The Gospels and the Mystery

[cv5]

Not only that, but the elements and the result of that mystery, in that Gentiles could be saved independent of Israel.

I would think that the term "interdependent" rather than "independent" would be a better choice.

 

[posthuman]

Not only that, but the elements and the result of that mystery, in that Gentiles could be saved independent of Israel. Downplaying the enormity of that mystery, and that it was not the same as that preached by the eleven, which I clearly showed through quotes right from the scriptures, I don't understand how or why you are denying it:

Naaman the Syrian.

the salvation of the Gentiles isn't absent from the OT, only there is a veil, which is still over the hearts of many, so that they cannot see it.

2 Kings 5 is a picture of Christ; it is exactly the same gospel, the only gospel any apostle ever preached.

 

[posthuman]

I would think that the term "interdependent" rather than "independent" would be a better choice.

amen, don't boast against the trunk, o branch!

 

[posthuman]

faith in that finished work alone was not Peter's message to them. He preached WORKS, as did James when stating that a man is justified by WORKS,

nope.

Peter preached the same thing Jesus did while in the world: whoever believes in Him will be saved: therefore repent, and become immersed in Him.

and James is talking about their witness before men, condemning them because they have been showing favoritism and neglecting the poor.

Peter and the other apostles did not preach a false gospel, no matter how many posts you write claiming they did.

 

[Gideon300]

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

This was not always the case. For proof of this:

Matthew 15:22-28
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Gentiles were dogs because:

Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

So, the idea that it's only one and the same Gospel throughout, that ignores what anyone can read in scripture, and is shown here and in the OP.

MM

God promised Abraham that all the families of the earth would be blessed through him. That was before there was a nation of Israel. God's covenant with Israel allowed for Gentiles to enter into the covenant and to be treated as covenant people. Israel could have ruled the whole world, at least in theory. We know that Israel was rebellious and disobedient and so lost the exalted position that God gave her.

God's intent was always to have His Son rule and reign and believers with Him. Israel was there to prove that men are unwilling to obey God because the sin nature is the same for Israelite and Gentile alike. The gospel is the same. The Law is not the gospel. There is no "good news" in the Law. It is only condemnation, not salvation.

 

[posthuman]

God's covenant with Israel allowed for Gentiles to enter into the covenant and to be treated as covenant people. Israel could have ruled the whole world, at least in theory.

not just theory that non-ethnic Jews believed and obeyed God after the time of Moses.

a mixed multitude left Egypt with them, the Gibeonites joined them in Canaan, and there were Ethiopian and Roman and Greek proselytes by the time of Christ.

but it is God who rules the world, Jesus Christ King of Kings - even Moses warned them having an human king was bad, but knew that they would take one anyway.

 

[posthuman]

Rather than to DO the work of water baptism, grace is the very expression of salvation by grace through faith without works.

So, using the ripped from its context of "common salvation" does not at all mesh together into one Gospel message that spans off of the time from the Gospels through Revelation. The differences are too glaring for there to be a seamless canvas that traverses across the entire NT narrative.

really?

show us where Jesus or Peter said whoever is not water baptized is condemned to eternal hell, plz.

 

[Musicmaster]

God promised Abraham that all the families of the earth would be blessed through him. That was before there was a nation of Israel. God's covenant with Israel allowed for Gentiles to enter into the covenant and to be treated as covenant people. Israel could have ruled the whole world, at least in theory. We know that Israel was rebellious and disobedient and so lost the exalted position that God gave her.

God's intent was always to have His Son rule and reign and believers with Him. Israel was there to prove that men are unwilling to obey God because the sin nature is the same for Israelite and Gentile alike. The gospel is the same. The Law is not the gospel. There is no "good news" in the Law. It is only condemnation, not salvation.

The Mosaic Law is an interesting study in itself.

Just to quote a few instances out of many, many declarations:

Leviticus 4:20, 26, 31, 35
20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them. ...
26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him. ...
31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn [it] upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him. ...
35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:10, 13, 16, 18
10 And he shall offer the second [for] a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him. ...
13 And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and [the remnant] shall be the priest's, as a meat offering. ...
16 And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him. ...
18 And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist [it] not, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 6:7 And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 19:22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.

So, faith, expressed through obedience in sacrifices, brought forgiveness of sin(s). It did not bring about the new birth nor the ultimate cleansing from sin as was achieved by Christ for us all at a later time to the Law, but obedience to the Law did show the faith of the individual to the extent of obedience to God's Law as best as each one could do when they did it from faith.

