Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit

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Cameron143

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God's forgiveness is conditional upon repentance (MT 1:15), and HB 6:4-6 says it is impossible to bring those who commit apostasy "back to repentance".
Then forgiveness is not of grace, but merit. 1 John 2 says sins are forgiven faithfully and righteously because a propitiation has been made. God forgives sin because His wrath against them has been assuaged.
We experience renewed fellowship with God as a result of confessing our sins. Because God is in the light, we are renewed in Him when we return to the light.
 

CS1

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Telling people that having blasphemed the Holy Spirit is unforgivABLE, is worse than telling someone they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit, IMHO.
Semantic. I said very clearly

There are people who use this to Condemn people and control them.
 

CS1

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God's forgiveness is conditional upon repentance (MT 1:15), and HB 6:4-6 says it is impossible to bring those who commit apostasy "back to repentance".
is it? Peter did not deny Jesus and betray him. Does the Bible say that those who repent are forgiven, but not those who betrayed the faith?
 

GWH

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I do not see Hebrews saying they will not be forgiven but those who return to justification by the law
"They" is definitely those who were saved, but just how they "have fallen away" or committed apostasy is not specified in HB, which is why it may be by committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit per Christ Jesus, which may mean repenting of accepting His Lordship.
 

GWH

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.
Heb 5:11-14 . . We have much to say about that, but it is hard to explain
because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be
teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's
word all over again. You need milk, not solid food. Anyone who lives on milk,
being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.
But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves
to distinguish the good from the bad.


Therein the author pointed out that it was time for some of his readers to
move on up to higher ground.


Heb 6:1-3 . .Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ
and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from
acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the
laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And
God permitting, we will do so.


From this point onward, the author will need God's assistance if he's to have
any success at all getting thru his listeners thick skulls.


Heb 6:4-6 . . For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and
have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy
Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world
to come; if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an
open shame.


Now the thing to note is that folks unified with Christ have all been made
partakers of the Holy Ghost.


2Cor 1:21-22 . . Now he which establishes us with you in Christ, and has
anointed us, is God; who has also sealed us, and given the earnest of the
Spirit in our hearts.


Eph 1:13-14 . . Christ; in whom you also trusted, after that you heard the
word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you
believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the
earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of his glory.


Eph 4:30 . . Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed
unto the day of redemption.


So then the folks described as fallen away are not lost, no, the thing they've
gone and done is made themselves unteachable, i.e. indifferent.


Well; seeing as how nothing is impossible with God, then I think it's safe to
posit that He figures believers with that attitude are not worth His time for
now; and any effort on our part to get them interested in advanced Bible
studies would be banging our heads against a brick wall. Oh, they'll make to
Heaven alright, but I suspect they'll be shuttled off to Bible camp to bring
them up to speed with those of us who made the climb to higher ground
while down here instead waiting till we got up there.
_
The other option is that "sealed" assumes or depends on perseverance in saving faith. IOW, believers have God's seal of approval, but this does not mean they no longer have volition.

Perhaps Jesus' story in LK 11:24-26 is relevant: When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it returns to the house it left and finds it swept clean and put in order, so it invites other spirits more wicked than itself to join it and live there, and the final condition of the person is worse than the first.
 

GWH

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is it? Peter did not deny Jesus and betray him. Does the Bible say that those who repent are forgiven, but not those who betrayed the faith?
Peter's denial of following Jesus is described as pretense because he feared sharing Jesus' fate at the hands of the cancel culture.
 

Webers.Home

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God's seal of approval,

It's my understanding that the seal spoken of in 2Cor 1:21-22, Eph 1:13-14,
and Eph 4:30 isn't a seal of approval, rather, it's proof of ownership.



this does not mean they no longer have volition.

Jesus has been tasked with managing a number of very special sheep.

John 10:29 . . My sheep . . my Father gave them to me

The thing is: animal husbandry isn't democratic, on the contrary: it's quite
despotic, i.e. a rancher's free will trumps the herd's free will. So be advised:
once someone makes the decision to unify with Christ, they relinquish
whatever sovereignty they had as a beast at large, viz: they become Christ's
property.

1Cor 6:19-20 . .You are not your own; you were bought at a price.

And there's no going back because Jesus and his Father play for keeps. In
other words: in order for the sheep to break away from Christ, they would
need to overpower not only him but his Father also; which isn't likely.

John 10:28-29 . . No one can take them out of my hand-- my Father, who
has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one can take them out of
the Father's hand. I and my Father stand together.

