Settling the Elect and Predestination Question

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cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#41
Throughout those two posts (OP), I see nowhere covered the following word (in bold):

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath G138 from the beginning chosen G138 you to salvation through [en] sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
- 2 Thessalonians 2:13
(a verse written to the same people that in verses 2,3a of this SAME CONTEXT Paul exhorted them not to be "deceived [subjunctive]" by a false claim floating around--why would Paul exhort about such a thing if it were "not possible"... and I'm not suggesting they would "lose their salvation"... I'm just pointing out that, if this statement in the OP [quoted at top] is a blanket statement, Paul would have had NO reason to say in v.3a, "Let no man deceive you in any way" TO THESE VERY PEOPLE that he is also saying were "chosen" by God).







Strong's "G138 - haireō / heilato " -

-- HELPS Word-studies
138 hairéomai (a primitive verb, always in the Greek middle voice) – properly, lay hold of by a personal choice.

[The Greek middle voice emphasizes the self-interest of the one preferring (deciding) to grasp or take.]


-- †αἱρέομαι hairéomai, hahee-reh'-om-ahee; probably akin to G142 [ airo ]; to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer:—choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate ἕλλομαι héllomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.









[G138 - "hath chosen"--a whole 'nuther category...]
A little OT, but since you are here, I thought that I would chime in.

We both agree that the "hidden" MYSTERY of the Rapture will occur rather stealthily.
The Wife of YHVH will be first to notice.

Chronister (rightly IMO) opines that there will be some kind of "covering" event that "masks" the spectacle of the rapture.
Something like a shut down of digital comms etc because of an earth magnetic field event, solar flare, EMP or whatever.

You have to figure, if only say 1 out of 100 get raptured, it would be relatively easy to mask this way.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,945
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#42
So salvation is put completely on our shoulders huh? That doesn't sound like a great gift, or very good news to be honest. If it's up to me then I guess I'm going to burn. That sucks.
The bottom line is that you must endure.

Your endurance is that reliance on Jesus Christ through all the phases of life.

Salvation is always a gift and that never changes.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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#43
I agree we can go through many trials and tribulations, and will still be saved by Lord Jesus, but because of what? Because of 'our'... keeping The Faith.
You need to learn to ask questions, and not present what you say as dogmatic truth instead.

Believe what you want, if that's how you wish to approach it.
 

glf

Active member
Mar 18, 2023
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#44
There's been a long-standing debate over the question of Christ's elect and the idea of Apostle Paul's predestination idea, and what Lord Jesus said about some being chosen, while others are called.

In the following example, Jesus shows about His "very elect" (Greek kai elektos).

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that,
if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV


Lord Jesus in the above is warning about the coming of a fake-Christ. And He shows that IF... it were possible, that false-Christ working those "great signs and wonders" would be so deceptive... that it would deceive even His very elect. He is actually pointing to the idea that it is impossible for His "very elect" to be deceived in that.

Many brethren when reading that think that "very elect" idea is about all... believers on Jesus Christ. It is not, for Jesus said many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16). And that idea of being a chosen one applies to apostleship, like His leaders He appointed over us in Christ.

How is this difference between those called to believe vs. a chosen very elect shown in God's Word?

Jonah of The Old Testament is a prime example. God told Jonah to go preach to the city of Nineveh, but Jonah tried to get out of that duty. Jonah fled on a ship, and God brought up a storm at sea with those aboard fearing for their life. So Jonah simply jumped overboard trying to end his life to get out of his duty, and save those aboard. God caused a great fish to swallow Jonah, and that fish then spit Jonah upon the shore at... right at the city of Nineveh. Jonah then fulfilled his duty God gave him, and God saved the people of Nineveh. Jonah sat on a hill overlooking the city, under a tree, and fell asleep. God caused the leaves of that tree to grow out and give Jonah shade. Then in the morning when the sun came out, God withered that tree back to let the sun bead down on Jonah, because Jonah was angry. (And this shows our Heavenly Father does at times have a sense of humor.)

My point, is that Jonah was obviously a 'chosen one', very elect, and those in that position are not going to get out of their duty God has given them. The reason is, He already owns them.

Apostle Paul is another prime example as a 'chosen' one. Paul (then called Saul before being converted to Christ), was a Pharisee working for them to hunt down Christians and bring them bound to Jerusalem for trial by the Jews. Saul was even on the road to Damascus for that very purpose when Jesus spoke to him and caused Saul to be blind (Acts 9). Jesus directly intervened with Saul, removing all of Saul's doubt about Christ's existence. And Jesus said about Saul that he was His "chosen vessel" to take The Gospel to the Gentiles, and to kings, and to the children of Israel.

