The book of Job, my favorite book.

[christophernyc]

Thank you for all of your responses. I find them quite strong and insightful and better than anyone I've heard discuss Job from your perspective.

 

[christophernyc]

I do not disagree with the other Scripture references you provided, nor would I want to. Still, I did not see any response to the question: if you're accusing Job of self-righteousness, why does God call him blameless (twice)? How does that comport?

The same way Paul declared himself blameless while he was killing Christians. Phl 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. Paul did it in ignorance.[/QUOTE]

I see what you mean, but Paul was blatantly committing the sin of murder. So are you saying that Job was guilty of being self-righteous and that was doing it in ignorance like Paul?

 

[Cameron143]

The same way Paul declared himself blameless while he was killing Christians. Phl 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. Paul did it in ignorance.

I see what you mean, but Paul was blatantly committing the sin of murder. So are you saying that Job was guilty of being self-righteous and that was doing it in ignorance like Paul?[/QUOTE]
You've done a good job with your arguments concerning righteousness. Job wasn't attempting to suggest that his personal righteousness by the law was true, but that the righteousness he possessed of God was real. Where Job erred was in respect to God's sovereignty. Convinced of his innocence in regard to his present circumstances, Job forgot that he belonged to God, who is not answerable to anyone.

 

[christophernyc]

In the big picture I agree with you, but it appears you are simply pouring theological gravy over this story. Yes, Jesus is ultimately our righteousness, but you must know that before Christ Jesus became a man on earth and died on the Cross that sacrifices were required for sin. They do not replace Jesus' ultimate sacrifice on the Cross, but they were a way to point to Jesus' ultimate sacrifice.

But to the point of the story of Job, we know Job offered sacrifices regularly. This was his practice. Then at the end God requires a sacrifice from Job's three friends for their sin. To gloss over the glaring absence of a required sacrifice for Job's "sin" (as you believe) comes across as cheating and is inconsistent with the context of this story.

It is also not apparent that Job is speaking of his own righteousness. Remember, God explicitly states that Job fears God and Job shuns evil. If Job was self-righteous, as you imply, why would God call him blameless? Wouldn't that be sinful? It seems like you are contradicting what God said about Job.

Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Job did not have a broken spirit or a contrite heart. He was striving with his maker, and in Isaiah 45 it says woe to him.
Isa 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Isa 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. Job said, I will maintain my own ways before him.
Job 13:15b---; but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

Everybody said it was Job's righteous.

The three friends, Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.
Elihu, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?
God, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Clearly, they are all referring to Job's righteousness and not God's.

Clearly Job's sacrifice for his own sons did not work.
Eze 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I love those verses in Psalm 51. Remember, too, that was after David sinned with Bathsheba. Also, the last phrase in Isaiah 66:2 was that their soul delighted in their abominations. Again, flagrant sin. You really believe that Job was guilty of these kinds of deeds, too?

Also, to address Elihu, where does Job say his righteousness is more than God's? Yes, Elihu accuses Job of this, but where did Job say that? Do you have a reference?

 

[christophernyc]

I see what you mean, but Paul was blatantly committing the sin of murder. So are you saying that Job was guilty of being self-righteous and that was doing it in ignorance like Paul?

You've done a good job with your arguments concerning righteousness. Job wasn't attempting to suggest that his personal righteousness by the law was true, but that the righteousness he possessed of God was real. Where Job erred was in respect to God's sovereignty. Convinced of his innocence in regard to his present circumstances, Job forgot that he belonged to God, who is not answerable to anyone.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. Question: why do you say that Job forgot he belonged to God? What I find is Job consistently turning to God and praying to God because he knew he did belong to God. How do you conclude he forgot this? He felt disconnected from God. Absolutely. But his posture was to seek and restore his relationship with God.

 

[tttallison]

I have to ask: why can't you accept the premise that when this story begins, there is no particular sin in Job's life? Why do you have the need to accuse him of something like pride and self-righteousness? This insistence is akin to how Job's three friends view him, too. Did you notice that? Why can't it be that Job is simply innocent here as God says?

Paul is called blameless while killing Christians, and yet if he had not met Christ on the road to Damascus would he have been saved?

Job 29:17 And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth. Kind of what Paul did to Christians.
Job 29:7 When I went out to the gate through the city, when I prepared my seat in the street!
Job 29:8 The young men saw me, and hid themselves: and the aged arose, and stood up.
Job 29:9 The princes refrained talking, and laid their hand on their mouth.
Job 29:10 The nobles held their peace, and their tongue cleaved to the roof of their mouth.
Job 29:11 When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me:
Is it starting to sound like a little pride has step in?
Job 29:18 Then I said, I shall die in my nest, and I shall multiply my days as the sand.
Job 29:20 My glory was fresh in me, and my bow was renewed in my hand.
Job 29:21 Unto me men gave ear, and waited, and kept silence at my counsel.
Job 29:22 After my words they spake not again; and my speech dropped upon them.
Job 29:23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the latter rain.
Job 29:24 If I laughed on them, they believed it not; and the light of my countenance they cast not down.

