Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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it is the ones that the Father gives that come.
not the ones that come whom the Father gives.
there is a profound truth of origination here: origination is with The Originator.
not with man.
people who think they save themselves don't seem to be able to read passages like this, even though they point to them. as though there is a veil.
not the ones that come whom the Father gives.
there is a profound truth of origination here: origination is with The Originator.
not with man.
people who think they save themselves don't seem to be able to read passages like this, even though they point to them. as though there is a veil.
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Do you know of someone who thinks they can save themselves? I've met them, and they are the ones who think that their works will suffice. Others think that no man can, of his own volition cry out to the Lord for salvation in faith, or that they can't possess faith unless it is given to them. All of that are concoctions mf mere men, not what is found in scripture.
MM
MM
When one gets baptized with the Holy Spirit, they receive a portal through which the Father and Son enter into the being of that person so that the person becomes the temple of the Father and Son. Once in us, they fill us with love and change our motivation for living, which is from love of self to love for God first, and all others as we love self. Once you are in that state of being (full of love), there is no way that anyone would want to leave that blissful state of being.
1 Corinthians 4:7b; John 3:27; Romans 9:15-16 What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did also receive it, why do you boast as not having received it? John replied, "A man can receive only that which is given him from heaven." "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
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The Holy Spirit is our security that we have eternal life because the Father and Son in us direct our mind, heart, and soul in order to do their will. That is how we become One with the Father and Son. Through the Holy Spirit, we follow One will. The Son follows the will of the Father, and we follow the will of the Son.
Uh oh. This will trip up the "You can lose your salvation," people, none of whom have yet answered my question as to who among them has ever lost their salvation. Some are so very sure that one can lose his salvation, and yet not one of them has explained how one can become UNborn again and how one becomes UNsealed by Holy Spirit, all in an ability to lose what no power in any human can break.
Oh, they have all kinds of verses ripped from their contexts, at which they point, but never one peep that speaks of any experiential proximity to a phenomenon such as losing one's salvation. That tends to render that claim as being nothing more than the nonsense that it is.
Now, in all fairness, what some have done is point at statements made in the past to those who were under the Kingdom Gospel, and who COULD nullify a salvation that they did not yet possess because, for them, salvation was only a future potential IF, and ONLY if they persevered unto the end of their lives on this earth.
Some out there might say that's not fair that the ancients did not have their salvation sealed for them apart from personal endurance, but we have ours right now on the basis of faith. Well, that fairness descriptor is an argument from silence because salvation is not ours in the sense that we should ever complain about salvation as a gift to us, and think that it's something we should compare to other peoples in other ages. It's all about Christ Jesus and how He has sovereignly chosen to deal with His own creation. So, gauging fairness on this basis of purely subjective grounds of mere humanity and our feelings about things, that is a meaningless exercise that bears no fruit of intellectual coherence to reality. Some things we simply cannot change. Read the Serenity Prayer, and then one may become more at peace with how things are that simply are beyond our control.
MM
Oh, they have all kinds of verses ripped from their contexts, at which they point, but never one peep that speaks of any experiential proximity to a phenomenon such as losing one's salvation. That tends to render that claim as being nothing more than the nonsense that it is.
Now, in all fairness, what some have done is point at statements made in the past to those who were under the Kingdom Gospel, and who COULD nullify a salvation that they did not yet possess because, for them, salvation was only a future potential IF, and ONLY if they persevered unto the end of their lives on this earth.
Some out there might say that's not fair that the ancients did not have their salvation sealed for them apart from personal endurance, but we have ours right now on the basis of faith. Well, that fairness descriptor is an argument from silence because salvation is not ours in the sense that we should ever complain about salvation as a gift to us, and think that it's something we should compare to other peoples in other ages. It's all about Christ Jesus and how He has sovereignly chosen to deal with His own creation. So, gauging fairness on this basis of purely subjective grounds of mere humanity and our feelings about things, that is a meaningless exercise that bears no fruit of intellectual coherence to reality. Some things we simply cannot change. Read the Serenity Prayer, and then one may become more at peace with how things are that simply are beyond our control.
MM
Where do you get the idea that the Gentile church's destiny is off-planet, but the Jewish destiny is on-planet. The saints return to earth with Christ.
Rev. 19:14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
The saints reign with him for 1000 years over the nations with a rod of iron.
Rev. 20:4¶And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
All saints take part in the first resurrection. All saints therefore reing with Him for 1000 years, and He is reigningbon earth.
Jewish saints might have the centre of their communal reign in what is geographically delineated in Ezekiel as an enlarged Israel. But there is still the rest of the planet to manage, which Gentile saints could be doing, on earth. Russian saints ruling Russia? NZ saints ruling New Zealand, etc.? Where does scripture say gentile saints stay off-planet. The national distinctives can continue with all saints reigning on earth with Christ.
Jesus told the twelve apostles they would sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Who is judging the Gentiles on the rest of the planet during the 1000 year reign? I expect it will be Gentile saints.
Even after the 1000 years, in the new heaven and earth, Gentile saints are living on-planet.