Can we all... claim the above examples in our own lives when we first believed on Jesus Christ? I don't think so. Most of us are 'called' only, and not 'chosen' like Jonah or Apostle Paul. And per what Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 24:24 about His "very elect", that shows those 'chosen' cannot be deceived. That's what that "if it were possible" phrase in that verse means. It is not possible that His "very elect" (chosen) can be deceived, particularly by that coming false-Messiah which Jesus was warning about there for the end of this world. So this idea of a 'chosen' "very elect" also applies still today for some brethren in Christ, so it is not only for the time of Christ's Apostles.

The mistake many brethren have made is with that we are all 'chosen', when most of us are 'called' only. That thinking is where many got the belief that all who have believed cannot be deceived. That's not true for those 'called', for most of us must be tested in the Faith, and not become apostates. This Truth is given especially by The New Testament warnings to the Church to remain faithful waiting on our Lord Jesus to come, and to not fall away. Those warnings would never have been given (especially by Apostle Paul), if it were not possible for all believers to be deceived.

Acts 20:27-31
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.
29
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
KJV


See also 1 Timothy 1:19-20; 2 Timothy 2:17-18; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 1 Timothy 6:5; 2 Peter 2:18-22. Those Scriptures apply only to those who once believed on Jesus, but then fall away. It does not apply to those who are 'chosen' ones, who can never fall away from Christ.

Jesus covered this difference between those who are chosen vs. those who are called only, in His prayer of John 17 just before being delivered up to be crucified. I'll cover that next, so the post may be pretty long...

(Continued...)

James tells us by the Spirit in Jas 1: 13-15:
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Paul tells us in 1 Cor 10:13:
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Peter tells in in 2 Pet 2: 19-21:
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#45
I am assuming after three pages nothing has ben settled?
 

DavyP

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#46
That is what the ignorant always say. And they are always wrong.
Then you are calling Lord Jesus 'ignorant', because in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is where Jesus showed His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation. So it looks like you need to read and heed what Jesus said instead of heeding a bunch of men who don't keep God's Word.
 

DavyP

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Aug 11, 2024
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#47
You need to learn to ask questions, and not present what you say as dogmatic truth instead.

Believe what you want, if that's how you wish to approach it.
No one is twisting your arm for you to believe a teaching that's actually from evidence in God's written Word.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#48
Then you are calling Lord Jesus 'ignorant', because in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is where Jesus showed His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation. So it looks like you need to read and heed what Jesus said instead of heeding a bunch of men who don't keep God's Word.
Actually what's important is that I do not heed YOU.
 

DavyP

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#49
Actually what's important is that I do not heed YOU.
I don't care if you heed 'me', or not. But you are not going to just spout lies with calling what I say as "ignorant" when I quoted directly from what Lord Jesus Christ said. And yes, you were... calling me "ignorant" by what you said in your post #40.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#50
I don't care if you heed 'me', or not. But you are not going to just spout lies with calling what I say as "ignorant" when I quoted directly from what Lord Jesus Christ said. And yes, you were... calling me "ignorant" by what you said in your post #40.
It's not a lie it's true. Go check out the rapture threads. Pre-trib rapture wins hands-down 100% of the time. It's not even close. It's not even a fair fight.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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#51
I don't care if you heed 'me', or not. But you are not going to just spout lies with calling what I say as "ignorant" when I quoted directly from what Lord Jesus Christ said. And yes, you were... calling me "ignorant" by what you said in your post #40.
Here!

I will quote directly something that Jess Christ said.
Now, make sure you do what He said!

If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away.
For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your
whole body be thrown into hell.



.
 

DavyP

Active member
Aug 11, 2024
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#52
It's not a lie it's true. Go check out the rapture threads. Pre-trib rapture wins hands-down 100% of the time. It's not even close. It's not even a fair fight.
I don't need... to check out any such Pre-trib rapture threads, I have God's written Word as evidence, which I quoted as proof, not your pop fantasy from men's doctrines.
 

DavyP

Active member
Aug 11, 2024
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#53
Here!

I will quote directly something that Jess Christ said.
Now, make sure you do what He said!

If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away.
For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your
whole body be thrown into hell.



.
Irrelevant, since I simply quoted what Jesus Himself said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His coming will be... AFTER... the tribulation!

Some here obviously ARE OFFENDED by what my Lord Jesus Christ said there in those Bible Scriptures! Those who are offended by what He said there do not belong to Him.
 

awelight

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Aug 10, 2020
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#54
The general context of the New Testament regarding God's choice is not so much
about individual election. It seems to be more about a general election of the
Gentiles and and the failure of Israel.