Job 29:25I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth the mourners.
Proverbs 30:21-22 For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear: For a servant when he reigneth; and a fool when he is filled with meat;

Referring back to verses 29:22-23 Compare them to the words of Moses in Deuteronomy chapter 32

Job 29:22 After my words they spake not again; and my speech dropped upon them.
Job 29:23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the latter rain.

Deu 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Now the next verse in Deuteronomy 32

Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

The difference is that Moses ascribed his words to the greatness of God, while Job was ascribing his words to the greatness of Job.

 

[Cameron143]

You've done a good job with your arguments concerning righteousness. Job wasn't attempting to suggest that his personal righteousness by the law was true, but that the righteousness he possessed of God was real. Where Job erred was in respect to God's sovereignty. Convinced of his innocence in regard to his present circumstances, Job forgot that he belonged to God, who is not answerable to anyone.

Interesting. Question: why do you say that Job forgot he belonged to God? What I find is Job consistently turning to God and praying to God because he knew he did belong to God. How do you conclude he forgot this? He felt disconnected from God. Absolutely. But his posture was to seek and restore his relationship with God.[/QUOTE]
Forgot is probably a poor choice of words. He was certainly desirous that God should come and vindicate him before his acquaintances. One perfected in the righteousness of God would have made their appeal on the basis of God's glory. In other words, Job would have been more concerned with God being dishonored for not defending the righteous than his own troubles.

 

[christophernyc]

Paul is called blameless while killing Christians, and yet if he had not met Christ on the road to Damascus would he have been saved?

Job 29:17 And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth. Kind of what Paul did to Christians.
Job 29:7 When I went out to the gate through the city, when I prepared my seat in the street!
Job 29:8 The young men saw me, and hid themselves: and the aged arose, and stood up.
Job 29:9 The princes refrained talking, and laid their hand on their mouth.
Job 29:10 The nobles held their peace, and their tongue cleaved to the roof of their mouth.
Job 29:11 When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me:
Is it starting to sound like a little pride has step in?
Job 29:18 Then I said, I shall die in my nest, and I shall multiply my days as the sand.
Job 29:20 My glory was fresh in me, and my bow was renewed in my hand.
Job 29:21 Unto me men gave ear, and waited, and kept silence at my counsel.
Job 29:22 After my words they spake not again; and my speech dropped upon them.
Job 29:23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the latter rain.
Job 29:24 If I laughed on them, they believed it not; and the light of my countenance they cast not down.

Job 29:25I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth the mourners.
Proverbs 30:21-22 For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear: For a servant when he reigneth; and a fool when he is filled with meat;

Referring back to verses 29:22-23 Compare them to the words of Moses in Deuteronomy chapter 32

Job 29:22 After my words they spake not again; and my speech dropped upon them.
Job 29:23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the latter rain.

Deu 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Now the next verse in Deuteronomy 32

Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

The difference is that Moses ascribed his words to the greatness of God, while Job was ascribing his words to the greatness of Job.

When Job says he broke the jaws of the wicked, I read that as him offering help to others in need. He was offering justice to the oppressed.

I understand your adamancy about Job and his pride and his self-righteousness. I do not believe Job would have announced these things about his life under normal circumstances. Yes, that would be prideful. What Job is trying to do is figure out where he has gone wrong. He is combing through all the details of how he was living and trying to understand what is happening.

And, yes, Job does praise God during his sufferings. I would argue he offers the highest praise and the greatest insight of anyone else in this story about God. Hands down. Chapter 9 is one example.

Also in chapter 9, Job makes it clear that God is greater than him - and not the other way around. Job 9:15, "Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge." This verse and the others in chapter 9 show Job's understanding that God is clearly greater than him.

Sure, Elihu makes the claim that Job says he is more righteous than God. My question here again is: where does Job say that? As shown above, there is evidence to the contrary.

 

[tttallison]

Thank you for all of your responses. I find them quite strong and insightful and better than anyone I've heard discuss Job from your perspective.

Thank you. A long time ago I asked God for two things. One was for wisdom and the other was to keep me poor. He did not let me down in the latter.

