I was wondering who believes you can get unsaved.

[Magenta]

God initiates; man cooperates--or not.

John 6:37 plus John 10:28

Right. What determines whether man cooperates?

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

 

[Cameron143]

John 6:37 plus John 10:28


All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

And He gives them eternal life and they will never perish. And nothing can separate them from the love of God in Christ Jesus. But...somehow...some are escape artists who can pry open the hands of God, spiritually separate themselves from Christ, be unborn from above, and all without breaking a spiritual sweat.

 

[Magenta]

And He gives them eternal life and they will never perish. And nothing can separate them from the love of God in Christ Jesus. But...somehow...some are escape artists who can pry open the hands of God, spiritually separate themselves from Christ, be unborn from above, and all without breaking a spiritual sweat.

Oh, I know!

 

[psalms22]

No we won't. 2000 years of history proves that.

we all miss one thing.. when we believe in jesus with our hearts jesus said we have eternal life this promise means Romans 6:14 (ESV) - “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.” i could add many more verses but just study this and remember Romans 4:3 (ESV) - “For what does the Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.’” through our faith we are saved now and for ever the free gift of our savior.....

 

[GWH]

No we won't. 2000 years of history proves that.

Yes, but God's peace plan (EPH 2:14-18) remains in effect until the end, and peacemaking (MT 5:9) is a blessed endeavor.

 

[GWH]

Right. What determines whether man cooperates?

God determines that normal human adults have moral free will so that they are accountable for freely choosing to cooperate with His Word/Will--or not. Unfortunately A&E and everyone after them has chosen not (RM 3:23) but may be forgiven if they repent and learn to choose to (RM 3:24).

 

[NightTwister]

we all miss one thing.. when we believe in jesus with our hearts jesus said we have eternal life this promise means Romans 6:14 (ESV) - “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.” i could add many more verses but just study this and remember Romans 4:3 (ESV) - “For what does the Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.’” through our faith we are saved now and for ever the free gift of our savior.....

Huh?

 

[Cameron143]

God determines that normal human adults have moral free will so that they are accountable for freely choosing to cooperate with His Word/Will--or not. Unfortunately A&E and everyone after them has chosen not (RM 3:23) but may be forgiven if they repent and learn to choose to (RM 3:24).

Adam and Eve had freewill until they sinned. After, they were first a slave to sin, and later freed by Christ when He shed blood on their behalf and clothed them symbolically in His righteousness.
Fallen man is not a free moral agent. He can choose, but his choices are governed by his nature. If he was a free moral agent, this would not be so.

 

[GWH]

Adam and Eve had freewill until they sinned. After, they were first a slave to sin, and later freed by Christ when He shed blood on their behalf and clothed them symbolically in His righteousness.
Fallen man is not a free moral agent. He can choose, but his choices are governed by his nature. If he was a free moral agent, this would not be so.

If sinners are not free to repent, then Jesus wasted his breath and God is hateful.

 

[Cameron143]

If sinners are not free to repent, then Jesus wasted his breath and God is hateful.

That's certainly one view, but it stems from a misunderstanding of who God is and what His ways are. Both statements are categorically false concerning God and Jesus. Your understanding of scripture and of God simply disallows reconciliation of the verses.

 

[GWH]

That's certainly one view, but it stems from a misunderstanding of who God is and what His ways are. Both statements are categorically false concerning God and Jesus. Your understanding of scripture and of God simply disallows reconciliation of the verses.

There are a lot more verses to reconcile with your understanding, including those below that I have cited before.

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.” (Cf. LK 11:24-26)

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

 

[Cameron143]

There are a lot more verses to reconcile with your understanding, including those below that I have cited before.

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.” (Cf. LK 11:24-26)

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Again, some are descriptive. Others are commands. So how do you keep yourself in God's love? Please be specific. List all the things you must do to keep yourself in God's love.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Again, some are descriptive. Others are commands. So how do you keep yourself in God's love? Please be specific. List all the things you must do to keep yourself in God's love.