Rev. 21. 14¶And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev. 21:23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Who are these nations of the that are saved, these kings of the earth, if not gentile saints on earth? Reigning over the Gentile nations on earth?
Rev. 20:27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev. 19:14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
The saints reign with him for 1000 years over the nations with a rod of iron.
Rev. 20:4¶And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
All saints take part in the first resurrection. All saints therefore reing with Him for 1000 years, and He is reigningbon earth.
Jewish saints might have the centre of their communal reign in what is geographically delineated in Ezekiel as an enlarged Israel. But there is still the rest of the planet to manage, which Gentile saints could be doing, on earth. Russian saints ruling Russia? NZ saints ruling New Zealand, etc.? Where does scripture say gentile saints stay off-planet. The national distinctives can continue with all saints reigning on earth with Christ.
Jesus told the twelve apostles they would sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Who is judging the Gentiles on the rest of the planet during the 1000 year reign? I expect it will be Gentile saints.
Even after the 1000 years, in the new heaven and earth, Gentile saints are living on-planet.
Rev. 21. 14¶And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev. 21:23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Who are these nations of the that are saved, these kings of the earth, if not gentile saints on earth? Reigning over the Gentile nations on earth?
Rev. 20:27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
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@Beckworth
gathering the fragments proves the deity of Christ, hence His Messiahship.
can you see how?
it's not because there was a lot of food.
Jesus calls His own disciples idiots because they didn't get it either.
this is no mere insignificant detail.
it's scripture.
i would kindly suggest that when you study scripture, you do not look for how it says you won't lose your salvation because you try very much harder than others, but they will lose theirs.
i would suggest you look for Christ, the testimony of Who He is and what He has done.
i think you're going to get a lot more of real value from it when you don't think it's about you.
John 6:12-14
So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, "Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost." Therefore they gathered [them] up, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves which were left over by those who had eaten. Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, "This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world."
gathering the fragments proves the deity of Christ, hence His Messiahship.
can you see how?
it's not because there was a lot of food.
Mark 8:18-21
Having eyes, do you not see? And having ears, do you not hear? And do you not remember? When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments did you take up?"
They said to Him, "Twelve."
"Also, when I broke the seven for the four thousand, how many large baskets full of fragments did you take up?"
And they said, "Seven."
So He said to them,
"How [is it] you do not understand!?"
Jesus calls His own disciples idiots because they didn't get it either.
this is no mere insignificant detail.
it's scripture.
i would kindly suggest that when you study scripture, you do not look for how it says you won't lose your salvation because you try very much harder than others, but they will lose theirs.
i would suggest you look for Christ, the testimony of Who He is and what He has done.
i think you're going to get a lot more of real value from it when you don't think it's about you.
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Good question. Paul said this as an insightful revelation:
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Some have tried to force the language of this verse in its context as allegedly only saying that God is the eternal one in the Heavens, yadda, yadda, yadda. The warped interpretations are plentiful out there.
Now, when you speak of the saints coming back with Christ to the old earth at His second coming, that's not what I was talking about. I made specific mention of the NEW Heavens and NEW Earth, not the old one Christ returns to at His second coming to this old earth.
Hope that clarifies what I said.
MM
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Some have tried to force the language of this verse in its context as allegedly only saying that God is the eternal one in the Heavens, yadda, yadda, yadda. The warped interpretations are plentiful out there.
Now, when you speak of the saints coming back with Christ to the old earth at His second coming, that's not what I was talking about. I made specific mention of the NEW Heavens and NEW Earth, not the old one Christ returns to at His second coming to this old earth.
Hope that clarifies what I said.
MM
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I wrote in my previous post -
"Even after the 1000 years, in the new heaven and earth, Gentile saints are living on-planet.
Rev. 21. 14¶And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev. 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Who are these nations of the that are saved, these kings of the earth, if not gentile saints on earth? Reigning over the Gentile nations on earth?
Rev. 20:27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."
Matt. 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles (ethnesin, dative plural neuter plural of ethnE).
Rev. 21:24 And the nations (ethnE, nominative plural of ethnos) of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
It seems clear that the Gentile saints are on the same new earth as the Jewish saints.
"Even after the 1000 years, in the new heaven and earth, Gentile saints are living on-planet.
Rev. 21. 14¶And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev. 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Who are these nations of the that are saved, these kings of the earth, if not gentile saints on earth? Reigning over the Gentile nations on earth?
Rev. 20:27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."
Matt. 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles (ethnesin, dative plural neuter plural of ethnE).
Rev. 21:24 And the nations (ethnE, nominative plural of ethnos) of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
It seems clear that the Gentile saints are on the same new earth as the Jewish saints.
Is this the eternal world mentioned in John 3:16 that God "so loved"? And the eternal world mentioned in 3:17 that "through him, might be saved"?
[Jhn 3:16-17 KJV]
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
And the kingdom "not of this world" spoken of by Christ in John 18:36?
[Jhn 18:36 KJV] 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
[Jhn 3:16-17 KJV]
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
And the kingdom "not of this world" spoken of by Christ in John 18:36?
[Jhn 18:36 KJV] 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.