The rapture? The comimg of Christ.

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hi @tttallison , CONSIDER what I've put below (below your comments that I've quoted here):

No, that translation was not faithful to the text of the Received Text.

Another false premise is believing that you can work with a translation that is a product of the Vatican manuscript and come up with truth.

If you look at the "blueletterbible" LINK I had provided in my Post #185, you will find the words:



TEXTUS RECEPTUS
7:14 καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ Κύριέ σὺ οἶδας καὶ εἶπέν μοι Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν στολὰς αὐτῶν ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου


[bold mine]




[where the 2 "τῆς" are the definite article "THE" in that verse... as I had pointed out in that post]

Here again is that LINK: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/7/14/t_concif_1174014



[if it doesn't show up as a large box, with WITH THOSE WORDS I'M POINTING OUT, AT THE TOP, you may have to select "Tools"]




Here's what it says also, there:

"...you will find that the Textus Receptus scroll remains at the top for the KJV, NKJV, RVR, ASV, and RSV because these versions utilize the Textus Receptus as a basis for their translation work."




Again, like I said, the 2 "τῆς" ['THE'] shows up in all three of my hardcopy Interlinears at hand (which don't always agree, but they DO seem to, here, for this verse).



____________

Here's what I found at another LINK ( https://www.textusreceptusbibles.com/Interlinear/66007014 ) ... notice the words (2x in each example) "τῆς" ['THE'] are shown being in this verse:

Greek

Textus Receptus (Scrivener 1894)
και ειρηκα αυτω κυριε συ οιδας και ειπεν μοι ουτοι εισιν οι ερχομενοι εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης και επλυναν τας στολας αυτων και ελευκαναν αυτας εν τω αιματι του αρνιου


Textus Receptus (Elzevir 1624)
και ειρηκα αυτω κυριε συ οιδας και ειπεν μοι ουτοι εισιν οι ερχομενοι εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης και επλυναν τας στολας αυτων και ελευκαναν στολας αυτων εν τω αιματι του αρνιου


Textus Receptus (Beza 1598)
και ειρηκα αυτω κυριε συ οιδας και ειπεν μοι ουτοι εισιν οι ερχομενοι εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης και επλυναν τας στολας αυτων και ελευκαναν στολας αυτων εν τω αιματι του αρνιου


Textus Receptus (Stephanus 1550)
και ειρηκα αυτω κυριε συ οιδας και ειπεν μοι ουτοι εισιν οι ερχομενοι εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης και επλυναν τας στολας αυτων και ελευκαναν στολας αυτων εν τω αιματι του αρνιου


Byzantine Majority Text 2000
και ειπον αυτω κυριε μου συ οιδας και ειπεν μοι ουτοι εισιν οι ερχομενοι εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης και επλυναν τας στολας αυτων και ελευκαναν αυτας εν τω αιματι του αρνιου


Byzantine Majority Text (Family 35)
και ειπον αυτω κυριε μου συ οιδας και ειπεν μοι ουτοι εισιν οι ερχομενοι εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης και επλυναν τας στολας αυτων και ελευκαναν αυτας εν τω αιματι του αρνιου


Textus Receptus New Testament Variants [from how I'm reading this section, it is not pointing out any "variant" regarding the particular word/words under present discussion]

Textus Receptus (TR),
Byzantine Majority Text (BM),
Alexandrian Text (Ax)

και BM ειπον TR/Ax ειρηκα αυτω κυριε BM/Ax μου συ οιδας και BM ειπε TR/Ax ειπεν μοι ουτοι εισιν οι ερχομενοι εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης και επλυναν τας στολας αυτων και ελευκαναν BM αυτας TR(1894)/Ax αυτας TR(1550) στολας TR(1550) αυτων εν τω αιματι του αρνιου



[and another page from that site, to view: https://www.textusreceptusbibles.com/Revelation_Textus_Receptus ]



So please point out where I'm mistaken regarding the "Textus Receptus" (having the 2 "τῆς" ['THE'] in this verse).
Thanks.

