What Changed?

[Genez]

Grace shutting down your sin nature?

That is not grace. That is selection.. Based on whatever God deems fit..


Thats interesting since Paul said we still struggle with our sin nature (self righteousness) even after we are saved.

You could not be who you today are without grace.

Grace controls what God wants controlled, as He wants it controlled. To make us able to believe, He first needed to put our sin nature asleep. Thus allowing for your soul to choose free of the sin nature's dominance.

​

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​

rest on me. 2 Cor 12:9​

What God's grace power does for us, as believers, is done by virtue of the same Cross that paid for the unbeliever's sins!
If God wants to suppress the unbeliever's sin nature as to free up his soul? Thus, enabling his soul to believe or to be free to reject? (without the sin nature causing the rejection). That is God's sovereign right and power to do so.


........

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You could not be who you today are without grace.

No one could be, even the athiest would be non existent, because without Grace God would have wiped us out eons ago

Grace controls what God wants controlled, as He wants it controlled.

Grace does not control anything, Grace is basically Gods favor. The fact anyone walks the face of this earth who has sinne3d against God is but by the grace of God.

To make us able to believe, He first needed to put our sin nature asleep. Thus allowing for your soul to choose free of the sin nature's dominance.

But he does not do this. What he does is show us who he is, convict us of our sin, convict us of his righteousness and his justice. and show us his plan of salvation.

we then have to chose what we will believe. Our own sinful nature or his divine nature.

​

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​

rest on me. 2 Cor 12:9​

This was spoken to paul long after paul was saved. and was pauls answer to remove a thorn in the flesh..

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to [b]buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me

What God's grace power does for us, as believers, is done by virtue of the same Cross that paid for the unbeliever's sins!
If God wants to suppress the unbeliever's sin nature as to free up his soul?

God does not have to do this, God has the power to teach people. why do you deny the power of God and put it back in a persons hands?

Thus, enabling his soul to believe or to be free to reject? (without the sin nature causing the rejection). That is God's sovereign right and power to do so.


........

But that is not how it works. Man already knows of God and his power. and already knows they are rightly judged. God gave them over to a depraved mind, denying not only the creation but the creator. thus they have no excuse.

Romans 1 explains this in great detail

 

[Karlon]

in late 1992, 1 day i said to myself: "hhhmmmmm, let me check out this thing called "born again". it was really me, not some calling or someone saying something to me. i always had a yearning for God. was non-denominational at the time & was going to church. so in May or June of 1993, i became a born again Christian. with a bit of help from the girl i was dating at the time.

 

[Genez]

Grace does not control anything, Grace is basically Gods favor.

Paul said this.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​

rest on me. 2 Cor 12:9​

Paul said, God's grace is power. Unmerited favor is catch phrase that has become tradition because the Greek word for grace can indicate several meanings. But, Paul said its God's power for us to overcome weakness and helplessness.

God's grace power can take a believer out of the realm of being controlled by the flesh.

​

You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. ​

And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." Romans 8:9​

​

Anything can be argued about. Paul says that God's grace is His power. And, that power controls the believer who walks in the Spirit.

 

[Rufus]

This was my point....

For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit,
and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.
They are opposed to each other, so that you do not
do what you want." Galatians 5:17

Unless God deals with your flesh while hearing the Gospel?
You will not be able to believe.

For it's with your soul alone that you believe, if you want to believe.
God's saves your soul, not your body.

That is why we must be given grace in order to believe.
Grace is God's power to make us able to be what He wants us to be.

Now? If grace is holding down someone's flesh while hearing the Gospel?.
And, their sin nature can not interfere?
They are still free not to believe...
Since the sin nature had been taken out of the equation when being presented the Gospel?
That choice to reject? Can not be from the sin nature.
What it ends up being the source for their rejection? Evil!
That is what Satan rejected the Lord from. Evil!

Jesus died for our sins.
Jesus could not die for Evil...


In Christ,, grace and peace .

Scripture tells us that God is GREATER than our [EVIL] hearts and knows precisely how to deal with us individually (1Jn 3:20). God does not remove a person's sin (aka "flesh") when hearing the gospel. We always have the flesh with us in this age. BUT...the Holy Spirit subdues that nature to the point whereby the hearer is made willing in the day of the Lord's power. This is why the Spirit is in constant warfare with our flesh, and vice versa. When Lydia heard the Gospel, scripture tells us that God opened her HEART -- not just her ears per se (Act 16.14). Yes, the gospel entered through her ears but then resonated within heart (the whole person) so that she could believe it with her HEART -- and not just with her mind. A heartfelt belief requires that all a person's faculties are engaged in believing.

