The rapture? The comimg of Christ.

[TMS]

A large number of Christians have been exposed to this "dispensationalist" or "futurist" interpretation of prophecy called the secret rapture, and have been hopelessly confused.

According to this view, the coming of Jesus will be in two separate events. First, He will come secretly to take the church to heaven, and then, seven years later, He will come in an open demonstration of power and glory. In between those two events, the Antichrist is supposed to come into power and the great tribulation period takes place.

But the truth is that the Bible nowhere speaks of these two separate comings of Jesus. There is no second stage of His second coming that occurs seven years after the socalled "rapture." By the way, that word "rapture" is also an invention of theologians. It can't be found in the Bible in even a single instance. It is a word coined for the second advent of Jesus.

Now here is what we find in the Scriptures: Christ's coming, the resurrection, and catching up of the saints to meet Jesus in the air, all take place at the same time, at the end of the world. This is why Jesus said, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20). Now why would Jesus promise to be with the church until the end of the world if He intended to come seven years before the end to take them out of the world? The promise would have no meaning.

 

[Aussie52]

Here we go again!

 

[TMS]

The secret rapture doctrine contradicts the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 13 when He said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the "end of the world" and then would be separated. According to the two stage teaching of His coming, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world.

The righteous would be separated from the wicked seven years before the end. And what about the promise of the resurrection? Christ said, concerning the righteous, "And I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Yet Paul declares that the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the same time the dead in Christ are raised.

don't miss this the saints that are living are called up at the same time that Jesus raises the dead. Don't seperate this event.

He says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
Please keep in mind that Jesus called this resurrection the "last day." But how could it be the "last day" if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? And how could the "last trump" sound if it really wasn't the very last moment of time? Can you imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? And consider this additional testimony of the Word of God: ...............

Revelation 6:16,17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
1 Corinthians 15:52 "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."
Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."
Revelation 1:7 "Every eye shall see him. "
Matthew 24:30 "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Matthew 24:31 "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (This is clearly the time when Christ comes to gather His saints.)

The word is clear but people always find a way to twist things.

 

[Aussie52]

It's not a salvation issue. Why not live and let live.

 

[Magenta]

From Matthew 28:18-20

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The secret rapture doctrine contradicts the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 13 when He said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the "end of the world" and then would be separated. According to the two stage teaching of His coming, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world.

I would like to comment on just this part for the time being , to just put something for the readers to CONSIDER:


--In Scripture, and in nature, there is MORE THAN ONE "harvest" (and therefore MORE THAN ONE "firstfruit" corresponding with each distinct harvest);



--now, mind you, the word "harvest" does not mean / is not defined as "resurrection"... but each harvest would include that aspect also (IOW, "still-living" persons can be included when a passage references a "harvest"--so just keep in mind that I am not saying that the word "harvest" is DEFINED as "resurrection" [but may also include resurrection]);



--The "WHEAT" harvest is being spoken of in the context of the SECOND USE of the word "firstfruit" in Lev23... that is [the 2nd mention of "firstfruit" in Lev23] being in verse 17 (where it references: "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"); This verse says,

Lev 23:17
Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.
Lev 23:18
And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD.

... which ENLARGED text I see as PARALLEL to what we read of in Revelation 14:4 (about the "144,000" [of ONE NATION: Israel, per chpt 7]) who in this Rev14:4 text are [also] called "firstfruit" (but they have not yet existed on the earth in their "role" as spelled out in Rev); They are (it says in v.4) "firstfruit unto God and to the Lamb" (similar language to that of Lev23:17... in the "WHEAT" harvest section)-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/14/4/t_concif_1181004 ;



--elsewhere, Scripture says, "a KIND of firstfruit"... supporting the fact that there is MORE THAN ONE "kind" (each pertaining to their *own* particular "harvest"), James 1:18-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jas/1/18/t_concif_1147018 ;



