The Gospels and the Mystery

[Musicmaster]

When Christ approached Abraham at the tree of Mamre, he recognized Him and therefore immediately greeted Him.

your claim that Abraham did not know Christ Jesus - He is the LORD - is absolute Biblical illiteracy. the very first mention of bread and wine in the scripture is when Abraham and Jesus took communion together.

the scripture speaks for itself.
you have not proven what you say you have proven. you have proven instead something else, which you wished to keep hidden.

Since this is an entirely different discussion, I will leave it for another thread. I will say, however, that the idea that Abraham understood the full spectrum of accomplishment of the Lord standing before him under that tree, that's speculation at best, and is therefore moot as an important doctrine for us today.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Very interesting. What are your thoughts of the Kingdom that Jesus spoke about that the dynamics of that teaching was not fully clear until His Resurrection from the Dead? As we see in the Gospels, the Disciples were expecting Jesus to rule, not die.

Very true indeed. They even asked when that Kingdom would be realized on this earth, at which point Jesus told them that it is not given that they understand the times or the seasons for that Kingdom. Something we can glean from the wording in relation to the Second Coming of Christ was that they were looking to that as an eminent event since they were told that ALL that Jesus had spoken would be fulfilled within the lifespan of some standing in that place where He spoke those words, but because of Israel's continued rejection of Him after His ascension, it was put on hold, with those things not being fulfilled in that generation.

Granted, there are those who spiritualize everything in order to force it into the boxes of their thinking, making it mean what they want it to mean. This is the danger of them trying to say that they also compare spiritual with spiritual, which leans at times in the direction of subjectivism.

Good point, CS1.

MM

 

[rogerg]

Actually Peter commanded water baptism in the very next verse: "And he (Peter) commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord..." Acts 10:48 Peter's command was in connection with what he expressed specifically in verse 43.

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Acts 10:43 This aligns with the message preached at Pentecost. Those who believed in Jesus were told their sins would be remitted upon obedience to the command to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus. (Acts 2:36-38)

Where do you find water baptism mentioned in those verses? Water baptism is a symbol of repentance (but doesn't cause repentance). Repentance cannot not be produced by man of himself because his heart is wicked, but only as a gift given by God to those whom He had chosen for such (see Acts 2:39 & 2Titus 2:25 below), which repentance, must change the heart. The baptism itself Peter was speaking of was in the name of Christ for the remission of sin, not repentance.

So, you're saying you don't believe that Jesus Christ is Savior in all respects including the forgiveness of sin, but instead, that it is only achieved by man through his own choice of water baptism? Where then does Christ as Savior fall into this if it is by man's actions and choices and not Christ?

[Act 19:3-5 KJV]
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

[Act 2:38 - 39 KJV]
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.[
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

[1Co 6:11 KJV]
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[2Ti 2:25 KJV]
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

 

[vassal]

Paul’s gospel given to him by Christ Jesus was/is the message of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ Jesus:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Please observe the glaring difference in the content of Paul’s gospel compared to the content of the Kingdom Gospel.

Where is repentance? Where is baptism?

They are not there.

According to the Kingdom Gospel, salvation was granted to the believer after he or she repented, was water baptized, believing Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God (Matthew 16:16-17; John 11:25-27; Acts 2:38), and THEN receive the filling of Holy Spirit.

Under the Gospel of Grace (Acts 20:24), which was Paul’s gospel, all we have to do is believe Christ died for us, was buried and arose from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Do you see that? It's so plain that in Paul’s gospel, only one thing is necessary, which is to have faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus for your sins. No "sinner's prayer" or some other ritual, but only to believe in your heart.

You don't have to immerse yourself into the works of sacraments, religious practices, crawl around a city on your bloody knees, flog yourself, work in Calcutta to bath and feed the poor (although doing good is always a natural outflow from genuine faith), or anything else that the accursed tell you that you must do for salvation.

MM

yes you said it, a difference between the gospels, Jesus and Paul do not teach the same Gospel, you choose to follow paul's I follow. the master ( JESUS) not the student, there is only One truth, Both cannot be right.

 

[Sipsey]

I'm not sure how familiar you are with Jewish history of sentiment, but we historically have looked forward to the Kingdom, with the Lord ruling with Israel at the pinnacle of the world governance and center of religious vigor, and we have envisioned the Lord's coming as His being a powerful, religious figure, which is the thinking to this day.

So, when non-Jews claim what we have always looked forward to and what we look back upon, that is only true for the Messianic Jews, not Jews in general, most of whom are unbelievers in this modern world.

MM

The Jewish history is long and rich. Maybe I should have phrased it differently. Genesis revealed that a Savior would be involved at some point in history. Even Jesus said that those looking through the OT looking for salvation, missed the mark, for the Scriptures revealed Him.