But what's even more amazing about Lydia, we are told that she was a "worshiper of God", which means she had converted to Judaism at some point in her life -- but didn't believe in the Messiah until Paul preached to her. So...if this religious "worshiper of God" still needed God to graciously act in her life, how much more so with pagans?

 

[Genez]

Scripture tells us that God is GREATER than our [EVIL] hearts and knows precisely how to deal with us individually (1Jn 3:20). God does not remove a person's sin (aka "flesh") when hearing the gospel.

Not remove. " Suppresses. " Thus ... making one's soul able to choose.

Without that control of grace over our depravity in our flesh no one could believe.

The soul is not the body. And, the body is not the soul.
But the flesh will dominate over the soul unless God's power of grace suppresses the flesh.

 

[Rufus]

No one could be, even the athiest would be non existent, because without Grace God would have wiped us out eons ago


Grace does not control anything, Grace is basically Gods favor. The fact anyone walks the face of this earth who has sinne3d against God is but by the grace of God.


But he does not do this. What he does is show us who he is, convict us of our sin, convict us of his righteousness and his justice. and show us his plan of salvation.

we then have to chose what we will believe. Our own sinful nature or his divine nature.

​

This was spoken to paul long after paul was saved. and was pauls answer to remove a thorn in the flesh..

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to [b]buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me

God does not have to do this, God has the power to teach people. why do you deny the power of God and put it back in a persons hands?


But that is not how it works. Man already knows of God and his power. and already knows they are rightly judged. God gave them over to a depraved mind, denying not only the creation but the creator. thus they have no excuse.

Romans 1 explains this in great detail

So...when God "came down" to rescue, deliver and redeem the ancient Hebrews from Pharaoh's power, that was not a gracious act of God since he exerted great power against the Egyptians to accomplish his purpose? If not a gracious act, then how would you characterize God's redemption of his chosen people?

 

[Rufus]

Not remove. " Suppresses. " Thus ... making one's soul able to choose.

Without that control of grace over our depravity in our flesh no one could believe.

The soul is not the body. And, the body is not the soul.
But the flesh will dominate over the soul unless God's power of grace suppresses the flesh.

The "flesh" also denotes the sin nature. But you are correct: God's grace must "suppress" over overcome the sin nature in order for a person to have heartfelt faith.

 

[Genez]

The "flesh" also denotes the sin nature. But you are correct: God's grace must "suppress" over overcome the sin nature in order for a person to have heartfelt faith.

The sin nature resides in our flesh.
It was through procreation that Adam passed down to all the fallen nature which is in the body, not our soul.

Romans 5:12​

​

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, ​

and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.​

​

When it says... "because all sinned?"

The Greek states that it was in one point in time that we all sinned.
For when Adam sinned? Adam sealed our fate of all mankind, all being born with fallen bodies.

 

[homwardbound]

The sin nature resides in our flesh.
It was through procreation that Adam passed down to all the fallen nature which is in the body, not our soul.

Romans 5:12​

​

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, ​

and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.​

​

When it says... "because all sinned?"

The Greek states that it was in one point in time that we all sinned.
For when Adam sinned? Adam sealed our fate of all mankind, all being born with fallen bodies.

‘therefore, no flesh will ever please God, but Son’s that has done it for us to be made alive, born again in God’s spirit and truth. No relying on first born flesh is my new habit, after practice first, on its way to characteristic, then trait. The way God views us once anyone sincerely chooses belief to God Father in risen Son for them the only perfect one ever to walk earth in flesh and blood as perfect
done, thank you Father
seeing the end of Romans 7 and the beginnings of Romans 8 wow Lord< thank you

 

[Rufus]

The sin nature resides in our flesh.
It was through procreation that Adam passed down to all the fallen nature which is in the body, not our soul.

Romans 5:12​

​

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, ​

and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.​

​

When it says... "because all sinned?"

The Greek states that it was in one point in time that we all sinned.
For when Adam sinned? Adam sealed our fate of all mankind, all being born with fallen bodies.

