Gods will vs mans free will

[cv5]

I can wholeheartedly agree with scripture - God works out everything according to the council of his will (not mans). That of course is just after we are told 'in Him' we have been predestined.

So the queation really is not that we disagree with predestination for it is biblical.. But rather as sproul states 'what exactly does the biblical concept of predestination mean?'

It means a FUTURE DESTINATION. And has nothing whatsoever to do with the past.
Yet the hopelessly gaslighted (and none too bright) Calvinists think that: foreordained = predestined

When in fact these terms are polar opposites!
Not only that, the parties to which these terms apply are utterly distinct.

BTW Sproul was basically useless as a resource for these matters. He was utterly clueless about eschatology too.
He was a cookie cutter Reformist. In fact his whole "ministry" trumpets this precedent.

 

[Magenta]

2 Corinthians 4:4 plus I wonder how when someone is blind to something, which, let's face it, means they cannot see it at all, or comprehend it, and finds the message connected to it foolishness, and is hostile in their minds toward the One True God behind it all, and loves evil, and suppresses truth, and cannot come to God on his own, being a slave of sin and unable to submit to God's law... I wonder how these people who push "free will" think such a person suddenly decides to throw over their very human nature and choose something he cannot even receive... some say without any help from God at all.

 

[cv5]

she was never asked she was told ---- Your in the wrong cv5

Absolutely FALSE. The requirement of informed consent is embedded, as it is in every OT covenant agreement.
The fact of PERMISSION GRANTED proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt.
The fact of which I trolled to the board to see if anybody "got it". Aaaand they didn't.
Because they have been drinking the Calvinist Kool-aide for so long that they now have brain damage.

The hopelessly clueless Calvinist do not correct their error (in spite of strident effort), and blaspheme God as a result.

 

[cv5]

she was never asked she was told ---- Your in the wrong cv5

"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus."

BTW, the Calvinist do not understand this passage either. You know.....consent/permisson?
Consent is required between the Trinity? Really? Wow.

Mat 26:42
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

 

[Magenta]

Psalm 14:1-3; Job 15:16

 

[phil36]

The language and phrasing is a marvel.
People of this school all speak the same.

No I would say you impugn the righteous, holy, loving character of God along with denying the words of Jesus.

Is God obligated to be gracious?

 

[cv5]

Is God obligated to be gracious?

Only to those who sincerely ask for it. As did Rahab and the Gibeonites.

 

[phil36]

It means a FUTURE DESTINATION. And has nothing whatsoever to do with the past.
Yet the hopelessly gaslighted (and none too bright) Calvinists think that: foreordained = predestined

When in fact these terms are polar opposites!
Not only that, the parties to which these terms apply are utterly distinct.

BTW Sproul was basically useless as a resource for these matters. He was utterly clueless about eschatology too.
He was a cookie cutter Reformist. In fact his whole "ministry" trumpets this precedent.

Yes, it regards destination, that was 'pre'. In other words the 'pre' of predistination relates to time. In the bible predestination takes place not only before we belive in Christ but from all eternity, before the universe was created. Paul explains this simply below:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him j before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. Eph 1:3ff

Its basic english.

 

[cv5]

Yes, it regards destination, that was 'pre'. In other words the 'pre' of predistination relates to time. In the bible predestination takes place not only before we belive in Christ but from all eternity, before the universe was created. Paul explains this simply below:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him j before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. Eph 1:3ff

Its basic english.

Calvinism always wrecks the accurate meaning of those passages.
Biblical soundbites is the Calvinist calling card.

BTW.....you fumbled the pass. Bummer.

 

[phil36]

Only to those who sincerely ask for it. As did Rahab and the Gibeonites.

So the question was.. Is God obligated to be gracious. You say he is bound to man, to those who 'sincerely' ask.

So God is bound to do the will of man? As your suggesting! Biblically no, God is not bound by the creature he created.

Only those whom God changes their heart will sincerely ask.

 

[cv5]

So the question was.. Is God obligated to be gracious. You say he is bound to man, to those who 'sincerely' ask.

So God is bound to do the will of man? As your suggesting! Biblically no, God is not bound by the creature he created.

Only those whom God changes their heart will sincerely ask.

You've got that all wrong. He is bound to do His own will.
And His will is to save ALL that call on his Name.

When you are a Calvinist....your mind is a bag of cats.

 

[phil36]

Calvinism always wrecks the accurate meaning of those passages.
Biblical soundbites is the Calvinist calling card.

BTW.....you fumbled the pass. Bummer.

Thanks for your opinion. You do know there is a reason for 'pre' in the term predestination.

All Christians, whether Arminian/provisionist or Calvinist realise that the 'pre' in predestination refers to eternity past.

How God predestinates is a different argument.

 

[phil36]

You've got that all wrong. He is bound to do His own will.
And His will is to save ALL that call on his Name.

When you are a Calvinist....your mind is a bag of cats.