 

[tttallison]

Hi all,
Instead of getting into the yes and no's concerning a rapture, I would like to talk about how do we treat each other respectfully, without condemning, and without trying 'prove' our interpretation. And where and when do you draw a line, and what does that look like? As long as our differences are not on fundamental subjects, we can still have fellowship together. We may also choose to distance with one another (for instance leaving a congregation). I suppose there is a lot of things we can disagree on, and be a cause for separation (as church history has proven). In this context I believe verses on the subject of 'sacrificial meat' and freedom when convinced in your own mind apply, not causing offence, or another to lose faith, bickering over scriptural truths and I suspect, many more.
I am not being judgemental about things written in this post, I believe we should consider everything, and keep the good. Myself I have read, pondered and prayed long before I could come to a partial understanding on the subject of rapture and other subjects.
Still, I find it difficult at times to not find offense (feel hurt) when I encounter convictions that are not my own.
I do express my different understanding when the situation allows, but do not elaborate when nobody asks, when what is being said is not being forced upon me. I am curious how others handle situations like this or think we should.

Personal attacks should always be off the table. We should always be kind. I believe truth should be a number one priority. We should be able to back up that which we believe to be truth with facts, and not someone else's opinion. If someone has crooked teeth, and that is an obvious fact, it would be wrong to bring that to the attention of the person unless you were willing to help them correct the problem. People might become offended if you tell them Jesus is the only way to heaven. You must tell them, or you might be guilty of their blood.

 

[tttallison]

Hi @tttallison , CONSIDER what I've put below (below your comments that I've quoted here):






If you look at the "blueletterbible" LINK I had provided in my Post #185, you will find the words:



TEXTUS RECEPTUS
7:14 καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ Κύριέ σὺ οἶδας καὶ εἶπέν μοι Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν στολὰς αὐτῶν ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου


[bold mine]




[where the 2 "τῆς" are the definite article "THE" in that verse... as I had pointed out in that post]

Here again is that LINK: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/7/14/t_concif_1174014



[if it doesn't show up as a large box, with WITH THOSE WORDS I'M POINTING OUT, AT THE TOP, you may have to select "Tools"]




Here's what it says also, there:

"...you will find that the Textus Receptus scroll remains at the top for the KJV, NKJV, RVR, ASV, and RSV because these versions utilize the Textus Receptus as a basis for their translation work."




Again, like I said, the 2 "τῆς" ['THE'] shows up in all three of my hardcopy Interlinears at hand (which don't always agree, but they DO seem to, here, for this verse).



____________

Here's what I found at another LINK ( https://www.textusreceptusbibles.com/Interlinear/66007014 ) ... notice the words (2x in each example) "τῆς" ['THE'] are shown being in this verse:

Greek

Textus Receptus (Scrivener 1894)
και ειρηκα αυτω κυριε συ οιδας και ειπεν μοι ουτοι εισιν οι ερχομενοι εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης και επλυναν τας στολας αυτων και ελευκαναν αυτας εν τω αιματι του αρνιου


Textus Receptus (Elzevir 1624)
και ειρηκα αυτω κυριε συ οιδας και ειπεν μοι ουτοι εισιν οι ερχομενοι εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης και επλυναν τας στολας αυτων και ελευκαναν στολας αυτων εν τω αιματι του αρνιου


Textus Receptus (Beza 1598)
και ειρηκα αυτω κυριε συ οιδας και ειπεν μοι ουτοι εισιν οι ερχομενοι εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης και επλυναν τας στολας αυτων και ελευκαναν στολας αυτων εν τω αιματι του αρνιου


Textus Receptus (Stephanus 1550)
και ειρηκα αυτω κυριε συ οιδας και ειπεν μοι ουτοι εισιν οι ερχομενοι εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης και επλυναν τας στολας αυτων και ελευκαναν στολας αυτων εν τω αιματι του αρνιου


Byzantine Majority Text 2000
και ειπον αυτω κυριε μου συ οιδας και ειπεν μοι ουτοι εισιν οι ερχομενοι εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης και επλυναν τας στολας αυτων και ελευκαναν αυτας εν τω αιματι του αρνιου


Byzantine Majority Text (Family 35)
και ειπον αυτω κυριε μου συ οιδας και ειπεν μοι ουτοι εισιν οι ερχομενοι εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης και επλυναν τας στολας αυτων και ελευκαναν αυτας εν τω αιματι του αρνιου


Textus Receptus New Testament Variants [from how I'm reading this section, it is not pointing out any "variant" regarding the particular word/words under present discussion]