There are those out there, of course, who will claim that God doesn't say what He means in these and other instances, all in an attempt to try and force the word of God into conformance to their personal or group theologies from the bandwagon they happen to riding at the moment, but the Hebrew and Greek from which all this was translated says what it says, and all the warps and twists perpetrated by the many liars behind pulpits who sermonize it into oblivion, they are not worthy leaders within the Church. They are like placing some bubble-headed geriatric and his second in command sleaze-gal on the wall to guard the village, and who open the gates wide for all enemies to enter in the dead of the night while the people sleep...

The blood of animals...no, that blood is not what brought about the forgiveness. It was always faith, as demonstrated through obedience to the works commanded.

We today are not under the requirement for works to demonstrate our faith, for we are not indwelt by Holy Spirit after receiving the grace of God through faith. Faith in the fulfillment of the sacrifices in Christ Jesus is the reason we are not bound to works, such as water baptism as was preached by Peter in Acts 2, and James declaration of justification by works in chapter two if his epistle, all to those who were at that time under the Kingdom Gospel and its defining elements outside of the Blood of Christ Jesus.

MM

 

[Wansvic]

Not only that, but the elements and the result of that mystery, in that Gentiles could be saved independent of Israel. Downplaying the enormity of that mystery, and that it was not the same as that preached by the eleven, which I clearly showed through quotes right from the scriptures, I don't understand how or why you are denying it:

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Don't you see it? The Gentiles having an avenue for salvation independent of having to become a Jew...man, that's the one thing in this world that's awesome. No man, no thing, no event in this world is awesome, but the salvation revealed from that mystery that does not require entry into Judaism, that's what shines the light squarely upon the LORD.

So, if you are among those who preach the requirement for water baptism for the remission of sins, that is another gospel that is not written TO us today. That was for them back then who were still under the Kingdom Gospel. If you consider yourself under the Kingdom Gospel, and you think yourself capable of adding to grace, or completing it by way of works, then I'm afraid all who follow that thinking may end up with a surprise they won't like.

MM

Obedience to the gospel message does not make one a Jew. The NT rebirth makes both Jew and Gentile, one in the same, a child of God.

 

[Musicmaster]

Obedience to the gospel message does not make one a Jew. The NT rebirth makes both Jew and Gentile, one in the same, a child of God.

You didn't read all that I said on that topic. Before the cross, and soon after, Gentiles had to become Jews to be saved, for salvation was of the Jews for all.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

It wasn't until the Gospel of Grace whereby the distinctions were erased on the basis of grace.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

So, under the Gospel of Grace, THAT is when there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, make and female, etc. So at this time under the Gospel of Grace, we agree.

MM

 

[Wansvic]

The issue is not that they believed in the blood of Christ, what matters it the Gospel that they preached, and I quoted to you exactly what Peter preached, and it said nothing about the Blood of Christ. Those people listening underneath that balcony upon which Peter stood, we have no record that they were told about the need for faith in the shed Blood. What they were told when they asked as to be water baptized and repent. Yes, they were told that they had crucified the Messiah, which did indeed cut them to the heart, but faith in that finished work alone was not Peter's message to them. He preached WORKS, as did James when stating that a man is justified by WORKS, when Paul said that a man is justified by FAITH. That is NOT the same message. Spiritualizing it all will not create magical tape to try and make it all into one, singular Gospel at the exclusion of the content differences.

MM

Faith in what God says is true is what matters, not complete understanding of the mechanics behind the action(s) involved. Paul made this clear, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Romans 6:3-6

 

[Wansvic]

You didn't read all that I said on that topic. Before the cross, and soon after, Gentiles had to become Jews to be saved, for salvation was of the Jews for all.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

It wasn't until the Gospel of Grace whereby the distinctions were erased on the basis of grace.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

So, under the Gospel of Grace, THAT is when there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, make and female, etc. So at this time under the Gospel of Grace, we agree.

MM

Prior to the cross there were proselytes. However, after the cross water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin was commanded of everyone regardless of nationality.

 

[Musicmaster]

Faith in what God says is true is what matters, not complete understanding of the mechanics behind the action(s) involved. Paul made this clear, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Romans 6:3-6

In the spirit of avoiding red herrings, it's sufficient to say that scripture says what it means, and when Paul said this:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

...he meant what he said. His Gospel didn't include baptism requirements, nor did it include a requirement for repentance because having faith in the work accomplished by Christ Jesus is a change of mind in itself, and so no need to invoke the obvious.

You're right, in that all of scripture is true, but not all of it is was written TO us today. The truth of the Mosaic Law was true for those who were under it, and justification by works is also something we are not under today that James wrote about in James 2. We are justified by faith. Anyone who thinks that they can impress the Lord, who has already bestowed upon us His unmerited favor (grace), by their works in relation to their justification and salvation, they are all in danger of preaching to others "another gospel." Far too many people are not taking heed to what scripture teaches us, and that was written TO us by rightly dividing the word of truth. Taking what was written TO others as if it all applies to us today, that's false teaching, and those false teachers are under the curse of God.