No! The sin nature resides in our hearts! This is why God gives his elect new hearts. He doesn't give us new skin coverings! There's nothing inherently evil with our skin. Jesus came into this world as a flesh and blood being. If the skin he wore was inherently evil then he was evil.

When Adam fell it ruined the ENTIRE man, not just his skin. And the entire man is body and soul.

Yes, we will get new, glorified bodies at the resurrection. But that's because our earthly bodies are not fit for eternity. The bodies we receive will be eternal and, therefore, fit to dwell with an eternal God for all eternity.

 

[Genez]

No! The sin nature resides in our hearts! This is why God gives his elect new hearts. He doesn't give us new skin coverings! There's nothing inherently evil with our skin. Jesus came into this world as a flesh and blood being. If the skin he wore was inherently evil then he was evil.

When Adam fell it ruined the ENTIRE man, not just his skin. And the entire man is body and soul.

Yes, we will get new, glorified bodies at the resurrection. But that's because our earthly bodies are not fit for eternity. The bodies we receive will be eternal and, therefore, fit to dwell with an eternal God for all eternity.

The new heart. Heart = kardia. It's where we have thought out and concluded our convictions and conclusions. Our old heart was transformed into our new heart by grace and truth.

Old heart is where we once based everything according to our sin nature's inclinations and the world's thinking.

 

[homwardbound]

The new heart. Heart = kardia. It's where we have thought out and concluded our convictions and conclusions. Our old heart was transformed into our new heart by grace and truth.

Old heart is where we once based everything according to our sin nature's inclinations and the world's thinking.

Ezekiel 36:26
a new Heart God gives in place of the stony Heart, that is done as a gift in risen Son for us to stand in, at least me, this I now see after much hard work trying to sort it all out. Then God revealed I needed to stop , quit, cede and stand in trust to God throughrisen Son. I did and saw rest as talked of Hebrews 4:9-13 wow, as in Isaiah 6:1-7 God does it, only if one will believe God in the gift thankfully at least for me

 

[Genez]

Ezekiel 36:26
a new Heart God gives in place of the stony Heart, that is done as a gift in risen Son for us to stand in, at least me, this I now see after much hard work trying to sort it all out. Then God revealed I needed to stop , quit, cede and stand in trust to God throughrisen Son. I did and saw rest as talked of Hebrews 4:9-13 wow, as in Isaiah 6:1-7 God does it, only if one will believe God in the gift thankfully at least for me

The heart is the part of our mind where we hold our faith, values, and convictions.

“As a man thinks in his heart, so is he."

Prov 23:7a


.​

 

[Rufus]

The new heart. Heart = kardia. It's where we have thought out and concluded our convictions and conclusions. Our old heart was transformed into our new heart by grace and truth.

Old heart is where we once based everything according to our sin nature's inclinations and the world's thinking.

Do you know where the precious gift of the Holy Spirit lives? He does not live in or under our skin that hangs off our bones. He actually lives and empowers us in our HEARTS -- hearts that once were totally depraved, full of evil!

2 Cor 1:21-22
21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
NIV

So...God MAKES us stand firm in Christ, which means a true believer will never fall. We may stumble because we're still sinners in this life, but we will never finally and irrevocably fall. All true Christians will persevere in the faith -- because God actually does save his people.

And God's power enables us to stand firm in Christ because he has put his Spirit in our hearts. We do actually experience God's power (grace) working in our lives. And here's more proof of what I just wrote:

Rom 8:9
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
NIV

And yet, there are people here (e.g. EG) who would vehemently deny that such existential controlling action is gracious in nature. They don't want to see and acknowledge that God's grace is more than just favor -- it's also power that God's people experience. And they would see such controlling work as God forcing his will upon his helpless, weak, vulnerable sheep. But there others of us who praise an thank our gracious Lord and Savior for his proactive, enabling grace.

 

[Rufus]

The heart is the part of our mind where we hold our faith, values, and convictions.

“As a man thinks in his heart, so is he."

Prov 23:7a


.​

But it's also much more than than just the rational part of us, i.e. faculty of mind. What about about our emotions, conscience and volition? Man is more than just intellect.

 

[Genez]

But it's also much more than than just the rational part of us, i.e. faculty of mind. What about about our emotions, conscience and volition? Man is more than just intellect.

Man is more than just intellect?
The heart determines how our emotions, conscience and volition respond to a given situation.
They are all ruled by the heart.

Man is not just the heart (the cardia).
He is also the nous (mind) that feeds the intellect.