Certainly God will always do what is His own will. He has willed from eternity past to show grace to those whom he chose (as paul says). He is not obligated to show grace to anyone. He freely chose to do so.

 

[cv5]

He freely chose to do so.

God FREELY chose to covenant with Himself to save all those who FREELY choose to believe Him.
You know.....like Abraham. And the Gibeonites. And the Ninevites.

And Rahab.....who was chosen to live because she chose to believe God's warning and put her faith in YHVH, whereby she obtained the covenant of life, the TRUE TOKEN.

This while the vast majority of the Canaanites CHOSE unbelief, and run headlong into judgement by denying the UNMISTAKEABLE WITNESS that God laid before them ie Egypt/Pharaoh and Amorites/Sihon/Og.

Jos 2:9
And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.

Jos 2:10
For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.

Jos 2:11
And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

Jos 2:12
Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the LORD, since I have shewed you kindness, that ye will also shew kindness unto my father's house, and give me a true token:

===============================================================================================

So now go ahead and conjure up any scatter-brained theory you want about how all of this went down.
Go ahead and postulate how God jammed belief down the throat of Abraham, the Ninevites, the Gibeonites, Rahab.....whoever you want.
The more convoluted you make it, the more absurd it becomes. And the more blasphemous.

 

[cv5]

He is not obligated to show grace to anyone.

False. He is obligated to uphold His covenant. And his covenant is to show saving grace to all those who believe on Him.

 

[cv5]

Thanks for your opinion. You do know there is a reason for 'pre' in the term predestination.

All Christians, whether Arminian/provisionist or Calvinist realise that the 'pre' in predestination refers to eternity past.

How God predestinates is a different argument.

Nope. The DESTINATION is UNDOUBTELY future.
It just happens to be a result of God's providential gracious planning in eternity past.

And don't blame God for being evil because He just happens to know who will CHOSE to believe.
Because that is EXACTLY what the Calvinists end up doing......repeating Satan's accusation.

Frankly I find all of these endless accusations horrific.
Same goes for this accusation of the Holy Spirit VIOLATING the free will of Mary in Luke 1.
Ridiculous and not supported in any way by the text.

Yes, Calvinists demand that God gets the blame for everything, and glory for nothing.
And yes, they make every covenant bogus, every offer of forgiveness a fraud, and every command to repent an impossibility.

But you know what? People still choose Christ and get saved anyways. Thank You Lord!

 

[phil36]

God FREELY chose to covenant with Himself to save all those who FREELY choose to believe Him.
You know.....like Abraham. And the Gibeonites. And the Ninevites.

And Rahab.....who was chosen to live because she chose to believe God's warning and put her faith in YHVH, whereby she obtained the covenant of life, the TRUE TOKEN.

This while the vast majority of the Canaanites CHOSE unbelief, and run headlong into judgement by denying the UNMISTAKEABLE WITNESS that God laid before them ie Egypt/Pharaoh and Amorites/Sihon/Og.

Jos 2:9
And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.

Jos 2:10
For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.

Jos 2:11
And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

Jos 2:12
Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the LORD, since I have shewed you kindness, that ye will also shew kindness unto my father's house, and give me a true token:

===============================================================================================

So now go ahead and conjure up any scatter-brained theory you want about how all of this went down.
Go ahead and postulate how God jammed belief down the throat of Abraham, the Ninevites, the Gibeonites, Rahab.....whoever you want.
The more convoluted you make it, the more absurd it becomes. And the more blasphemous.

Your almost there..

Yes God freely chose to go into covenant with those whom he freely chose to do so.

Nevertheless, God was not, nor ever obligated to show grace to anyone.

If God was obligated to give saving grace to people then it is wages - merited..

 

[phil36]

Nope. The DESTINATION is UNDOUBTELY future.
It just happens to be a result of God's providential gracious planning in eternity past.

And don't blame God for being evil because He just happens to know who will CHOSE to believe.
Because that is EXACTLY what the Calvinists end up doing......repeating Satan's accusation.

Frankly I find all of these endless accusations horrific.
Same goes for this accusation of the Holy Spirit VIOLATING the free will of Mary in Luke 1.
Ridiculous and not supported in any way by the text.

Yes, Calvinists demand that God gets the blame for everything, and glory for nothing.
And yes, they make every covenant bogus, every offer of forgiveness a fraud, and every command to repent an impossibility.

But you know what? People still choose Christ and get saved anyways. Thank You Lord!

Yep, but unfortunatley for your argument paul does not say
You are destined (destination). He says you are predestined. You forgot the 'pre' part.

 

[phil36]

False. He is obligated to uphold His covenant. And his covenant is to show saving grace to all those who believe on Him.

Yes God obligated himself In covenant with man.

But he was never obligated to make covenant in the first place.

He freely chose to do so before mam was created.

 

[Magenta]

From Ephesians 1:4-6