The word of God is not a secret code that needs unlocked.
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Just saying so does not mean anything unless you can prove your case that you are an expert in Hebrew, and in reading the different Hebrew manuscripts in context. So what we have to go on are English translations. If you cannot read things in context, then you have a problem. Acting like you know a language when you don't is the common theme we see today in Modernism. Everybody is a Hebrew and Greek expert, but when push comes to shove, they really don't know much.
The fact that these "sons of God" are presenting themselves before the Lord (YHWH) strongly suggests a formal gathering or assembly, often interpreted as a heavenly council.
While God is Omnipresent, here are verses that tell us that God resides in Heaven.
So naturally, if the sons of God present themselves before the Lord shows that the place is Heaven.
After the fall, God normally does not reveal Himself on Earth unless it is for a special occasion or event.
This is a pretty basic fact if you know the Bible.
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The fact that these "sons of God" are presenting themselves before the Lord (YHWH) strongly suggests a formal gathering or assembly, often interpreted as a heavenly council.
While God is Omnipresent, here are verses that tell us that God resides in Heaven.
- Psalm 11:4 – "The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men."
- Isaiah 66:1 – "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?"
- Matthew 5:34 – "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne."
- Ecclesiastes 5:2 – "Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few."
- 1 Kings 8:30 – "And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive."
- Matthew 6:9 – "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."
So naturally, if the sons of God present themselves before the Lord shows that the place is Heaven.
After the fall, God normally does not reveal Himself on Earth unless it is for a special occasion or event.
This is a pretty basic fact if you know the Bible.
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Side Note:
Just want to make it clear that when I say reveal, I am not saying that the Father has been seen by human eyes. However, the Son has been seen and He has told others on the Earth about the Father. In fact, some of the miracles of Christ were a sense a way of making the Father known. But still, nobody has physically seen the Father with their own two eyes.
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Just want to make it clear that when I say reveal, I am not saying that the Father has been seen by human eyes. However, the Son has been seen and He has told others on the Earth about the Father. In fact, some of the miracles of Christ were a sense a way of making the Father known. But still, nobody has physically seen the Father with their own two eyes.
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Good catch. Totally agree. Hope I can keep that in my mental file cabinet.
And yes, I stand firmly in the angelic "Sons of God" view.
This is why:
2Co 5:
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house G3613 which is from heaven:
Jde 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, ****but left**** their own habitation, G3613 he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
The KJV translates Strong's G3613 in the following manner: house (1x), habitation (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage
I do believe that these two verses ALONE are CONCLUSIVE, as that term is only used twice in all the Bible.
No need for further debate. Case closed.
And yes, I stand firmly in the angelic "Sons of God" view.
This is why:
2Co 5:
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house G3613 which is from heaven:
Jde 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, ****but left**** their own habitation, G3613 he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
The KJV translates Strong's G3613 in the following manner: house (1x), habitation (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage
- a dwelling place, habitation
- of the body as a dwelling place for the spirit
I do believe that these two verses ALONE are CONCLUSIVE, as that term is only used twice in all the Bible.
No need for further debate. Case closed.
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I also ENLARGED the words "the Lord" in my post.
Because that [that part] was INCLUDED in what I am pointing out about how the other words ("present" and "before"--these Hebrew words) are used (elsewhere in Scripture) to speak of HUMANS (located ON THE EARTH) are doing this.
I hoped you would yourself look that up, to SEE whether these things (I'm pointing out) ARE SO.
Of course, we all know this. But that's beside the point
(beside the point that I AM POINTING OUT, specifically.)
I'm pointing out that, the fact there is OTHER places using THESE HEBREW WORDS (I've underlined / emphasized), yet is speaking of HUMANS who are LOCATED ON THE EARTH doing this, negates your claim that this "naturally" must be the case that the place is "IN HEAVEN".
I wouldn't have brought it up, otherwise.
All I'm asking is that you CHECK IT OUT (feel free to PROVE OTHERWISE, as to what point I'm actually making... Not one I'm NOT making. haha)
Repeatedly in Job 1 & 2, the phrase "there became a day" is used (or however you want to read that phrase). I don't see any passage elsewhere in Scripture where this speaks of "[there became a day] UP IN HEAVEN". I've not seen one. Maybe you can point one out to me??