--additionally, when speaking of "resurrection," Paul states in 1Cor15:22b-23a, "But each IN HIS OWN ORDER / RANK" (meaning, there is an ORDER / RANK to it... there doesn't remain only ONE at one singular point in time); Yes, the "dead IN CHRIST" will be resurrected *first* before the next thing immediately happening in that context, which is our being "caught-up [/snatched] TOGETHER WITH them" TO the meeting of the Lord "IN THE AIR" (then, at which point, 1Th3:13 will take place [see also Rev4]... "in the presence of the God and Father of us"), but this pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]")... not to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods (not to OT saints... not to Trib saints... not to MK-age saints);



--so given all of the above (and more), WE ("the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]") are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest; We are not even the "firstfruit" of the wheat harvest (the "144,000" will be, when they exist on the earth yet *future* to us); Furthermore, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is not described in Scripture as "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (which is associated with the "WHEAT" harvest, per Lev23:17), but is described in Scripture COMPLETELY OPPOSITE to those two descriptions! (Check that out!) Conclusion, *we* are not the "WHEAT" harvest--the 144,000 are the firstfruit of THAT "harvest". And the "WHEAT" harvest is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement);

But "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is of the EARLIER "harvest," which is harvested by means of "tossing up INTO THE AIR" and "BLOWING away the chaff";

See the distinctions?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But how could it be the "last day" if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world?

The phrase "IN the last day," where used, refers to "IN the last millennium" (the "7th Day / 7th Millennium"); So it is not referring to "the last singular 24-hr day" kind of day, any more than the "after TWO DAYS" and "IN the THIRD DAY" of Hosea 5:14-6:3 refers to "24-hr" kind of days. They don't.

And how could the "last trump" sound if it really wasn't the very last moment of time?

Well, "the last trump" isn't the "7th [judgment] Trumpet" that many assume is the case;
and it also is not the "GREAT" trumpet that "Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:9,12-13's" event speaks to (see vv.9,12c for the "WHO");

... instead, it is a trumpet that pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" and "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (and involves NO ONE ELSE, but *US*); Just like Numbers 10:4 states (in a context about how the "two silver trumpets" were to "sound" in distinct patterns for distinct PURPOSES), "And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather UNTO THEE [/MOSES]"

(not all of the patterns of the soundings were to the same PURPOSE).

 

[Hakawaka]

The secret rapture doctrine contradicts the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 13 when He said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the "end of the world" and then would be separated. According to the two stage teaching of His coming, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world.

The righteous would be separated from the wicked seven years before the end. And what about the promise of the resurrection? Christ said, concerning the righteous, "And I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Yet Paul declares that the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the same time the dead in Christ are raised.

don't miss this the saints that are living are called up at the same time that Jesus raises the dead. Don't seperate this event.

He says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
Please keep in mind that Jesus called this resurrection the "last day." But how could it be the "last day" if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? And how could the "last trump" sound if it really wasn't the very last moment of time? Can you imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? And consider this additional testimony of the Word of God: ...............

Revelation 6:16,17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
1 Corinthians 15:52 "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."
Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."
Revelation 1:7 "Every eye shall see him. "
Matthew 24:30 "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Matthew 24:31 "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (This is clearly the time when Christ comes to gather His saints.)

The word is clear but people always find a way to twist things.

Once you are into scifi and love escaping "the tribulation" whatever that is, you will love this doctrine and never let go

 

[TMS]

There seems to be lots of twisting the scriptures to make it say what you want...

It's very confusing the way you have explained it.

so given all of the above (and more), WE ("the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]") are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest; We are not even the "firstfruit" of the wheat harvest (the "144,000" will be, when they exist on the earth yet *future* to us); Furthermore, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is not described in Scripture as "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (which is associated with the "WHEAT" harvest, per Lev23:17), but is described in Scripture COMPLETELY OPPOSITE to those two descriptions! (Check that out!) Conclusion, *we* are not the "WHEAT" harvest--the 144,000 are the firstfruit of THAT "harvest". And the "WHEAT" harvest is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement);

I think we should read the Bible as little children and I don't find any verses that plainly states a secret rapture, or a separation between two ruptures.

I know you will quote some verses but let us look without presumption and with simple common sense at these verses.

Where does the bible say Jesus will secretly rapture away his saints?