Textus Receptus (TR),
Byzantine Majority Text (BM),
Alexandrian Text (Ax)

και BM ειπον TR/Ax ειρηκα αυτω κυριε BM/Ax μου συ οιδας και BM ειπε TR/Ax ειπεν μοι ουτοι εισιν οι ερχομενοι εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης και επλυναν τας στολας αυτων και ελευκαναν BM αυτας TR(1894)/Ax αυτας TR(1550) στολας TR(1550) αυτων εν τω αιματι του αρνιου



[and another page from that site, to view: https://www.textusreceptusbibles.com/Revelation_Textus_Receptus ]



So please point out where I'm mistaken regarding the "Textus Receptus" (having the 2 "τῆς" ['THE'] in this verse).
Thanks.

I have always trusted strongs numbers.

Here is the reading I have for
Rev 7:14 And G2532 I said G2046 unto him, G846 Sir, G2962 thou G4771 knowest. G1492 And G2532 he said G2036 to me, G3427 These G3778 are they G1526 which came G2064 out of G1537 great G3173 tribulation, G2347 and G2532 have washed G4150 their G846 robes, G4749 and G2532 made G3021 ➔ them G4749 G846 white G3021 in G1722 the blood G129 of the Lamb. G721

 

[cv5]

I have always trusted strongs numbers.

Here is the reading I have for
Rev 7:14 And G2532 I said G2046 unto him, G846 Sir, G2962 thou G4771 knowest. G1492 And G2532 he said G2036 to me, G3427 These G3778 are they G1526 which came G2064 out of G1537 great G3173 tribulation, G2347 and G2532 have washed G4150 their G846 robes, G4749 and G2532 made G3021 ➔ them G4749 G846 white G3021 in G1722 the blood G129 of the Lamb. G721

But can you read them?

 

[tttallison]

But can you read them?

What are you referring to as them?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I have always trusted strongs numbers.

Here is the reading I have for
Rev 7:14 And G2532 I said G2046 unto him, G846 Sir, G2962 thou G4771 knowest. G1492 And G2532 he said G2036 to me, G3427 These G3778 are they G1526 which came G2064 out of G1537 great G3173 tribulation, G2347 and G2532 have washed G4150 their G846 robes, G4749 and G2532 made G3021 ➔ them G4749 G846 white G3021 in G1722 the blood G129 of the Lamb. G721

At Blueletterbible, they do not always show the "G3588 [THE]" word/number (on the face page) even when the kjv DOES acknowledge it in the text (IOW, the kjv doesn't italicize [in your Bible] the ones I am pointing out ^ in the verse [your example], because they acknowledge it IS in the text... It's just that BLB doesn't take the time [on the face page] to place the number "G3588" for EVERY "THE" that they DO acknowledge IS in the text... if that makes sense. lol)


Once you open the "TOOLS," that's where you'll see the "G3588 [THE]" words being labeled (note the ones I've pointed out, by ENLARGING them in your example ^ )... but BLB does not label all of [or, any of??] the "G3588 [THE]" words (where they are in the text) on their face page, for some reason... even when the kjv shows it in the text (iow, when the kjv translators believe it belongs there).


I jokingly call the face page (at BLB) the lazy copy, only because it doesn't show (accurately) WHERE the kjv indeed has the "G3588 [THE]" word but they haven't LABELED it there, as such... I'm really not sure why, but it doesn't matter, because the "TOOLS" feature SHOWS it.





____________

Romans 8:19 is another example... where BLB doesn't LABEL the "G3588 [THE]" words (on their FACE page), even though the kjv doesn't italicize the "the"'s (lol), acknowledging they ones they see in the text:

[BLB] "For G1063 the earnest expectation G603 of the creature G2937 waiteth G553 for the manifestation G602 of the sons G5207 of God. G2316 " [bold and underline mine, to show how BLB's "face page" does NOT LABEL "G3588" where they actually are, in the text]


[but notice at the TOOLS LINK, if it opens at LINK, (they ARE there "G3588") - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rom/8/19/ss1/t_concf_1054019 ]




See what I mean?

 

[cv5]

I have always trusted strongs numbers.