 

[christophernyc]

Speaking of pride in this story, I think it is remiss not to look at Elihu. I am always amazed whenever the pride of Elihu is ignored. In fact, he is often praised for his speeches, and yet he is the most bombastic, prideful, arrogant one of the bunch, in my opinion. So the criticism belonging to Elihu gets attributed to Job and the praise that Job deserves gets attributed to Elihu. Totally backwards.

In Job 36:4 Elihu says, "For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee." He is clearly talking about himself. Then in Job 37:16 Elihu says, "Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?" Here he is clearly referring to God. Do you notice how Elihu equates himself with God? He claims he has perfect knowledge like God. Now I know that some believe Elihu to be a type of Christ (more about that later) but let's look at what Paul says about Christ Jesus in Philippians 2:6: "Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped." Elihu is not like Jesus.

Additionally, I probably wrote this before, but where is there any concrete confirmation for Elihu? Has anyone ever noticed that Elihu is the only one who affirms Elihu? Job attests to himself - but God Himself also attests to Job. Confirmation. But nowhere do we see any explicit affirmation for Elihu except from Elihu's own mouth. There is confirmation for Job. There is no confirmation for Elihu.

 

[tttallison]

When Job says he broke the jaws of the wicked, I read that as him offering help to others in need. He was offering justice to the oppressed.

I understand your adamancy about Job and his pride and his self-righteousness. I do not believe Job would have announced these things about his life under normal circumstances. Yes, that would be prideful. What Job is trying to do is figure out where he has gone wrong. He is combing through all the details of how he was living and trying to understand what is happening.

And, yes, Job does praise God during his sufferings. I would argue he offers the highest praise and the greatest insight of anyone else in this story about God. Hands down. Chapter 9 is one example.

Also in chapter 9, Job makes it clear that God is greater than him - and not the other way around. Job 9:15, "Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge." This verse and the others in chapter 9 show Job's understanding that God is clearly greater than him.

Sure, Elihu makes the claim that Job says he is more righteous than God. My question here again is: where does Job say that? As shown above, there is evidence to the contrary.

Job said he broke the jaws of the wicked. Job was the judge that decided who was wicked. Do you really want a judge who is without knowledge deciding who lives, and who dies? Paul was making a judgment call on Christians, but he lacked knowledge, and the Christians died.

Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If a man today asked you that question, would you believe that he was saved?

Job 9:15 Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge. Since this judge is not God, obviously, to whom is Job referring?

Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause. Job has just said God harms people for no good reason. If God multiplies wounds without cause, is he just?

Job 9:22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked. Again I take this as Job saying God is not just.

Job 8:20 Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:

Psalm 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.

Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent. Again, Job makes another charge against God. If Job believed all this about God, he certainly didn't want God to judge him.

Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?
Did Job really say God covers the faces of the judges? Did Job just ask who is God?

From the previous verses one could assume that Job is declaring God unjust. If God is not just he must therefore be lacking in righteousness, according to the words of Job. Job has declared his own righteousness. Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

You said, "My question here again is: where does Job say that?"

At the end of chapter 9 we hear Job requesting a man such as Elihu. Elihu declared he was that man. If Elihu is truly speaking in God's place, then we have no reason to doubt what he says.

 

[tttallison]

Speaking of pride in this story, I think it is remiss not to look at Elihu. I am always amazed whenever the pride of Elihu is ignored. In fact, he is often praised for his speeches, and yet he is the most bombastic, prideful, arrogant one of the bunch, in my opinion. So the criticism belonging to Elihu gets attributed to Job and the praise that Job deserves gets attributed to Elihu. Totally backwards.

In Job 36:4 Elihu says, "For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee." He is clearly talking about himself. Then in Job 37:16 Elihu says, "Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?" Here he is clearly referring to God. Do you notice how Elihu equates himself with God? He claims he has perfect knowledge like God. Now I know that some believe Elihu to be a type of Christ (more about that later) but let's look at what Paul says about Christ Jesus in Philippians 2:6: "Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped." Elihu is not like Jesus.

Additionally, I probably wrote this before, but where is there any concrete confirmation for Elihu? Has anyone ever noticed that Elihu is the only one who affirms Elihu? Job attests to himself - but God Himself also attests to Job. Confirmation. But nowhere do we see any explicit affirmation for Elihu except from Elihu's own mouth. There is confirmation for Job. There is no confirmation for Elihu.

Elihu is either a liar, or he is speaking truth. If he is a liar, you have to explain why God gave him six chapters in this book.

Let me understand this. Job has declared God unjust, and yet he is the Hero. Elihu has only praised God, and he is dog food.