NOTE: People are actually casting a nay vote in regard to Jesus' competence
when they insist it's possible for him to lose some of the sheep that his
Father gave him. Were Christ an ordinary guy I would be inclined to agree
with the skeptics; but his miracles demonstrate that the good shepherd has
all the powers and abilities of the supreme being at his disposal to insure he
succeeds at keeping the sheep right where his Father wants them kept.

John 4:34 . . My food is to do the will of the One who sent me.

John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.
_
 

PaulThomson

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Semantic. I said very clearly

There are people who use this to Condemn people and control them.
Semantics:

  1. the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. The two main areas are logical semantics, concerned with matters such as sense and reference and presupposition and implication, and lexical semantics, concerned with the analysis of word meanings and relations between them; the meaning of a word, phrase, or text.

    plural noun: semantics
    "such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff" Oxford Languages


    What's wrong with semantics. Do you object to approaching scripture with an interest in applying logic and discerning the meaning of its language?
    It is the inaccurate shoe-horning of unforgivABLE into Jesus warnings about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that allow those texts to be falsely weaponised against people so as to bring them into bondage to despair.
My point is that whatever it may be, it is not unforgivABLE.
 

CS1

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Peter's denial of following Jesus is described as pretense because he feared sharing Jesus' fate at the hands of the cancel culture.
lol ok, I think you are splitting hairs
 

CS1

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Semantics:

  1. the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. The two main areas are logical semantics, concerned with matters such as sense and reference and presupposition and implication, and lexical semantics, concerned with the analysis of word meanings and relations between them; the meaning of a word, phrase, or text.

    plural noun: semantics
    "such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff" Oxford Languages


    What's wrong with semantics. Do you object to approaching scripture with an interest in applying logic and discerning the meaning of its language?
    It is the inaccurate shoe-horning of unforgivABLE into Jesus warnings about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that allow those texts to be falsely weaponised against people so as to bring them into bondage to despair.
My point is that whatever it may be, it is not unforgivABLE.
I made the point, and you can agree or not. It is not essential to me. You do agree with my understanding. I will move on and leave to your position.
 

PaulThomson

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I made the point, and you can agree or not. It is not essential to me. You do agree with my understanding. I will move on and leave to your position.
The only thing that arms these texts to be used to condemn and control is the incorrect inference that they speak of an unforgivABLE sin. If we can see that it is not proposing an unforgivABLE sin then they can't be used to condemn and control us.
 

CS1

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The only thing that arms these texts to be used to condemn and control is the incorrect inference that they speak of an unforgivABLE sin. If we can see that it is not proposing an unforgivABLE sin then they can't be used to condemn and control us.
Hebrews chapter 6

4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.



9 Dear friends, even though we are talking this way, we really don’t believe it applies to you.

We are confident that you are meant for better things, things that come with salvation. 10 For God is not unjust. He will not forget how hard you have worked for him and how you have shown your love to him by caring for other believers, as you still do.
11 Our great desire is that you will keep on loving others as long as life lasts, in order to make certain that what you hope for will come true.

12 Then you will not become spiritually dull and indifferent. Instead, you will follow the example of those who are going to inherit God’s promises because of their faith and endurance.
 

GWH

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It's my understanding that the seal spoken of in 2Cor 1:21-22, Eph 1:13-14,
and Eph 4:30 isn't a seal of approval, rather, it's proof of ownership.



Jesus has been tasked with managing a number of very special sheep.

John 10:29 . . My sheep . . my Father gave them to me

The thing is: animal husbandry isn't democratic, on the contrary: it's quite
despotic, i.e. a rancher's free will trumps the herd's free will. So be advised:
once someone makes the decision to unify with Christ, they relinquish
whatever sovereignty they had as a beast at large, viz: they become Christ's
property.


1Cor 6:19-20 . .You are not your own; you were bought at a price.

And there's no going back because Jesus and his Father play for keeps. In
other words: in order for the sheep to break away from Christ, they would
need to overpower not only him but his Father also; which isn't likely.


John 10:28-29 . . No one can take them out of my hand-- my Father, who
has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one can take them out of
the Father's hand. I and my Father stand together.


NOTE: People are actually casting a nay vote in regard to Jesus' competence
when they insist it's possible for him to lose some of the sheep that his
Father gave him. Were Christ an ordinary guy I would be inclined to agree
with the skeptics; but his miracles demonstrate that the good shepherd has
all the powers and abilities of the supreme being at his disposal to insure he
succeeds at keeping the sheep right where his Father wants them kept.


John 4:34 . . My food is to do the will of the One who sent me.

