continued...)

 

[DavyP]

(Continued...)

And further, God brings up the subject of 'nations' again when describing Lucifer's claim that he will sit in God's Throne per Isaiah 14...

Isa 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Just when... did Lucifer first weaken those nations? Well, our Heavenly Father pretty much answered that when He said there, "how art thou cut down to the ground", pointing to Lucifer's fall back in that old world.

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

When did Lucifer claim that above, that he would exalt his throne above the stars of God, and sit upon the mount of the congregation? At his original first rebellion of old when he first coveted God's Throne for himself, that is when he claimed that.

God is only repeated what Lucifer said he would do. What timing do you think his claim that he will "sit also upon the mount of the congregation" will be for? That will be for the end of this world, when he will come as the false-Messiah to Jerusalem, and sit in a new temple there for the end. Lord Jesus warned us about that too, but He didn't tell you it would be Satan himself as false-Messiah trying to steal God's Throne again, on earth. We are supposed to understand through Bible study in other Scripture, like this Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 & 31 Scripture, and also Revelation which points to the one who will ascend out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition. So what is your Church teaching you instead brothers and sisters?

When will Satan be brought down to the sides of the pit? When Jesus returns, and per Rev.20 he is locked in chains in his pit prison for the time of Christ's future "thousand years" reign. Hell today is already his home base, but he is still free to roam this earth today (1 Peter 5:8).

Isa.14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?"
KJV

Once Satan is locked in chains in his pit prison when Jesus returns, we will look over in the pit at him, and say that above. (Notice God shows Satan also has that image of a "man". God created the angels with that image of 'man' also, and it originates from God's Own Image.)

When did Lucifer first "shake kingdoms", and "made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof"? Do you recall what God said in Jeremiah 4 when the earth was "without form, and void", and all the cities were broken down by His fierce anger?

It's easy to think these kind of references to the devil shaking kingdoms, and destroying cities, being of this present world. That simply because if the Bible student doesn't realize that Lucifer originally rebelled using that beast kingdom shown in Revelation 12:3-4 when he first drew those one third of angels to earth with him, then one would easily pass off any idea about nations existing on earth when Lucifer was originally exalted in God's Eden before he rebelled.

And how... do we know that beast of Revelation 12:3-4 was about literal nations forming a world kingdom on earth back when the devil first rebelled against God? Simply because the beast kingdom shown in Revelation 13:1-2 and Revelation 17 is revealed to be made up of all nations and peoples upon the earth at the end of this present world. Should it be any wonder then that Lord Jesus Christ gave us that comparison of the 2 beast kingdoms between those two Revelation 12 and 13 Chapters?

Back to Ezekiel 31...

Ezek.31:9
9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

No doubt now that God is here pointing to Lucifer prior to his rebellion, God having exalted him in Eden. By that we also know at this time God had not yet created Adam in His Garden yet here. By the time God created Adam, Lucifer had already rebelled and was no longer exalted in God's Garden of Eden.

10 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height;
11 I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness.
12 And strangers, the terrible of the nations, have cut him off, and have left him: upon the mountains and in all the valleys his branches are fallen, and his boughs are broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the people of the earth are gone down from his shadow, and have left him.
13 Upon his ruin shall all the fowls of the heaven remain, and all the beasts of the field shall be upon his branches:
14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

Who all is that above about? It is obviously pointing also to the flesh king of Assyria, and Pharaoh. Afterall, God did begin this with asking Pharaoh who was he likened to, with God using Lucifer when he was exalted as a comparison.


15 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.

Notice how God is still using that high cedar of Lebanon metaphor. That means we cannot just apply that to flesh kings only, but also about Lucifer when he fell, since that metaphor is also used about one who was originally exalted by God in His Garden of Eden.

How do those waters of a flood work for that time when Lucifer first rebelled in coveting God's Throne? If you didn't read my coverage of the Gap idea from the beginning in this Thread, then you probably missed that point. Genesis 1:2 is about the earth having become a waste and a ruin, showing waters covering the whole earth, and then with God moving those waters to form today's present condition of the earth. God used a world-wide flood to end Lucifer's original rebellion of old, and that is the time Peter was pointing to in 2 Peter 3 with the "world that then was", which being overflowed by water, perished (not Noah's day).

16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

I can't help you if you refuse to understand that above is about the time of Lucifer's fall. God even gives more proof there that He is pointing to Lucifer with still pointing to "all the trees of Eden", which was part of His original metaphor pointing to Lucifer at the start of this Chapter. So ask yourself, did all the nations shake at the fall of Pharaoh and his band?

17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.
KJV

Ah... so God all along was speaking about Pharaoh and his troop that went down at the Red Sea event when they chased Moses and the children of Israel?

But was Pharaoh ever in God's Garden of Eden like Ezekiel 31 earlier pointed to about the one exalted in God's Garden? No, Pharaoh never was exalted there in God's Garden of Eden, but Lucifer once was.

 

[tedincarolina]

I have declared God's creation from the start of my coverage of those Scriptures. I have never, ever... denied God as The Creator. So I hope you are not suggesting that I have denied that.