Two different things.

​

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart ​

and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ Matthew 22:37​

​

You failed to differentiate between the heart and 'intellect as the Bible does.'​

.

 

[Rufus]

Tonight I'm reading this devotional from Charles Spurgeon:

"He shall take of Mine, and shall show it unto you."
John 16:15

There are times when all the promises and doctrines of the Bible are of no avail, unless a gracious hand shall apply them to us. We are thirsty, but too faint to crawl to the water- brook. When a soldier is wounded in battle it is of little use for him to know that there are those at the hospital who can bind up his wounds, and medicines there to ease all the pains which he now suffers: what he needs is to be carried thither, and to have the remedies applied. It is thus with our souls, and to meet this need there is one, even the Spirit of truth, who takes of the things of Jesus, and applies them to us. Think not that Christ hath placed His joys on heavenly shelves that we may climb up to them for ourselves, but He draws near, and sheds His peace abroad in our hearts. O Christian, if thou art to-night labouring under deep distresses, thy Father does not give thee promises and then leave thee to draw them up from the Word like buckets from a well, but the promises He has written in the Word He will write anew on your heart. He will manifest His love to you, and by His blessed Spirit, dispel your cares and troubles. Be it known unto thee, O mourner, that it is God's prerogative to wipe every tear from the eye of His people. The good Samaritan did not say, "Here is the wine, and here is the oil for you"; he actually poured in the oil and the wine. So Jesus not only gives you the sweet wine of the promise, but holds the golden chalice to your lips, and pours the life-blood into your mouth. The poor, sick, way-worn pilgrim is not merely strengthened to walk, but he is borne on eagles' wings. Glorious gospel! which provides everything for the helpless, which draws nigh to us when we cannot reach after it--brings us grace before we seek for grace! Here is as much glory in the giving as in the gift. Happy people who have the Holy Ghost to bring Jesus to them.

What a precious truth this is! It goes to the heart of what I wrote earlier about God's powerful grace being proactive.

 

[Rufus]

Man is more than just intellect?
The heart determines how our emotions, conscience and volition respond to a given situation.
They are all ruled by the heart.

Man is not just the heart (the cardia).
He is also the nous (mind) that feeds the intellect.

Two different things.

​

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart ​

and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ Matthew 22:37​

​

You failed to differentiate between the heart and 'intellect as the Bible does.'​

.

What Jesus is saying is that man must love God with ALL his being -- and the mind is not all of man's being, otherwise the text would not have mentioned soul and heart.. Man is created in God's image which means he, like God, has mind, emotions, conscience and volition. And the first three of these attributes are what drive the will. Did not Jesus weep over Lazarus' death? Is not sorrow an emotional expression? Did not Jesus feel anger when overturned the tables in the temple? Is not anger primarily an emotional expression? Now...I'm not saying that Jesus' mind was not engaged in these things but so was his passions and his mind and passions moved him to respond to these different experiences. Even in the case of the temple events, he did so with a clear conscience; for he was righteously zealous for his Father's temple, so he did not hesitate to express his righteous anger.

Or when we are told in scripture that we must believe the gospel message with our heart -- it's saying that true faith is more than mental ascent. The heart is the CENTER of man's being -- and what makes man an image-bearer of God is that, again, he consists of mind, emotion, conscience and will. Any entity that is less than all of these is not a human being. This is why such emphasis is placed on the heart in scripture. God didn't give us just a new mind under the New Covenant promise, but a new heart! A new mind alone would not have sufficed because man is more than intellect alone.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Paul said this.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​

rest on me. 2 Cor 12:9​

​

He is not equating his power with Grace. His power is what empowers us.​

​

​

Paul said, God's grace is power. Unmerited favor is catch phrase that has become tradition because the Greek word for grace can indicate several meanings. But, Paul said its God's power for us to overcome weakness and helplessness.

Um No paul did not say this. Gods love is what empower us, we love because he first loved us, Grace is a part of Gods love, based on the death of Christ. which is offered to all mankind,.

God's grace power can take a believer out of the realm of being controlled by the flesh.

​

You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. ​

And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." Romans 8:9​

​

Anything can be argued about. Paul says that God's grace is His power. And, that power controls the believer who walks in the Spirit.

Gods love.

Even Jesus said the two greatest commands are love. In these two commands are all of the law and prophets.

Grace is what I said it what. And is based on the power of Gods love.