Here is the reading I have for
Rev 7:14 And G2532 I said G2046 unto him, G846 Sir, G2962 thou G4771 knowest. G1492 And G2532 he said G2036 to me, G3427 These G3778 are they G1526 which came G2064 out of G1537 great G3173 tribulation, G2347 and G2532 have washed G4150 their G846 robes, G4749 and G2532 made G3021 ➔ them G4749 G846 white G3021 in G1722 the blood G129 of the Lamb. G721

 

[cv5]

What are you referring to as them?

The 2 "τῆς" ['THE'] in this verse.

 

[cv5]

What are you referring to as them?

Who are them there elders? And when are them there elders?

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[tttallison]

View attachment 268889

Have to get back to you. Need to do my homework.

 

[tttallison]

The 2 "τῆς" ['THE'] in this verse.

Getting back to you cv5.

Like I said before my Bible does not have "the"(G3588) in front of great tribulation. My Bible does have G3588 three times in Revelation 4:17.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which G3588 came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the G3588 blood of the G3588 Lamb.

The Alexandrian Text as found in Codex Sinaitcus and Codex Vaticanus is similar to what you presented with "the tribulation the great".

 

[Koolhaasje]

Personal attacks should always be off the table. We should always be kind. I believe truth should be a number one priority. We should be able to back up that which we believe to be truth with facts, and not someone else's opinion. If someone has crooked teeth, and that is an obvious fact, it would be wrong to bring that to the attention of the person unless you were willing to help them correct the problem. People might become offended if you tell them Jesus is the only way to heaven. You must tell them, or you might be guilty of their blood.

Thank you tttallison. Yes, we should always be kind.
You all can imagen how unkind it seems when someone tells you 'you will burn in hell' because you cannot see Jesus as your only savior. Or how forcefully it may seem when someone keeps repeating Jesus is the only way (which is true) when they have not been touched by God. I believe we must endeavor to be 'all to all men' (1cor 9:20) and rather by our behavior towards them show His love, not so much by words. God is the only one that can lift the veil. As for all interpretations and proving truth to each other, holding on to whatever it is that we think we need to hold on to Him, this last is truly all that is needed. Hold on to Him, look to Him, share all, give all, a personal relationship that takes a lifetime (luckily He never lets go). We do not need to understand everything, yes, dilligently search scripture, but to let Him speak to us personally, not to prove our own point.
And that's a tough one for us humans!
Jesus is the only way, also for us believers

 

[Koolhaasje]

Now, as I am only human, i would like to share something i encountered when examining the subject of this post.
It concerns 1 Thess 4:17, meeting Him in the air;
In old times it was customary for a bride to meet the Bridegroom when he was coming for her, and accompany him on the last part of his journey.
I do not pretend to know anything much about the subject, but found this bit of information very interesting. It shows to me how important it is to examine the circumstances in which scriptures were written.

 

[tttallison]

Thank you tttallison. Yes, we should always be kind.
You all can imagen how unkind it seems when someone tells you 'you will burn in hell' because you cannot see Jesus as your only savior. Or how forcefully it may seem when someone keeps repeating Jesus is the only way (which is true) when they have not been touched by God. I believe we must endeavor to be 'all to all men' (1cor 9:20) and rather by our behavior towards them show His love, not so much by words. God is the only one that can lift the veil. As for all interpretations and proving truth to each other, holding on to whatever it is that we think we need to hold on to Him, this last is truly all that is needed. Hold on to Him, look to Him, share all, give all, a personal relationship that takes a lifetime (luckily He never lets go). We do not need to understand everything, yes, dilligently search scripture, but to let Him speak to us personally, not to prove our own point.
And that's a tough one for us humans!
Jesus is the only way, also for us believers

Sometimes we pussyfoot too much at the expense of truth. Take the example of Jesus and paul.

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Tit 1:9-14 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

 

[Koolhaasje]

Sometimes we pussyfoot too much at the expense of truth. Take the example of Jesus and paul.

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Tit 1:9-14 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Yes, however we might be less quick to refer to these verses when we read them in context. Sadly i have often encountered the use of verses like these as an excuse to be cruel.

As I understand it, in Matthew 23:33, Jesus was speaking to the Farisees. Those who burden others with more rules and laws

Mat 15:26, Jesus was in the company of people that were familiar with teachings of the Farisees that considered all non-Jews to be dogs, or less. Jesus knew very well what the woman, in all humility, would answer Him.