The Jews were so wrapped up in their man-made laws and with each other that they had even lost sight of the real laws of God that were given through Moses, who wrote the first five books of the Old Testament: “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” (John 5:46-47)

 

[Sipsey]

yes you said it, a difference between the gospels, Jesus and Paul do not teach the same Gospel, you choose to follow paul's I follow. the master ( JESUS) not the student, there is only One truth, Both cannot be right.

Peter disagrees with you.

Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[Musicmaster]

Hi MM,

I've read your post and most if it doesn't make sense in light of your basic argument. The reason being you use a strawman argument. You state some say works righteousness or add works to grace and then you argue Paul taught basically faith alone (justification). As if that is the issue which it isn't.

The reason yiur argument lacks teeth is the dimple fact that christians (protestants) believe sola fide. So your point is mute.

Unless of course you maybe believe Jesus's message was works salvation? And pauls was sola fide etc. Maybe you could clarify at some stage?

It would still be nice to hear your respnse to my original post #125.

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Galatians 1:6-9, 11-12
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. ...
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul was well aware of the preaching of Jesus and of His disciples. It is that Gospel that motivated him to persecute and kill those who were followers of that preaching. We see here, then, that Paul obviously received something different than what was being preached by the eleven because he clearly states that what he preached he had received from no man, but only from Christ Himself. Those who followed the preaching of the eleven were also zealous of the Law of Moses:

Acts 21:20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

So, yes, the elements of works in the Kingdom Gospel, versus the singular element of faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross and in His resurrection, the differences become clear, which validate the words that Paul spoke to the Galatians as recorded above. Reiterating: Paul preached NOT what men had revealed to him, for he already knew what they believed. He preached the mystery that had not been revealed until then because of it being hidden in God. The exclusivity in what was revealed to Paul that was known to no man until then, the idea of it being the same as the Kingdom Gospel, THAT is what is moot as an argument in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism
Not Paul onlyism, not me, onlyism, not you onlyism, not anyone onlyism,

It was never my intent to convey the idea that Paul alone preached the Gospel of Grace. The eleven were aware of the change that had taken place in the Lord's salvation of mankind in the face of Israel's utter failure to remain salt and light to the world for salvation. What I have consistently said is that it was revealed to him first what was hidden in God from the creation of the world, and we are told why it was hidden in God. Peter, for a short stint, preached to Gentiles, but Paul was indeed the the one through whom the Lord worked through to get that Gospel of Grace out to the Gentiles, which spread faster than a wild fire, fueled by persecutions.

MM

 

[Wansvic]

Where do you find water baptism mentioned in those verses? Water baptism is a symbol of repentance (but doesn't cause repentance). Repentance cannot not be produced by man of himself because his heart is wicked, but only as a gift given by God to those whom He had chosen for such (see Acts 2:39 & 2Titus 2:25 below), which repentance, must change the heart. The baptism itself Peter was speaking of was in the name of Christ for the remission of sin, not repentance.

So, you're saying you don't believe that Jesus Christ is Savior in all respects including the forgiveness of sin, but instead, that it is only achieved by man through his own choice of water baptism? Where then does Christ as Savior fall into this if it is by man's actions and choices and not Christ?

[Act 19:3-5 KJV]
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

[Act 2:38 - 39 KJV]
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.[
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

[1Co 6:11 KJV]
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[2Ti 2:25 KJV]
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Clearly man must choose whether to repent. It was after believing in Jesus that Peter gave the command to
Repent AND be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin.

When read in their entirety all detailed conversion accounts record distinct experiences. One being the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost and the other water baptism in the name of Jesus. (Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

 

[John146]

yes you said it, a difference between the gospels, Jesus and Paul do not teach the same Gospel, you choose to follow paul's I follow. the master ( JESUS) not the student, there is only One truth, Both cannot be right.

Canyou post the scripture of the gospel Jesus preached that you believe in?

 

[Cameron143]

We can see it now after the fact.🤦‍♂️

How would Job come to the point where he knew his Redeemer lived and he had no understanding of what it meant?

 

[Cameron143]

For four thousand years of human history, people looked forward to Jesus dying on a cross for sins, but when he showed up, not one person, even his disciples had any understanding of the cross until afterwards. 🤦‍♂️

Simeon knew.