I DO see, however, that Job chapter 1, verses 4-5 (just prior to 1:6), it talks about "when the days of their feasting were finished" and how Job then "offered burnt offerings according to the number of them"... and "Thus Job did continually."
(The verses which follow aren't changing the subject ENTIRELY. Even though, as we might say, it may be starting a new "paragraph".)
Because that [that part] was INCLUDED in what I am pointing out about how the other words ("present" and "before"--these Hebrew words) are used (elsewhere in Scripture) to speak of HUMANS (located ON THE EARTH) are doing this.
I hoped you would yourself look that up, to SEE whether these things (I'm pointing out) ARE SO.
Of course, we all know this. But that's beside the point
(beside the point that I AM POINTING OUT, specifically.)
I'm pointing out that, the fact there is OTHER places using THESE HEBREW WORDS (I've underlined / emphasized), yet is speaking of HUMANS who are LOCATED ON THE EARTH doing this, negates your claim that this "naturally" must be the case that the place is "IN HEAVEN".
I wouldn't have brought it up, otherwise.
All I'm asking is that you CHECK IT OUT (feel free to PROVE OTHERWISE, as to what point I'm actually making... Not one I'm NOT making. haha)
Repeatedly in Job 1 & 2, the phrase "there became a day" is used (or however you want to read that phrase). I don't see any passage elsewhere in Scripture where this speaks of "[there became a day] UP IN HEAVEN". I've not seen one. Maybe you can point one out to me??
I DO see, however, that Job chapter 1, verses 4-5 (just prior to 1:6), it talks about "when the days of their feasting were finished" and how Job then "offered burnt offerings according to the number of them"... and "Thus Job did continually."
(The verses which follow aren't changing the subject ENTIRELY. Even though, as we might say, it may be starting a new "paragraph".)
Yes, but look what [this one] says,
Isa 14:13
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Tools
Isa 14:14
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
[the parts I BOLDED... show an UPWARD move, not a relocation downward (to the earth), so to speak]
Isa 14:13
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Tools
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
[the parts I BOLDED... show an UPWARD move, not a relocation downward (to the earth), so to speak]
Yes, but look what [this one] says,
Isa 14:13
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Tools
Isa 14:14
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
[the parts I BOLDED... show an UPWARD move, not a relocation downward (to the earth), so to speak]
Isa 14:13
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Tools
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
[the parts I BOLDED... show an UPWARD move, not a relocation downward (to the earth), so to speak]
It may be that Satan and his host are excluded from the "third heaven" only, the realm outside of and beyond the created.
And the second heaven is probably a very VERY big space. Spanning the universe probably.
Difficult to say though.
Given the 70th week context of these verses, these events occur AFTER Satan's fall. Long after.
Rev 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Right. Satan will be "cast out [unto the earth]" when there are 1260 days yet remaining to Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19.
I believe the following verse takes place at that same time-slot: "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit." - Rev9:1 (The "FIFTH Trumpet" associated with the "FIRST 'WOE'" unto the earth--See 8:13 for that info)
[the word "FALL" being a negative [thing], in this context]
I understand Jesus' words (in the gospels) to be a prophecy (of the "future"): "I saw Satan FALL..."
I believe the following verse takes place at that same time-slot: "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit." - Rev9:1 (The "FIFTH Trumpet" associated with the "FIRST 'WOE'" unto the earth--See 8:13 for that info)
[the word "FALL" being a negative [thing], in this context]
I understand Jesus' words (in the gospels) to be a prophecy (of the "future"): "I saw Satan FALL..."
I don't consider KJV numerology evidence of anything other than that some people have too much time on their hands, so I won't discuss it with you.
How about you don't try to put words in my mouth. We'll both save time that way.
Did I say that? No. See above. I don't waste my time defending assertions I haven't made.
You seem to be referring to Psalm 12. Just quote the reference so it's clear for all readers.
Where is that in Scripture? Read the 1611 Preface to the Reader. It refutes such claims quite adequately.
Based on evidence between its covers, I don't believe the KJV is perfect, period. That has nothing to do with any other translation. Because the KJV is not perfect, I use other translations regularly.
Irrelevant.
Does today's text of the KJV match the 1611 text word for word, excusing changes in letter form and spelling? No. Stop being a hypocrite, and stop using a broad brush.
