Another look at John 10.

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#21
Nobody can come unless they are given by God to Jesus. All drawn will come. And this is the Father's will which
hath sent me, that of all which He hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#23
Not sinning is a good work and that will certainly keep you saved.
Jesus went to the cross so sin would no longer be an issue between you and God. He has reconciled you to Himself. So not sinning is awesome. But it has nothing to do with keeping you saved. We don't keep commandments to maintain our relationship with God. We keep them because we love Him. And we love Him because He first loved us.
 
Aug 25, 2024
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#24
The context surrounding a verse is so important. Verses are not little “islands”. Sitting all by themselves in a “sea” of words. The context of a passage is necessary to get a true understanding of the passage.

In John 10, Jesus is using an analogy of a shepherd and his sheep. Obviously, this analogy is about Jesus and His followers. His “sheep” follow him because they “know” Him. We understand these “sheep” are the “saved.” Jesus says no one, not “thieves, or robbers” in verses 1, 8, and 10. And not “strangers” in verse 5, and not “hirelings in verses 12 and 13. Can steal or take the sheep away from Him. Verse 29. This illustrates the security of the believer who follows the “good shepherd”, Christ. These verse are used as “proof” that a saved person can’t lose his salvation. But that isn’t what this passage is portraying. This IS about “sheep” getting STOLEN, not LEAVING! That is not the same thing. It is true that when a saved person is IN THE FOLD OF Christ, no one can STEAL them away. However, this story DOES NOT address the issue of a saved person LEAVING the fold of Christ; thus scripture only says they can’t be taken away by another person or some OUTSIDE force.

Here is another story told by Jesus that DOES teach the TRUTH about “can a saved person lose his salvation.” It’s in Luke 15:4-7. Again we are talking about “sheep” and the good shepherd. Christ.
“What man of you, having 100 sheep IF HE LOSES ONE OF THEM does not leave the 99 and go after THE ONE WHO IS LOST? SO Jesus CAN LOSE A SHEEP after all!! Did some “stranger” steal this sheep? NO! This speep LEFT OF HIS OWN FREE WILL. HE left the fold of Christ and HE WAS LOST—not just physically in this story—HE WAS LOST SPIRITUALLY! I know this because in verse 7 JESUS calls him A “SINNER WHO REPENTS” and identifies him as the one who was lost from the 99 others. This is proof that a child of God can leave God and be lost.
John 10 is not even talking about the same thing —much less “proof” that a saved person can’t leave Christ and be lost.


The Parable of the Lost Sheep
Matthew 18:10 “Take care that you do not despise one of these little ones; for, I tell you, in heaven their angels continually see the face of my Father in heaven. 12 What do you think? If a shepherd has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of your Father in heaven that one of these little ones should be lost.


Luke 15:1-7
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
15 Now all the tax collectors and sinners were coming near to listen to him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes were grumbling and saying, “This fellow welcomes sinners and eats with them.”
3 So he told them this parable: 4 “Which one of you, having a hundred sheep and losing one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the one that is lost until he finds it? 5 When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders and rejoices. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbours, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ 7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.


We can get lost from the secyrity of the sheepfold or wander from the Shepherd. He will not let us stay gone.

We are eternally his.
 
Feb 17, 2023
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#26
Not sinning is a good work and that will certainly keep you saved.

Just to clarify, if we submit to the Holy Spirit and not resist His work such that we end up not sinning, and let the Holy Spirit cause us to do the good works according to God's will and results in our obedience, then that's not our work, but the Lord's. And such a person can sustain obedience and not sin more continuously because it's done in His power.

So it's not so much about not sinning itself that keeps you saved, but that you have the Holy Spirit in your life and not resisting Him (not leaving Him) so that He is causing you not to sin that is keeping you saved.


🥙
 
Nov 1, 2024
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#28
Jesus went to the cross so sin would no longer be an issue between you and God. He has reconciled you to Himself. So not sinning is awesome. But it has nothing to do with keeping you saved. We don't keep commandments to maintain our relationship with God. We keep them because we love Him. And we love Him because He first loved us.
That's true and not true. Sin isn't an issue if we walk in the light, which requires acknowledging both to him and to ourselves our unrighteous nature and deeds so that we can be cleansed and remain in the light. If we walk after darkness we will perish

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:13-14
 
May 15, 2019
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#31
Nobody can come unless they are given by God to Jesus. All drawn will come. And this is the Father's will which
hath sent me, that of all which He hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jesus went to the cross so sin would no longer be an issue between you and God. He has reconciled you to Himself. So not sinning is awesome. But it has nothing to do with keeping you saved. We don't keep commandments to maintain our relationship with God. We keep them because we love Him. And we love Him because He first loved us.
You didn’t use any scripture that says what you are saying. Is this just your opinion? Specifically, “ We don’t keep commandments to maintain our relationship to God.” And “…not sinning has nothing to do with keeping us saved.” Scripture that teaches this?

I find this in Ezekiel: “If you warn the wicked to turn from his way (sins), and he does not turn from his way (sins), He shall die in his iniquity. 33:9. God was speaking to his chosen people, the Jews. Verse 7. And this in Isaiah 59:2- “your sin has separated you from your God.” To the children of God.