The Bible is clear about these verses....
Psa 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence:
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, ....
Mat 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If you believe this is all the second part of the second coming or happens 7 years after the secret rapture. Where does the bible teach that?

 

[TMS]

The Apostles didn't talk about a secret rapture pretribulation rapture..

It started around the time when......

John Nelson Darby first solidified and popularized the pre-tribulation rapture in 1827. Despite vague notions of this view existing in a few Puritan theologians prior to Darby, he was the first person to place it into a larger theological framework .[72][73][74][75] This view was accepted among many other Plymouth Brethren movements in England.[76][page needed] Darby and other prominent Brethren were part of the Brethren movement which impacted American Christianity, especially with movements and teachings associated with Christian eschatology and fundamentalism, primarily through their writings. Influences included the Bible Conference Movement, starting in 1878 with the Niagara Bible Conference. These conferences, which were initially inclusive of historicist and futurist premillennialism, led to an increasing acceptance of futurist premillennial views and the pre-tribulation rapture especially among Presbyterian, Baptist, and Congregational members.[76]: 11 

This movement which impacted American Christianity, needs to be tested by the word of God.

The theories of men are not what we should build our faith on

2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[DRobinson]

There seems to be lots of twisting the scriptures to make it say what you want...

It's very confusing the way you have explained it.



I think we should read the Bible as little children and I don't find any verses that plainly states a secret rapture, or a separation between two ruptures.

I know you will quote some verses but let us look without presumption and with simple common sense at these verses.

Where does the bible say Jesus will secretly rapture away his saints?

The Bible is clear about these verses....
Psa 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence:
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, ....
Mat 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If you believe this is all the second part of the second coming or happens 7 years after the secret rapture. Where does the bible teach that?

I agree that many spin and twist Scripture to prove their point.
Revelation 19 &20 speaks of the first resurrection. It states that to escape the second death one must be in the first resurrection.
It states who will be included in that first resurrection.
The first resurrection that is spoken of here happens just as Paul stated in I Cor. 15:51-52 and I Thess. 4:13-17
At Jesus second coming all believers, from Adam to the last person who is saved, will be resurrected or changed.
We will meet Him in the air as he appears and return with Him to this earth. He will cast the beast and false prophet alive into the pit, bound Satan for a 1000 years and set up His 1000 year reign.
It states all who are not in the first resurrection will be resurrected after the 1000 year reign of Jesus and suffer the second death which is hell.
There will be many on this forum that will try to explain this simple truth away because it disproves their belief.
I will be in the first resurrection when Jesus returns,
I pray you will be also.

 

[TMS]

No verses have been given from the bible that plainly and simply explains a secret rapture.
I think your building your doctrine on sand, man made doctrine that is pleasing to the flesh.

I agree that many spin and twist Scripture to prove their point.
Revelation 19 &20 speaks of the first resurrection. It states that to escape the second death one must be in the first resurrection.
It states who will be included in that first resurrection.
The first resurrection that is spoken of here happens just as Paul stated in I Cor. 15:51-52 and I Thess. 4:13-17
At Jesus second coming all believers, from Adam to the last person who is saved, will be resurrected or changed.

Amen to that. It is plain and simple if you are looking for the truth.

i agree and thanks for your commant , i have a different view of were the 1000 years will be, and it will not be an issue if we are on Jesus's side. But if you would like to read a bible study on the subject i recommend ( https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4989/t/1-000-years-of-peace ) It uses bible verses to explain each point.

 

[DRobinson]

No verses have been given from the bible that plainly and simply explains a secret rapture.
I think your building your doctrine on sand, man made doctrine that is pleasing to the flesh.

Amen to that. It is plain and simple if you are looking for the truth.

i agree and thanks for your commant , i have a different view of were the 1000 years will be, and it will not be an issue if we are on Jesus's side. But if you would like to read a bible study on the subject i recommend ( https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4989/t/1-000-years-of-peace ) It uses bible verses to explain each point.

What is plain and simple is that the 1000 year reign of Jesus will begin when He returns and does just as Rev.19-20 states.
And that return is at the last (seventh) Trump of God.
I have been studying this for over 50 years, so I will pass on your suggestion.