 

[Wansvic]

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Galatians 1:6-9, 11-12
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. ...
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul was well aware of the preaching of Jesus and of His disciples. It is that Gospel that motivated him to persecute and kill those who were followers of that preaching. We see here, then, that Paul obviously received something different than what was being preached by the eleven because he clearly states that what he preached he had received from no man, but only from Christ Himself. Those who followed the preaching of the eleven were also zealous of the Law of Moses:

Acts 21:20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

So, yes, the elements of works in the Kingdom Gospel, versus the singular element of faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross and in His resurrection, the differences become clear, which validate the words that Paul spoke to the Galatians as recorded above. Reiterating: Paul preached NOT what men had revealed to him, for he already knew what they believed. He preached the mystery that had not been revealed until then because of it being hidden in God. The exclusivity in what was revealed to Paul that was known to no man until then, the idea of it being the same as the Kingdom Gospel, THAT is what is moot as an argument in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

MM

Paul was addressing the misconception that the OT mandate of circumcision was still required. Paul thoroughly explains this in Galatians chapter two.

Also relevant is Paul's mention of his preaching the faith that he once persecuted as noted in Gal. 1:22-23. "And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed."

 

[rogerg]

Clearly man must choose whether to repent. It was after believing in Jesus that Peter gave the command to
Repent AND be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin.

When read in their entirety all detailed conversion accounts record distinct experiences. One being the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost and the other water baptism in the name of Jesus. (Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

Man is spiritually dead in sin and as dead, unable to truly repent. As the scripture says, true repentance must be given by God.
Filled with the Holy Spirit is different than being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Being filled, only occurred during the
timeframe of the formation of the gospel for temporary unique situations where the Holy Spirit would
act through them to cause miracles as conformation that it was God who was behind it all, but which is no longer available to us today.
I agree that believing came first, but true faith and believing comes as gifts and fruit of salvation but does not cause salvation: salvation brings belief; belief doesn't bring salvation.
From their salvation, they chose to be baptized which was after the fact in order to commemorate what had already spiritually transpired. But I will give you this, that during the formation of the Bible, the Apostles were granted certain powers that later true believers do not have, so what was possible then, should not be used as a model to assess the operation of God today.
Look, to be honest, I'm really not interested in engaging in a prolonged discussion regarding baptism which could last days
and end-up changing neither of our minds. If you choose to believe that man can affect their own salvation making themselves co-savior with Christ, rather than it being entirely and solely by Christ, then that's your decision to make.

 

[John146]

Simeon knew.

He rebuked Jesus when he mentioned dying.

 

[John146]

How would Job come to the point where he knew his Redeemer lived and he had no understanding of what it meant?

Zacharias, filled with the Spirit spoke of the redemption, a physical deliverance from their enemies, in order for the Jews to serve God without fear all the days of their life.

Luke 1:
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

 

[Cameron143]

He rebuked Jesus when he mentioned dying.

Not Simon...Simeon.

 

[Cameron143]

Zacharias, filled with the Spirit spoke of the redemption, a physical deliverance from their enemies, in order for the Jews to serve God without fear all the days of their life.

Luke 1:
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

So you can't answer concerning Job?

 

[Wansvic]

Man is spiritually dead in sin and as dead, unable to truly repent. As the scripture says, true repentance must be given by God.
Filled with the Holy Spirit is different than being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Being filled, only occurred during the
timeframe of the formation of the gospel for temporary unique situations where the Holy Spirit would
act through them to cause miracles as conformation that it was God who was behind it all, but which is no longer available to us today.
I agree that believing came first, but true faith and believing comes as gifts and fruit of salvation but does not cause salvation: salvation brings belief; belief doesn't bring salvation.
From their salvation, they chose to be baptized which was after the fact in order to commemorate what had already spiritually transpired. But I will give you this, that during the formation of the Bible, the Apostles were granted certain powers that later true believers do not have, so what was possible then, should not be used as a model to assess the operation of God today.
Look, to be honest, I'm really not interested in engaging in a prolonged discussion regarding baptism which could last days
and end-up changing neither of our minds. If you choose to believe that man can affect their own salvation making themselves co-savior with Christ, rather than it being entirely and solely by Christ, then that's your decision to make.

It's illogical to believe Jesus would expect people to do something they are incapable of doing; "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye (YOU) repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3, 5)

The idea that spiritual gifts ceased with the death of the apostles is an odd idea. Especially since all born again believers have the Holy Ghost dwelling within. And, spiritual gifts flow from the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost to assist in ministering Jesus to the lost.

 

[Musicmaster]

Paul was addressing the misconception that the OT mandate of circumcision was still required. Paul thoroughly explains this in Galatians chapter two.

Also relevant is Paul's mention of his preaching the faith that he once persecuted as noted in Gal. 1:22-23. "And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed."

Yes, the faith in Christ as Messiah. That does not nullify what I discussed in relation to what Paul said about his gospel message that he preached. I already stated previously that Christ is the common element of all gospels, all dispensations, stated in order to save time and space talking about the obvious fact along that line.

MM