 

[Brasspen]

Job was religous, in that he was a bit over religous, superstitious kind of. He was paranoid a bit, always worried about God's judgement, which is why he was always making sacrafices for he's family. It's seen in the first part of the book before the devil shows up.

 

[christophernyc]

Elihu is either a liar, or he is speaking truth. If he is a liar, you have to explain why God gave him six chapters in this book.

Let me understand this. Job has declared God unjust, and yet he is the Hero. Elihu has only praised God, and he is dog food.

Elihu speaking long should not be an indicator of his truthfulness either way. I think what is more important is the content of his words and his motivation. What does he say? Why does he say it?

Do you remember when the devil quoted Scripture to Jesus in the desert? What the devil said was "true" but why was he saying it? What was his motive?

There is a lot to unpack with Elihu. In fact, I think understanding him and his role is the single biggest key to unlocking the entire story. At least it was for me.

Here is just one verse I would welcome commentary on. In Job 34:4 Elihu says, "Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good." Does this sound right to you? Know among themselves what is good? This sounds like Judges 21:25 where it says everyone did what was right in their own eyes, does it not?

Job uses his own reasoning to try and figure out what is happening - but Job also repeatedly turns to God, seeking Him and praying to Him.

And actually, what Job declared about God is true. God did allow Job to suffer unjustly. That is the premise for the entire story. And, again, in the end God says Job has spoken rightly about Him (God).

You can even find this in chapter 42:11 where it says, "Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him..."

 

[Cameron143]

Elihu speaking long should not be an indicator of his truthfulness either way. I think what is more important is the content of his words and his motivation. What does he say? Why does he say it?

Do you remember when the devil quoted Scripture to Jesus in the desert? What the devil said was "true" but why was he saying it? What was his motive?

There is a lot to unpack with Elihu. In fact, I think understanding him and his role is the single biggest key to unlocking the entire story. At least it was for me.

Here is just one verse I would welcome commentary on. In Job 34:4 Elihu says, "Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good." Does this sound right to you? Know among themselves what is good? This sounds like Judges 21:25 where it says everyone did what was right in their own eyes, does it not?

Job uses his own reasoning to try and figure out what is happening - but Job also repeatedly turns to God, seeking Him and praying to Him.

And actually, what Job declared about God is true. God did allow Job to suffer unjustly. That is the premise for the entire story. And, again, in the end God says Job has spoken rightly about Him (God).

You can even find this in chapter 42:11 where it says, "Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him..."

If Job suffered unjustly, doesn't that make God unjust?

 

[christophernyc]

If Job suffered unjustly, doesn't that make God unjust?

Was it just or unjust of God to let His innocent Son Jesus Christ suffer unjustly at the hands of sinners and die?

 

[Cameron143]

Was it just or unjust of God to let His innocent Son Jesus Christ suffer unjustly at the hands of sinners and die?

Just.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Here is just one verse I would welcome commentary on. In Job 34:4 Elihu says, "Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good." Does this sound right to you? Know among themselves what is good? This sounds like Judges 21:25 where it says everyone did what was right in their own eyes, does it not?

Elihu is saying that they should choose what is right- IOW "make the right decision" using discernment and that they should "know among themselves what is good" IOW the knowledge of what is good should be among them. He's not saying they should willy-nilly do whatever they want, and call it good.

 

[SomeDisciple]

And actually, what Job declared about God is true. God did allow Job to suffer unjustly.

It depends on what you mean.

In the beginning of the narrative we see Job is blameless; and that is a good place to be; but it's not the same as having God's righteousness. We all fall short of God's righteousness and are fully dependent on his mercy. We all deserve to be destroyed, like a cheating wife deserves to be beaten to death with stones- and Job is no exception to that. Mercy is conditional upon the proper responses; yet nobody was actually entitled to, or deserving of mercy because they meet the conditions. Any suffering we endure is less than we deserve- and the same is true for Job.

Does that mean that his suffering was actually connected to a specific sin he had done previously? Probably not. In a earthly court of law it would seem unjust; because we (usually tend to) like orderly punishments that are directly proportional to our perception of the offense... but our perceptions are fallible. God's perceptions are not.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Thank you. A long time ago I asked God for two things. One was for wisdom and the other was to keep me poor. He did not let me down in the latter.

Maybe I should have asked for the same thing. I'd be more thankful then; but I hoped for less adversity.

. God had already presented Job with some scary nightmares, but that hadn’t worked.

Job 7:14 Then You scare me with dreams And terrify me with visions,

I think Job is actually replying to Eliphaz here- specifically the visions of Eliphaz in Ch. 4 v. 12-21... unless you mean he presented them to Job through Eliphaz... but having a dream and hearing about someone else's dream are a little different.