The emoji is "Boring", not "Sleep"; it even says so when you hover over it. Now understand that it is an expression of MY response to YOUR post, period. Now consider how often you use "negative" responses and consider "how God feels" about your disagreeable attitude, your insults and slanderous implications, and other less-than-charitable behavior. Don't be a jackdonkey. Don't think for a second that everything you post is "the word of God" and get off your ridiculous high horse.
How about you don't try to put words in my mouth. We'll both save time that way.
Did I say that? No. See above. I don't waste my time defending assertions I haven't made.
You seem to be referring to Psalm 12. Just quote the reference so it's clear for all readers.
Where is that in Scripture? Read the 1611 Preface to the Reader. It refutes such claims quite adequately.
Based on evidence between its covers, I don't believe the KJV is perfect, period. That has nothing to do with any other translation. Because the KJV is not perfect, I use other translations regularly.
Irrelevant.
Does today's text of the KJV match the 1611 text word for word, excusing changes in letter form and spelling? No. Stop being a hypocrite, and stop using a broad brush.
The emoji is "Boring", not "Sleep"; it even says so when you hover over it. Now understand that it is an expression of MY response to YOUR post, period. Now consider how often you use "negative" responses and consider "how God feels" about your disagreeable attitude, your insults and slanderous implications, and other less-than-charitable behavior. Don't be a jackdonkey. Don't think for a second that everything you post is "the word of God" and get off your ridiculous high horse.
The Greek ended up being translated commonly as "natural man."
The Greek uses a word which we have derived the word "psychic, psychology, psychiatry, ...... and, soul.'
The word is psuchikos.
To the Greek reader, in the day it was written, it could have been understood to mean...
Not, natural man.
But, 'soulish man.
Some translators understanding the historical use have even went as far to translate it...
'the man without a spirit.'
The unbeliever is body and soul only.
Regeneration gives a person a human spirit, making him body, soul, and spirit.
That is why we read in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, the following.
The natural man is unregenerate.
No human spirit.
Only body and soul!
................... He can not know spiritual things!
grace and peace .................................
The Greek uses a word which we have derived the word "psychic, psychology, psychiatry, ...... and, soul.'
The word is psuchikos.
To the Greek reader, in the day it was written, it could have been understood to mean...
Not, natural man.
But, 'soulish man.
Some translators understanding the historical use have even went as far to translate it...
'the man without a spirit.'
The unbeliever is body and soul only.
Regeneration gives a person a human spirit, making him body, soul, and spirit.
That is why we read in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, the following.
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming
of our Lord Jesus Christ.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming
of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The natural man is unregenerate.
No human spirit.
Only body and soul!
................... He can not know spiritual things!
grace and peace .................................
Between:
Cognitive Biases
Cognitive dissonance
Reading comprehension difficulties
Language/translation difficulties
heavy Metaphoric language use
Literary license with requisite anthropology knowledge
Ancient Near East literature style
Scripture is somewhat deceptive at times. Things aren't always as plain and obvious as you would think they should be. Of course we have thousands of years of people pointing out some of these things. But that still doesn't mean that they understood what they read when they read it. Even supposed scholars get stuff wrong on a regular basis. Happens to even the best of us when facing publishing deadlines. Especially as knowledge becomes more specialized as time goes by. (Impossible to know everything)
Even though we have the scriptures translated....it's still not easy to readily understand 5700 year old Ancient Near Eastern Poetry. And even at that....it's akin to being an expert in Midievil French Renaissance Poetry....you just aren't that much fun at parties. People look at it as if it's wasted knowledge.
And ANE poetry....it's not simple or easy.
Cognitive Biases
Cognitive dissonance
Reading comprehension difficulties
Language/translation difficulties
heavy Metaphoric language use
Literary license with requisite anthropology knowledge
Ancient Near East literature style
Scripture is somewhat deceptive at times. Things aren't always as plain and obvious as you would think they should be. Of course we have thousands of years of people pointing out some of these things. But that still doesn't mean that they understood what they read when they read it. Even supposed scholars get stuff wrong on a regular basis. Happens to even the best of us when facing publishing deadlines. Especially as knowledge becomes more specialized as time goes by. (Impossible to know everything)
Even though we have the scriptures translated....it's still not easy to readily understand 5700 year old Ancient Near Eastern Poetry. And even at that....it's akin to being an expert in Midievil French Renaissance Poetry....you just aren't that much fun at parties. People look at it as if it's wasted knowledge.
And ANE poetry....it's not simple or easy.