Good works should only be a natural outflow from the salvation we have been given, and the new birth that resulted, not things that we should convey to others are enhancements of our salvation that was and is a gift. The psychotic or spiritual indifference some have toward what's actually stated in scripture is the reason there are so many denominations today. It's just pure evil.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Prior to the cross there were proselytes. However, after the cross water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin was commanded of everyone regardless of nationality.

Yes...until the Gospel of Grace was implemented and established by the Lord. Water baptism today saves nobody.

MM

 

[vassal]

Peter disagrees with you.

Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

that very disputed book of 2 peter 3 ( check it out for yourself in detail please ) is the only thing that prevent total rejection of paul's writings

 

[vassal]

Canyou post the scripture of the gospel Jesus preached that you believe in?

yes, here it is, also know that Jesus always preached everything in the open never in secret, jesus had hundreds of witnesses while he preached, paul has none, Zero! all received in secret ( no witnessses) witnessing is an important itemin the bible, all was witnessed except pauls. It is why jesus said;

• John 5:31 (KJV):
  "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."
• John 8:17-18 (KJV):
  "It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me."
• John 10:25 (KJV):
  "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me."

link https://christianchat.com/threads/forgotten-the-true-gospel-of-jesus-christ.215548/post-5321305

 

[Sipsey]

that very disputed book of 2 peter 3 ( check it out for yourself in detail please ) is the only thing that prevent total rejection of paul's writings

Taken in totality and in context, Pauls writings harmonize with the entire body of Scripture. I’m sorry you have a low view of the Bible.

 

[rogerg]

yes, here it is, also know that Jesus always preached everything in the open never in secret, jesus had hundreds of witnesses while he preached, paul has none, Zero! all received in secret ( no witnessses) witnessing is an important itemin the bible, all was witnessed except pauls.

None? In secret? I must be misunderstanding you.

[2Pe 3:15-16 KJV]
15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

[Act 17:19-20, 22 KJV]
19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, [is]?
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. ...
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, [Ye] men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

[Rom 1:1, 7 KJV]
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, ...
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[1Co 1:1-2 KJV]
1 Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

[2Co 1:1 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy [our] brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

[Gal 1:1-2 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

[Eph 1:1 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

[Phl 1:1 KJV]
1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

[Col 1:1-2 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus [our] brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord

[1Th 1:1 KJV]
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[2Th 1:1 KJV]
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

ETC.

 

[cv5]

The Mosaic Law is an interesting study in itself.

Just to quote a few instances out of many, many declarations:

Leviticus 4:20, 26, 31, 35
20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them. ...
26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him. ...
31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn [it] upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him. ...
35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:10, 13, 16, 18
10 And he shall offer the second [for] a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him. ...
13 And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and [the remnant] shall be the priest's, as a meat offering. ...
16 And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him. ...
18 And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist [it] not, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 6:7 And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 19:22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.

So, faith, expressed through obedience in sacrifices, brought forgiveness of sin(s). It did not bring about the new birth nor the ultimate cleansing from sin as was achieved by Christ for us all at a later time to the Law, but obedience to the Law did show the faith of the individual to the extent of obedience to God's Law as best as each one could do when they did it from faith.

There are those out there, of course, who will claim that God doesn't say what He means in these and other instances, all in an attempt to try and force the word of God into conformance to their personal or group theologies from the bandwagon they happen to riding at the moment, but the Hebrew and Greek from which all this was translated says what it says, and all the warps and twists perpetrated by the many liars behind pulpits who sermonize it into oblivion, they are not worthy leaders within the Church. They are like placing some bubble-headed geriatric and his second in command sleaze-gal on the wall to guard the village, and who open the gates wide for all enemies to enter in the dead of the night while the people sleep...

The blood of animals...no, that blood is not what brought about the forgiveness. It was always faith, as demonstrated through obedience to the works commanded.

We today are not under the requirement for works to demonstrate our faith, for we are not indwelt by Holy Spirit after receiving the grace of God through faith. Faith in the fulfillment of the sacrifices in Christ Jesus is the reason we are not bound to works, such as water baptism as was preached by Peter in Acts 2, and James declaration of justification by works in chapter two if his epistle, all to those who were at that time under the Kingdom Gospel and its defining elements outside of the Blood of Christ Jesus.

MM

1Co 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Gods "perfect" plan of salvation MUST include His purposed raising of the nation Israel. And the Law.
Because God does not make mistakes, this was the only correct perfect way.

So.....efforts at separating/parsing out ANY parameter of the Scripture from any other will doubtless end in disaster and produce heresies.

 

[posthuman]

that very disputed book of 2 peter 3 ( check it out for yourself in detail please ) is the only thing that prevent total rejection of paul's writings

have you ever heard of a book called "Acts"?