John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.
_
Viewing the seal as ownership should not mean folks are forced to persevere or that Jesus was unable to sin, because if God were going to cancel volition, the loving thing would be to dispense with the notion that souls are accountable for sin and force them to be perfect from the beginning.

God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced--probably even in animals.

As for JN 10:28-29, you will note that it does not say a sheep cannot choose to leave the hand.
 

GWH

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lol ok, I think you are splitting hairs
Not at all. I am aware that in JN 21:15-17 Peter's true faith is indicated, which means his denial was pretense. Plus, if it were apostasy, HB 6:4-6 says he would not have repented.
 

Webers.Home

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As for JN 10:28-29, you will note that it does not say a sheep cannot choose to leave the hand.

So you've gone and cast a nay vote relative to Jesus' competence? Ouch! That's a
huge mistake because it's necessary to believe in him in order to take advantage of
John 3:16 and John 5:24.


BTW: There are two hands in John 10:28-29. In order for Jesus' sheep to break away
they would have to overpower not only Jesus but his Father too, which isn't likely.


* Where it says no man and/or no one in John 10:28-29, that obviously includes the
sheep; and besides the Greek word actually means not even one (man, woman or
thing) i.e. none, nobody, nothing.


Jesus said: I am the door; whoever enters through me shall be saved. (John 10:9)

Were Christ an ordinary guy; then he wouldn't dare say "shall be saved" no, he'd have
to tone it down a bit and say shall be safer instead of shall be saved. That would leave
him some room for error. But when Christ says shall be saved, he's claiming a 0.0%
failure rate. That's how confident Christ is that he will lose nothing of those that his
Father gave him.


FAQ: How does an interested party go about entering that door?

REPLY: With a simple RSVP. Find a quiet place. Cover your face with your hands. It will
give you a sense of connection. And in your own words, out loud or under your breath,
tell God you believe His son is a reliable shepherd and you'd like to be one of his sheep.
_
 

GWH

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So you've gone and cast a nay vote relative to Jesus' competence? Ouch! That's a
huge mistake because it's necessary to believe in him in order to take advantage of
John 3:16 and John 5:24.


BTW: There are two hands in John 10:28-29. In order for Jesus' sheep to break away
they would have to overpower not only Jesus but his Father too, which isn't likely.


* Where it says no man and/or no one in John 10:28-29, that obviously includes the
sheep; and besides the Greek word actually means not even one (man, woman or
thing) i.e. none, nobody, nothing.


Jesus said: I am the door; whoever enters through me shall be saved. (John 10:9)

Were Christ an ordinary guy; then he wouldn't dare say "shall be saved" no, he'd have
to tone it down a bit and say shall be safer instead of shall be saved. That would leave
him some room for error. But when Christ says shall be saved, he's claiming a 0.0%
failure rate. That's how confident Christ is that he will lose nothing of those that his
Father gave him.


FAQ: How does an interested party go about entering that door?

REPLY: With a simple RSVP. Find a quiet place. Cover your face with your hands. It will
give you a sense of connection. And in your own words, out loud or under your breath,
tell God you believe His son is a reliable shepherd and you'd like to be one of his sheep.
_
Not at all, but I am aware that in addition to Jesus saying that whoever enters shall be saved, He also said that whoever endures or remains in the fold until the end shall be saved, and so I harmonize the two statements by understanding that the hand of God/Christ does not annul human volition and thus accountability.

A fuller description of how a soul enters AND remains is what is presented in the Kerygma thread, although of course new converts may not understand the details very clearly.
 

Webers.Home

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whoever endures or remains in the fold until the end shall be saved

You've made the sheep's safety the sheep's responsibility when their safety
is actually the shepherd's responsibility. And should the task prove too much
for the shepherd, then the sheep's safety becomes his Father's responsibility
because they together are a tag team, so to speak.

John 10:28-29 . . No one can take them out of my hand-- my Father, who
has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one can take them out of
the Father's hand. I and my Father stand together.

BTW: "no one" of course includes the sheep seeing as how the Greek word
actually means not even one (man, woman or thing) i.e. none, nobody,
nothing.
 

Webers.Home

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human volition

Animal husbandry isn't democratic, on the contrary: it's quite despotic.

The thing is: a rancher's free will trumps his herd's free will. So be advised:
once someone makes the decision to unify with Christ, they relinquish
whatever sovereignty they had as a beast at large, viz: they become Christ's
property, and there's no going back because he and his Father play for
keeps.

1Cor 6:19-20 . .You are not your own; you were bought at a price.