I John 3:4 says that sin is lawlessness. And in Matthew 7, Jesus refused to let those believers, who had done many mighty works in His name—into heaven because he said they had practiced “LAWLESSNESS.” Now where is this scripture that says “sin has nothing to do with keeping us saved?”
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#33
That's true and not true. Sin isn't an issue if we walk in the light, which requires acknowledging both to him and to ourselves our unrighteous nature and deeds so that we can be cleansed and remain in the light. If we walk after darkness we will perish

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:13-14
Are you led by the Spirit of God?
 
Jul 5, 2023
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Colorado, USA
#34
That's the goal. Justification (what people mistakenly call salvation) is a one-time thing; salvation is a life-long process of abiding in our sanctification.

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1 Timothy 4:16
Keep abiding (working). You're almost there!
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#35
Hebrews 10:29.
Ephesians 2:8-9.
Romans 15:13.
2 Timothy 1:7.
Do you believe you earned salvation?
Do you believe you can keep it by yourself?
The closing verses of Romans 8 goes through a list of things that cannot separate a believer from God. It concludes that nothing can separate a believer from the love of God in Christ Jesus. So how is it that you say something can?
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#36
But I thought you believed if it is a “work” it can’t be of “grace.”
No, I believe salvation is a gift from God that is accepted or rejected because God gives normal human adults moral free will that allows them to choose to believe--or not, and that saving faith is followed by good or loving works, although believers may have different gifts to exercise in the body of Christ. IOW, "What do you have that you did not receive" (1CR 4:7) includes every good grace/gift.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,757
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Oregon
cfbac.org
#38
.
Jesus has been tasked with tending a number of very special sheep.

John 10:29 . . My sheep . . my Father gave them to me

Jesus' Father expects His son to be conscientious about the sheep's safety.

John 6:39 . .This is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me.

Jesus never fails to give the One what He wants.

John 4:34 . . My food is to do the will of the One who sent me.

John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.

Now the thing is: were Jesus to lose even one of the sheep that his Father
entrusted to his care-- just one --then Jesus would not be able to say that
he "always" pleases the One who sent him. He could say that he pleases the
One most of the time, but certainly not always without fail.

People are actually casting a nay vote in regard to Jesus' competence when
they insist it's possible for him to lose some of the sheep that his Father
gave him. Were Christ an ordinary guy I would be inclined to agree with the
skeptics; but his miracles demonstrate that the good shepherd has all the
powers and abilities of the supreme being at his disposal to insure he
succeeds at keeping the sheep right where his Father wants them kept.

John 10:9 . . I am the door; whoever enters through me shall be saved.

Were Christ an ordinary guy; then he wouldn't dare say "shall be saved" no,
he'd have to tone it down a bit and say shall be safer instead of shall be
saved. That would leave him some room for error. But when Christ says
shall be saved, he's claiming a 0.0% failure rate. That's how confident Christ
is that he will lose nothing of those that the One gave him.

FAQ: Why can't the sheep change their minds about following Christ and
leave him to follow someone else?

REPLY: Animal husbandry isn't democratic, on the contrary: it's quite
despotic.

The thing is: a rancher's free will trumps his herd's free will; and the
rancher's brand burned into the animals' skins indelibly identify them with
their owner. So be advised: once someone makes the decision to unify with
Christ, they relinquish whatever sovereignty they had as a beast at large,
viz: they become Christ's property, and there's no going back because he
and his Father play for keeps. In other words: in order for the sheep to free
themselves from Christ, they would need to overpower not only him but his
Father also; which isn't likely.

John 10:28-29 . . No one can take them out of my hand-- my Father, who
has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one can take them out of
the Father's hand. I and my Father stand together.

1Cor 6:19-20 . .You are not your own; you were bought at a price.

Eph 1:13 . . In him you also-- who have heard the word of truth, the
gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him --were sealed with the
promised Holy Spirit.
_
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#39
You didn’t use any scripture that says what you are saying. Is this just your opinion? Specifically, “ We don’t keep commandments to maintain our relationship to God.” And “…not sinning has nothing to do with keeping us saved.” Scripture that teaches this?

I find this in Ezekiel: “If you warn the wicked to turn from his way (sins), and he does not turn from his way (sins), He shall die in his iniquity. 33:9. God was speaking to his chosen people, the Jews. Verse 7. And this in Isaiah 59:2- “your sin has separated you from your God.” To the children of God.

I John 3:4 says that sin is lawlessness. And in Matthew 7, Jesus refused to let those believers, who had done many mighty works in His name—into heaven because he said they had practiced “LAWLESSNESS.” Now where is this scripture that says “sin has nothing to do with keeping us saved?”
Your verses speak of the wicked. Where in scripture do you see saved people called wicked? Not all of Israel is of Israel. There was mostly only a remnant of the children of Israel who were saved. Those wicked were separated from God by their sin. The righteous were not.
If you take a closer look at Matthew 7, you will find that though sin did characterize their behavior, they were never saved. We know this because Jesus said He never knew them. Since eternal life is knowing the Father and the Son...John 17:3, they were never saved.
Romans 6:14 says we are no longer under the law, but under grace. We no longer relate to God on the basis of the law, but according to His grace. You already take advantage of this when you ask forgiveness of God. Do you sacrifice an animal when you ask forgiveness? Why not? The law calls for it. Before you worship do you go through rituals to purify yourself? Why not? The law calls for it. Instead, you live in the grace of God. And correctly so.

You live under a yoke of bondage if you are yoked to sin. You dwell in peace, and love, and power if you are yoked to Christ.