What I do deny, are men's traditions that often go counter to God's written Word. There is nothing in the Gap idea that denies God's existence or God as The Creator of all things.

Hey @DavyP

No, I understand that the GAP theory doesn't deny that there is a God. It merely denies that what that God has written to us of the account of His creating this realm in which we live is not correct. Yeah, I get that it still posits that sometime back there in the trillions/billions of years ago... God did create.

The rest of your post #33 deals with other doctrinal issues. Unfortunately, when people start dragging in a bunch of other claims or issues about the Scriptures, they tend to lose sight of the issue that is being discussed. Here we are talking about the creation event. Let's try to keep on point.

And I hope you are... aware that there is 'real science' that will always agree with God's Word, and then there is 'pseudo-science' which is of an atheistic agenda from certain men.

I'm sorry friend, but there is no science that agrees with God's miracles. If there is, would you please point me to the scientific evidence that proves that Jesus was born of a virgin with no human sperm to begin his life in his mother's womb? What science proves that the first-born children of an entire nation died in one night? Please guide me to the science that proves how a shadow cast by the sun went backwards. Or the scientifically proved operation that caused the sun to stand still in the sky over Israel. How about an easy one. What have you read about the scientific explanation for an ax head floating in water?

Oh, and before you respond with, "Well, those examples are not 'on point' to this discussion". I bring them up because you mentioned that there is real science that explains the miracles that God performs.

 

[DavyP]

Hey @DavyP

No, I understand that the GAP theory doesn't deny that there is a God. It merely denies that what that God has written to us of the account of His creating this realm in which we live is not correct. Yeah, I get that it still posits that sometime back there in the trillions/billions of years ago... God did create.

I still strongly disagree with your claims above.

The Gap idea does not claim the earth is millions or billions or trillions of years old. That is pseudo-science that claims that. The Gap idea simply claims an 'unknown amount of time' between God's original creation of Genesis 1:1, and God ending that old world because of Lucifer's rebellion with the earth in a state of corruption beginning at Genesis 1:2. That I have already shown from Bible Scripture, even by what Apostle Paul showed about God having placed His original creation in a state of "vanity" and "bondage of corruption" per Romans 8:18-22.

So I'm not going to get into an argument with you; you are free to believe whatever you want. But I admonish you to stay with the actual Scripture as written, and not simply revert to what men's doctrines claim.

 

[tedincarolina]

But I admonish you to stay with the actual Scripture as written, and not simply revert to what men's doctrines claim.

Hey @DavyP

I do. I don't think there's anything in my understanding that can't be supported by the words that God has caused to be written concerning this issue. Mine even includes all that God has said in the law that in six days He created all that is in both the heavens and the earth. Does yours? How do you see that your explanation fits with that part of God's explanation to us? How does your understanding fit within that six day claim that everything on the earth, in the earth, in the heavens was created in 6 days, which is a fairly clear and direct claim that God has made in His revelation to us.

And please, I 'm not looking for an argument. I just want to know how your understanding fits with all the things that God has told us about the creation event. If you can show me how it fits, I'll be happy to look your explanation over. I'd really like to see your explanation of how science has proven a single miracle that God's word tells us that He has done.

So, if you're up to it and have answers for those questions, I'd like to read them.

 

[Clayman]

(Continued...

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

That "traffick" in the Hebrew means 'merchandise', as the same back in verse 16 with, "multitude of merchandise". How would that be connected with that time when Lucifer first rebelled against God in that old world? Many brethren struggle with this, because they cannot figure out this connection God is making with Lucifer here about that merchandizing traffic. So the easy way out many brethren take so as to not be bothered with what God is revealing there is to just claim God was pointing to one of the old flesh kings of Tyre (Tyrus). But of course a flesh king here goes totally against the parable which God is giving here about Lucifer, only using the flesh title "king of Tyrus" as a symbol for Lucifer here.

I just presumed that Satan was enjoying himself with all the worldly wealth, he would go and indwell the kings or rulers of the earth, and make lots of money have influence and prestige masquerading as the king of Tyre, and he was very good at it, he's had a lot of years to watch men and practice.

Some might ask me, "But Dave, what gives you the right to claim all this is about Lucifer, and not about some flesh king of Tyre?" Simple, God giving descriptions there which can never fit any flesh-born man. A cherub is a Heavenly order created being, not a flesh-born man. Also if you'll notice the above Ezekiel 28:18 verse, that is about Lucifer's future destruction with God bringing a fire from the midst of him, turning him to ashes upon the earth. That means this one God is pointing to is already... judged and sentenced to perish at the future "lake of fire" after Christ's future "thousand years" reign when He returns in our near future (Rev.20). That can never apply to any flesh-born man, simply because no flesh-born is judged and sentenced to perish until God's future Great White Throne Judgment. Not even Judas Iscariot has been judged and sentenced to perish yet. This is why even Lord Jesus was very careful to not claim outright that any flesh-born were already judged and going to perish in the future "lake of fire". He would say one is in danger of going, but He never outright claimed any flesh-born will perish.