Romans 11:25
For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will
not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until
the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Paul is definitely referring to a corporate election concerning the Gentiles.

To then start discussing the election of any individual would be missing what
Paul was discussing.
Really... Not individual you say?

Rom 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
Rom 9:12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.


I believe Jacob and Esau were individuals. Were they not?
 

awelight

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Aug 10, 2020
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#55
The following Scripture is Lord Jesus' prayer just before He was delivered up to be crucified. In it He points to the idea of ownership of one group of servants that originally belonged to The Father, which The Father gave to Him, these being Christ's Apostles. Then Jesus mentions a second group that believe on Him through the preaching of The Gospel by His Apostles. Thus with this, Jesus made a distinction between those 'chosen' vs. those 'called'...

John 17:1-23
17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour is come; glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee:
2 As Thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given Him.


That 2nd verse some go too far with, claiming that all who have believed on Jesus Christ in this world will remain in the Faith. God's Word, especially Apostles Paul and Peter, revealed that some believers had, and will fall away from the Faith. So this above is not meant as some 'once saved, always saved' doctrine of men. Stay in the Faith to be one of those given to Christ.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom Thou hast sent.

The Greek for "sent" is the word apostello. It's where the word 'apostle' comes from. To be sent, means to be in the office of Apostle, for Jesus also was sent by The Father directly.

4 I have glorified Thee on the earth: I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine Qwn self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.


Who might those be, that first belonged to The Father, and then He gave them to Lord Jesus? Those are about His 'chosen' "very elect" sent ones, Christ's Apostles. They keep God's Word as written. In Revelation 3, Lord Jesus even commended on those of the Church of Philadelphia because they kept His Word. Jesus had no rebuke for them.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine.
10 And all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine Own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


Lord Jesus is speaking of Judas Iscariot who betrayed Him to the Priests and Pharisees. Judas was originally a 'chosen' sent one, but then he did not keep the Faith, but fell away because of greed, which this was prophesied of in the Old Testament prophets. Hebrews 6 reveals what happens to one given proof of the gifts of the world to come, but then turns away from Christ.

13 And now come I to Thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have My joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them Thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.


Jesus is speaking of His 'chosen' very elect, His Apostles that were 'sent' into this world also. They represent Christ's leadership structure here on earth, as they were first in preaching The Gospel to wherever they were sent.

17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;


Now in the 20th verse above, Lord Jesus is pointing to a second group of servants. These are believers that convert to Him through His Apostle's preaching of The Gospel. These represent the 'called'. And these can... fall away, because they do not represent the 'chosen' sent "very elect" office of an apostle. Not all are apostles, like Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 12.

But Christ's desire is that ALL... believers on Him become part of His elect... that we all become one in Him and in The Father...

21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
22 And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are one:
23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me.
KJV


This means that as long we stay in the Faith, and do not become apostates falling away, then we are counted as one body of Christ's very elect.

So what will you do brethren with this coming pseudo-Christ which Jesus warned about in Matthew 24:23-26 that is soon to appear upon the world scene for the end of this world, proclaiming to be The Christ? We already know per Jesus that His "very elect" chosen ones that are sent today will not fall away to that coming false-Christ. But what about those of us who are 'called' only, and represent the majority of Christian believers today? We must keep His Word and stay in the Faith when tested by that coming false-Messiah, even to the death if delivered up like Jesus forewarned in Mark 13 and Revelation 2 to the Church of Smyrna.
A simple question.

If one of the Elect can fall away... then how do you explain these statements from our Lord?

John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing but should raise it up at the last day.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#56
Irrelevant, since I simply quoted what Jesus Himself said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His coming will be... AFTER... the tribulation!

Some here obviously ARE OFFENDED by what my Lord Jesus Christ said there in those Bible Scriptures! Those who are offended by what He said there do not belong to Him.
Context is tribulation, subjects are Israelites. Everybody knows this.

Church has been raptured before the man is sin is revealed, first seal.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
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#57
I categorically reject all attempts to settle this question. It was foreordained that I would exercise my free will to do so.

...

Wait....
Well done.
 

DavyP

Active member
Aug 11, 2024
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#58
Context is tribulation, subjects are Israelites. Everybody knows this.

Church has been raptured before the man is sin is revealed, first seal.
No, that is not what Apostle Paul taught in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Paul taught that the "man of sin" must appear FIRST, and the 2 Thess.2:8 confirms Jesus comes afterwards to destroy that false one...

2 Thess 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
KJV

Try reading The Bible for yourself instead of letting other men do it for you; they could mislead you.