If you don't want to do that, you're welcome not to. But why discourage someone who wants to? It does say in the Bible to do that. That verse is even in his post:

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

🧇

 

[Cameron143]

If you don't want to do that, you're welcome not to. But why discourage someone who wants to? It does say in the Bible to do that. That verse is even in his post:






🧇

I think it's important if someone says something is required of another that they should also be responsible to make sure others understand exactly what is involved in doing what they say is required. Otherwise, how will someone know they are doing all that is required.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I think it's important if someone says something is required of another that they should also be responsible to make sure others understand exactly what is involved in doing what they say is required. Otherwise, how will someone know they are doing all that is required.

I honestly don't get the impression that you actually want to learn anything though. You just keep asking questions until the person is too tired to reply back.

Because you've done this to other people before time and again - you ask the same questions over and over and NEVER accept the valid answers given and just ask more questions. People can just look up your posting history to see this is true.

You're basically that person in the Bible who is "always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth" (2 Timothy 3:7).

​

🧇

 

[Magenta]

Adam and Eve had freewill until they sinned. After, they were first a slave to sin, and later freed by
Christ when He shed blood on their behalf and clothed them symbolically in His righteousness.

None of that is in the Bible.

 

[Cameron143]

I honestly don't get the impression that you actually want to learn anything though. You just keep asking questions until the person is too tired to reply back.

Because you've done this to other people before time and again - you ask the same questions over and over and NEVER accept the valid answers given and just ask more questions. People can just look up your posting history to see this is true.

You're basically that person in the Bible who is "always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth" (2 Timothy 3:7).

​

🧇

You are right that I ask questions for a reason. I did so because not you or anyone else can give a complete list of things that will insure that someone endures to the end. So how do you know if you have endured to the end? And even if you had a list, who is able to keep every item perfectly continuously? You would end up doing the same thing the Pharisees did with the law. Your requirements would be nothing more than a bunch of do's and don'ts, and you would place yourself back under the law rather than grace.
That was the point of my questions: that the very thing one should wish to avoid they end up advocating for. That's not evidence of always learning but never coming to truth, as you suggested. It's actually bearing long with others that they come to understanding.

John 3:16 tells of the great love of God that brings eternal life. John 17:3 says eternal life consists in knowing God and Christ. John 20:31 says the gospel was written to bring about belief and life. And 1 John 5:13 says we can know we possess this life. Having this assurance confirmed to an individual is the sealing God provides His people. Why wouldn't one want everyone to experience this?

 

[Cameron143]

None of that is in the Bible.

I believe every bit of it can be demonstrated from scripture.

 

[Magenta]

I believe every bit of it can be demonstrated from scripture.

They did not eat from the Tree of Life... and their nature was such that their offspring were born as children of wrath.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

You are right that I ask questions for a reason. I did so because not you or anyone else can give a complete list of things that will insure that someone endures to the end. So how do you know if you have endured to the end? And even if you had a list, who is able to keep every item perfectly continuously? You would end up doing the same thing the Pharisees did with the law. Your requirements would be nothing more than a bunch of do's and don'ts, and you would place yourself back under the law rather than grace.
That was the point of my questions: that the very thing one should wish to avoid they end up advocating for. That's not evidence of always learning but never coming to truth, as you suggested. It's actually bearing long with others that they come to understanding.

John 3:16 tells of the great love of God that brings eternal life. John 17:3 says eternal life consists in knowing God and Christ. John 20:31 says the gospel was written to bring about belief and life. And 1 John 5:13 says we can know we possess this life. Having this assurance confirmed to an individual is the sealing God provides His people. Why wouldn't one want everyone to experience this?

Such fine, high-sounding words. But people just have to look at your posting history to see that is not your aim. You just want to keep asking questions until people stop replying so it looks like you've "won".

I like @Pilgrimshope 's posts a lot. They are such a blessing! I always learn a lot or am reminded of what God has taught me and explains things so much better than I ever can. And he doesn't beat up other people with questions that exhaust them to silence.

You can learn from him.


🧇