God keeps sending prophets to deliver His word not just the king of earth but also Satan, God was warning Satan, seems similar to how God speaks to man through His Word, repent...

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

The above is about the time when Lucifer (that "red dragon") drew one third of the angels ("stars") into rebellion with him in that old world prior to Adam and Eve. In that old world Lucifer had been serving God at His Throne as a covering cherub. Then Lucifer coveted God's Throne and fell drawing a third of the angels into rebellion with him. We know... for certain, that did NOT happen during this present world, nor at the time of Adam and Eve, but prior. And one of the biggest tells above is that beast above of "seven heads and ten horns, and SEVEN crowns upon his heads" is timed when Lucifer first drew those third of angels to earth in rebellion with him. Notice that above beast had ONLY "seven crowns", in contrast to the one below in the next Revelation 13 chapter...

Im not sure why you read so many of these verses in the bible as if its happening in a parallel multiverse or a pre world existence.
Why not read them as if they are part of our creation?

Rev 12 does indeed show Satans fall with the one third of angels, yet it also shows us when it happens, it happens after the first wonder that appeared in heaven, that is a woman is seen and she is now in child, most people view this as Israel and being with child is the Lord himself, remember Elizabeth's baby leapt for joy in her womb when she heard Mary, And Said blessed is the fruit of your womb.

So our God left His throne laid aside His glory and made Himself lower than the angels by becoming a Man. And all the angels including Satan have seen this.

Then another wonder appears in heaven a dragon ascends above the clouds, ascends to the now vacated throne and causes a bit of a scuffle. The cedar spreads it branches up the heavens, the blasphemous horn reaches up above the stars etc

Yet a third of the stars follow Satan and are thrown down to earth, and the dragon now stands before the woman to devour the child(that means to kill Christ) and means that fallen angels have left their abode and now demons are tormenting people.

This could not have happened in another creation, the Lord would not come to earth twice etcetera

Rev 13:1
13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV

Is that a mistake in Rev.12 then, shouldn't that beast system in Rev.12:3 have "ten crowns" like this one in Rev.13? Not at all. Christ revealed in Revelation 12:3 that Lucifer originally rebelled using a beast world system 'similar' to the one for the end of this world described in Revelation 13.

What exactly did Lord Jesus reveal with that Revelation 13:1 beast rising up out of the sea of waters, what does it symbolically represent? Per Revelation 17:15 it represents a beast kingdom on this earth for the end made up of "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." It represents a mimic of Christ's future world-wide Kingdom to be established upon this earth when He returns in our near future. And it will still involve the idea of nations (see end of Zechariah 14; Revelation 2:26; Revelation 19:5; Revelation 20:8).

The difference with the Revelation 13:1 beast kingdom, having TEN crowns, is it will be Satan's attempt to mimic Christ's future Kingdom at the end of this world, which is exactly... what Satan did when he originally rebelled in coveting God's Throne using a beast system of old that had only SEVEN crowns, shown in Revelation 12:3-4. Like Ripely's again, "believe it, or not."

There have been 6 world empires that have ruled the known world, when God sent prophets to them we can see they had duel meanings for the human king and for Satan, Satan was the ruler of this world, I know you can see the Pharaoh as that leviathan in the Nile, the Assyrian as that Cedar tree etc Yet why not give these attributes to this creation, to our creation story?

In revelation we can see a seventh king the Antichrist will rule the known world and be the seventh head of the dragon.

Here is the mind which has wisdom the seven heads are seven mountains(kingdoms)
five have fallen one is (Rome the sixth at the time John wrote Revelation) and the other has not yet come, And when he comes he must continue a short time.

The beast that was and is not is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven. Rev 17:10

So we have the seven human kingdoms, who were invariably indwelt by Satan at one stage or another, the future Antichrist the seventh head will also be indwelt by Satan at the mid point of tribulation.

The beast that you saw was, and is not, will ascend out of the bottomless pit.
And those on the earth not written in the lambs book will marvel at the beast that was, is not, and yet is

In other words Satan has been ruling the earth in a codependent manner with the men ruling the earth, and is there forth the eighth
unseen head.

We can see this is going to play out in the future, so logically the descriptions you talk about involve the descriptions of this creation account. It really does not make sense to tie it into a gap theory to me.

Satan was obviously created as a priest as you pointed out the stones on his breast, although I believe he had nine stones, ( I disagree with ten) so was created to fulfill a mediatory role between God and man, Lucifer means morning star and Jesus is the bright morning star.

Yet he is only a created being, God could click His fingers and make Satan vanish anytime He wanted, so to me he might oppose God but everything still happens according to Gods will.

And why do people try and make a reason that Satan fell or sinned before Adam? Is it so it lines up with some erroneous human thinking?

People continually point out that Satan lied, yet as if it does not hold enough water they need something more elaborate so have a precreation where he must have sinned? Do people lament that Adam sinned and brought sin death and decay into the creation? yet is it not according to Gods foreknowledge or plan?

What was Satan's lie again I keep forgetting, for example if I say to you if you respond to this post you will not die? Does this mean I'm lying as you are a sinner and will one day die?