The sharp rebuking in Tit1:9-14 was addressed to those of the 'circumcision', those heeding commandments of men.

It takes a lot to communicate in love, and I know we all fail, me too. Only when we remain in Him can we do this. Now that's another subject we could talk about on this forum

 

[tttallison]

[but notice at the TOOLS LINK, if it opens at LINK, (they ARE there "G3588") - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rom/8/19/ss1/t_concf_1054019 ]See what I mean?

I see what you mean. My tools bar for Rev. 7:14 has a list of all the Greeks words that they acknowledge are there.

English (KJV) [?]

Strong's​

Inflected,
Root &
Transliterated

​

Parsing [?]​

And

g2532​

καὶ καίkai

CONJ​

I said
PHRASE

g2046​

εἴρηκα ἐρέωereō

V-RAI-1S-ATT​

unto him,
PHRASE

g846​

αὐτῷ αὐτόςautos

P-DSM​

Sir,

g2962​

Κύριέ κύριοςkyrios

N-VSM​

thou

g4771​

σὺ σύsy

P-2NS​

knowest.

g1492​

οἶδας εἴδωeidō

V-RAI-2S​

And

g2532​

καὶ καίkai

CONJ​

he said
PHRASE

g2036​

εἶπέν εἶπονeipon

V-2AAI-3S​

to me,
PHRASE

g3427​

μοι μοιmoi

P-1DS​

These

g3778​

Οὗτοί οὗτοςhoutos

D-NPM​

are they
PHRASE

g1526​

εἰσιν εἰσίeisi

V-PXI-3P​

which

g3588​

οἱ ὁho

T-NPM​

came

g2064​

ἐρχόμενοι ἔρχομαιerchomai

V-PNP-NPM​

out of
PHRASE

g1537​

ἐκ ἐκek

PREP​

great

g3173​

μεγάλης μέγαςmegas

A-GSF​

tribulation,

g2347​

θλίψεως θλῖψιςthlipsis

N-GSF​

and

g2532​

καὶ καίkai

CONJ​

have washed
PHRASE

g4150​

ἔπλυναν πλύνωplynō

V-AAI-3P​

their

g846​

αὐτῶν αὐτόςautos

P-GPM​

robes,

g4749​

στολὰς στολήstolē

N-APF​

and

g2532​

καὶ καίkai

CONJ​

made

g3021 ↓​

ἐλεύκαναν λευκαίνωleukainō

V-AAI-3P​

them

g846​

αὐτῶν αὐτόςautos

P-GPM​

white

g3021 ↑​

ἐλεύκαναν λευκαίνωleukainō

V-AAI-3P​

in

g1722​

ἐν ἐνen

PREP​

the

g3588​

τῷ ὁho

T-DSN​

blood

g129​

αἵματι αἷμαhaima

N-DSN​

of the
PHRASE

g3588​

τοῦ ὁho

T-GSN​

Lamb.

g721​

ἀρνίου ἀρνίονarnion

Notice that G3588 occurs threes times, but not before great. This is the entire set of Greeks words that the Kings James recognized. The NKJB did alter the reading.

 

[tttallison]

In order to support a 7-year tribulation period you have to take what God appointed to Jesus and give it to Satan. Are you comfortable with that?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

@tttallison , @TheDivineWatermark , @cv5 - Hi folks, I see that you're debating whether "the" was included in that Bible verse. What is the significance of whether it is there or not? I just don't get it?


🐨

 

[tttallison]

@tttallison , @TheDivineWatermark , @cv5 - Hi folks, I see that you're debating whether "the" was included in that Bible verse. What is the significance of whether it is there or not? I just don't get it?


🐨

We are appointed unto tribulation. What the "the" does is to point to a specific tribulation, as opposed to a general one. A seven year tribulation period is specific. When you add "the" to "great tribulation" you then are able to point to it and say the scripture supports a seven year tribulation period, because it points to a specific tribulation.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

We are appointed unto tribulation. What the "the" does is to point to a specific tribulation, as opposed to a general one. A seven year tribulation period is specific. When you add "the" to "great tribulation" you then are able to point to it and say the scripture supports a seven year tribulation period, because it points to a specific tribulation.

Would it matter which great tribulation the Christians in this passage came from, whether it is the general tribulations or the more specific great tribulation before the Lord returns?


🐨