 

[TMS]

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

"he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight". It was seen, not a secret. "in the same manner that He was taken up He will come".... No mention of a secret rapture.

 

[Inquisitor]

I agree that many spin and twist Scripture to prove their point.
Revelation 19 &20 speaks of the first resurrection. It states that to escape the second death one must be in the first resurrection.
It states who will be included in that first resurrection.
The first resurrection that is spoken of here happens just as Paul stated in I Cor. 15:51-52 and I Thess. 4:13-17
At Jesus second coming all believers, from Adam to the last person who is saved, will be resurrected or changed.
We will meet Him in the air as he appears and return with Him to this earth. He will cast the beast and false prophet alive into the pit, bound Satan for a 1000 years and set up His 1000 year reign.
It states all who are not in the first resurrection will be resurrected after the 1000 year reign of Jesus and suffer the second death which is hell.
There will be many on this forum that will try to explain this simple truth away because it disproves their belief.
I will be in the first resurrection when Jesus returns,
I pray you will be also.

Hello DRobinson.

There are requirements required to be a member of the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:4-5
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the
souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of
the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not
received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned
with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the
thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Restricted entry, members only.

 

[TMS]

What is plain and simple is that the 1000 year reign of Jesus will begin when He returns and does just as Rev.19-20 states.
And that return is at the last (seventh) Trump of God.
I have been studying this for over 50 years, so I will pass on your suggestion.

i agree that the 1000 years starts when He returns. but the place. Why do you think it will be on earth? Why pass? show me why this study is wrong? the truth will set me free.

 

[Inquisitor]

There seems to be lots of twisting the scriptures to make it say what you want...

It's very confusing the way you have explained it.



I think we should read the Bible as little children and I don't find any verses that plainly states a secret rapture, or a separation between two ruptures.

I know you will quote some verses but let us look without presumption and with simple common sense at these verses.

Where does the bible say Jesus will secretly rapture away his saints?

The Bible is clear about these verses....
Psa 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence:
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, ....
Mat 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If you believe this is all the second part of the second coming or happens 7 years after the secret rapture. Where does the bible teach that?

I don't think that the book of Revelation could be read and understood by a child.

 

[DRobinson]

Hello DRobinson.

There are requirements required to be a member of the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:4-5
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the
souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of
the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not
received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned
with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the
thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Restricted entry, members only.

It also states that the only way to escape the second death is to be in the first resurrection and if you read farther you will see what the second death is.
There will be no resurrection as described by Paul in I Thess. and I Cor. before the first resurrection as stated here in Rev.20.
You need to study more.

 

[Inquisitor]

I agree that many spin and twist Scripture to prove their point.
Revelation 19 &20 speaks of the first resurrection. It states that to escape the second death one must be in the first resurrection.
It states who will be included in that first resurrection.
The first resurrection that is spoken of here happens just as Paul stated in I Cor. 15:51-52 and I Thess. 4:13-17
At Jesus second coming all believers, from Adam to the last person who is saved, will be resurrected or changed.
We will meet Him in the air as he appears and return with Him to this earth. He will cast the beast and false prophet alive into the pit, bound Satan for a 1000 years and set up His 1000 year reign.
It states all who are not in the first resurrection will be resurrected after the 1000 year reign of Jesus and suffer the second death which is hell.
There will be many on this forum that will try to explain this simple truth away because it disproves their belief.
I will be in the first resurrection when Jesus returns,
I pray you will be also.

Eschatology for some reason is littered not with only interpretations of the scripture.

There are many additions to the text of revelation also.

For example, a seven year tribulation is not even mentioned in the text.

There is a forty two month reign of the beast stated in the scripture.

 

[DRobinson]

i agree that the 1000 years starts when He returns. but the place. Why do you think it will be on earth? Why pass? show me why this study is wrong? the truth will set me free.

No offense, but I do not click on websites or videos.
I don't have the time.
What will happen when Satan is set free after 1000 years?
Where will this take place?