As assurance of God's plans for the sheep, He seals them with the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13-14 . . In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of
truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye
were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our
inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the
praise of his glory.

The Greek word translated "earnest" basically pertains to a pledge, i.e. part
of the purchase price and/or property given in advance as security for the
rest.

Now the interesting thing about pledges is that should the depositor renege
on their intentions, they default and the one holding the pledge gets to keep
it. For example Judah's bargain with Tamar in the 38th chapter of Genesis.
_
 

GWH

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Oct 19, 2024
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You've made the sheep's safety the sheep's responsibility when their safety
is actually the shepherd's responsibility. And should the task prove too much
for the shepherd, then the sheep's safety becomes his Father's responsibility
because they together are a tag team, so to speak.


John 10:28-29 . . No one can take them out of my hand-- my Father, who
has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one can take them out of
the Father's hand. I and my Father stand together.


BTW: "no one" of course includes the sheep seeing as how the Greek word
actually means not even one (man, woman or thing) i.e. none, nobody,
nothing.
The issue of apostasy has been debated ever since Augustine of Hippo developed his doctrine of predestination about A.D. 400. Romans 8:38-39 seems to say that it is impossible for a Christian to fail to persevere. Paul writes: “For I am convinced that neither death nor life… nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” We also read in John 10:27-29 that Jesus said, “My sheep listen to my voice… no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” (Also, see EPH 1:11-14, 1JN 2:19, ACTS 17:26, PS 135:6 & PR 21:1.)

However, there are numerous verses in the NT which indicate that it is possible for a believer intentionally or willfully to separate him/herself from Christ (cf. GL 5:1 & RV 12:9). The classic passage that teaches the possibility of apostasy is Hebrews 6:4-6: “It is impossible for those who have… shared in the Holy Spirit… if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again.” Another verse in this vein is Galatians 5:4: “You who are trying to be justified by law… have fallen away from grace.” (The reader should also see RM 11:22, 1CR 15:2, CL 1:22-23, 2THS 1:4-5, 2TM 2:12, HB 3:6&14, 10:35-36, JM 1:12, 2PT 1:10-11, 2:20, 1JN 2:24-25 and RV 2:10. These Scriptures are quoted at the end of this part.)

Some Christians say that the biblical exhortations to persevere do not imply the possibility of apostasy but this interpretation is problematic for three reasons:

First, the plain sense of many verses of Scripture including those listed in the preceding parentheses suggests that it is possible for a believer to commit apostasy, and saying that this understanding is false seems to make God tricky.

Second, God’s plan of salvation from the miserable consequences of choosing to reject Him makes sense only if people are morally accountable or free, and free will is meaningful only if a person can choose between essentially opposite options, as in Deuteronomy 30:19: “I set before you today life and death, blessings and curses.” This is the same choice that was set before Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (GN 2:16-17) and before that to Satan in heaven (LK 10:18).

I see no reason to think that this choice is not eternal, because it is this choice which creates: free will (faith in Christ or antichrist), moral responsibility (love the Lord or hate Him) and meaningful life (taste of heaven now and hope for eternal joy rather than misery now and ultimately hell). And 1 Corinthians 13:13 says “these three remain”.

Third, Jesus said “The truth will set you free” (JN 8:32), and “If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” (JN 8:36) As a disciple of Christ I feel free, and I find every day fraught with significance as I fight on God’s side against evil in a war that has ultimate consequences for the destiny of my soul. Spiritual freedom is in Christ.

If Christians retain the same freedom they had as non-Christians to accept or reject Christ’s Lordship, then the second most important truth to learn in life after the Gospel/kerygma is the “necessity” of persevering in accepting Christ as Lord and in learning God’s Word (LGW) until we die in order to achieve our God-given purpose in life: the fullness of Christ or spiritual maturity. [LGW signifies this truth.]
 

PaulThomson

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Hebrews chapter 6

4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.



9 Dear friends, even though we are talking this way, we really don’t believe it applies to you.

We are confident that you are meant for better things, things that come with salvation. 10 For God is not unjust. He will not forget how hard you have worked for him and how you have shown your love to him by caring for other believers, as you still do.
11 Our great desire is that you will keep on loving others as long as life lasts, in order to make certain that what you hope for will come true.

12 Then you will not become spiritually dull and indifferent. Instead, you will follow the example of those who are going to inherit God’s promises because of their faith and endurance.
So the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is forgivable. It is impossible for the author to bring to repentance "those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6 and who then turn away from God. " But with God nothing is impossible.