The Gospels and the Mystery

Cameron143 · Nov 1, 2024

GWH said:

Sure, God is good, so His purpose is always the good of people. But fallen man is subject to his nature, which is antithetical to God. You ignore the fallen estate of man in your equation.

Musicmaster · Nov 1, 2024

GWH said:

Ok, let's look at those:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Yes, this establishes that creation itself declares the existence of God, and so all are without excuse.

Matthew 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Yes, Jesus spoke that to the Jews, for salvation is of the Jews under the Kingdom Gospel.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

There is no question whatsoever in my mind and understanding that faith is a common element for righteousness and salvation, going all the way back to Abraham.

MM

Musicmaster · Nov 1, 2024

GWH said:

The Lord's supper, as it is called, is not a matter of salvation as an element of the gospels (plural). It is at that event that the cup of the New Covenant was passed to Israel as the ones through whom salvation came to the world before the Gospel of Grace.

MM

GWH · Nov 1, 2024

Musicmaster said:

"All" being without excuse includes all humanity as well as Jews, and they are without excuse for being condemned because they rejected the opportunity to find God and salvation, and how can you be so adamant about Jesus limiting salvation to the Jews in MT 7:7 when the whole point of Hebrews is that the Old Covenant or Kingdom is being superseded by the New Covenant of salvation also for the Gentiles who seek God?! You HAVE read HB 7:18-10:1?

Musicmaster · Nov 1, 2024

GWH said:

You're absolutely correct. Jews are included in that responsibility, for the Light was given to them to shine out onto all the world since Gentiles at that time had to join with the Jews to find salvation, but not right now during the Gospel of Grace. Salvation is now acquired apart from the Jews by grace through faith.

I think you misunderstood what I said. Salvation is OF the Jews. That is what Jesus Himself said. Being OF the Jews doesn't mean that it was only FOR the Jews. I'm somewhat surprised that you would make such a fundamental blunder.

MM

Musicmaster · Nov 1, 2024

Derailing the false beliefs that arise from failure to rightly divide the word of truth is indeed what this thread is all about.

https://youtube.com/shorts/p7BFbmtL3m4?si=0idGF7bpUCCKnVDp

MM

GWH · Nov 1, 2024

Musicmaster said:

Sorry I misunderstood, but it probably won't be the last time, because communicating clearly is tricky.

I hope you understand that salvation has always existed apart from the Jews, because the Jewish history has always only been known by a small sliver of people in the world. (RM 4:9-18, HB 7:11-19)

Musicmaster · Nov 2, 2024

GWH said:

Hmm. So, when Jesus said this:

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Given that the Law had been given to the Jews alone, and that those who most today call "proselytes" portrayed in scripture, but who were actually Gentiles who had become Jews, what other way could Gentiles find salvation? Paul seemed to think otherwise to what you've said:

Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

As Paul stated, Gentiles before the Gospel of Grace, were without hope and without God in the world, given that salvation was of the Jews.

How did you arrive at your personal interpretation, then, if you don't mind my asking?

MM

GWH · Nov 3, 2024

Musicmaster said:

Yes, salvation is possible because the Jewish heritage culminated with the atonement of Messiah.

No, the possibility of a soul being saved who has never heard of the Jews does not depend upon knowing the OT & NT per Paul in RM 1:20.

Regarding my interpretation or hermeneutic or parameters for interpreting the Bible:

My method begins with the instruction of Paul (1THS 5:21) to “Test everything. Hold on to the good.” A truthseeker wants to know the truth, and is guided by the question: What is most true or closest to the truth? The basis for determining truth is subjective logic that is made as objective as possible by learning from other truthseekers, preferably via dialogue when possible (perhaps via christian chat.com).

As a result of seeking ultimate truth, I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide my interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements. First, God loves and wants to save everyone (1TM 2:3-4); Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (RM 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ). Second, God is just (2THS 1:6a, cf. RM 3:25-26 & 9:14, DT 32:4, PS 36:6, LK 11:42, RV 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (JL 2:13, JN 3:16). I find this hermeneutic affirmed in the OT (PS 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” Triangulate from God’s love & justness.

This principle leads me to conclude that even the wrath of God is an expression of His love and justice. The writer of Hebrews (12:4-11) indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline or for the purpose of teaching people to repent of their hatefulness and faithlessness (PR 3:12, IS 33:14-15 RV 3:19). If a righteous explanation cannot be found for a passage of Scripture purporting to describe God’s will, then it should be considered as historical or descriptive of what people perceived rather than as pedagogical or prescriptive of God’s nature. Unrighteous rage should not be attributed to God.

The justice of God is a source of comfort and joy to those who have decided to accept His loving Lordship, but it is experienced as judgment or wrath by those who rebel against Him (IS 13:13, RM 1:18, RV 19:11). The fire that warms (purifies) also burns (punishes). Stating God’s requirement for salvation negatively: a person would do well (be wise) not to reject Him in order not to experience the miserable but just consequence (JN 3:17-18). Just consequences teach good behavior.

Other important elements in my hermeneutic include the following. Everyone lives by fallible faith/belief/opinion and sufficient knowledge of evidence rather than by absolute certainty or proof or coercion (2CR 5:7). Second, a logical train of thought leads an unbiased truthseeker to have a propensity to believe in an all-loving God, who is not tricky and does not hide the way to heaven (HB 11:6, ACTS 13:10). Third, humanity’s understanding of God evolved or progressed through the millenniums, so that the OT was superseded by the NT, which is the apex of divine revelation (HB 7:18, 8:13, 9:15).

The method employed in this hermeneutic is additive or eclectic as taught by Paul (in 1THS 5:21), exemplified by Jesus (in MT 4:6-7) and illustrated by the transparent overlays of bodily systems found in some books on anatomy. I want to include all true assertions in the picture of reality without making a “Procrustean Body” by cutting off or ignoring parts that do not seem to fit, because the correct understanding must be self-consistent or else God would be tricky. The whole truth combines parts without sawing!

The Bible says God’s Spirit is love and truth (1JN 4:8 & 5:6), which means all love (agape, RM 6:5-8) in all people is God’s operation, and all truth in all cultures is God’s revelation. Thus, becoming a Christian theist does not mean rejecting what is good and true in one’s pre-Christian experience or culture. As the philosopher Hegel taught: when considering two different understandings (thesis A versus antithesis B), the truth may not be either one or the other but rather the proper harmonization of the two. (Both A and B = synthesis C.)

The Bible teaches (GN 1:3, JN 1:1-3) that both the world and inspired words are expressions of God’s Word/Logos, and thus scientific and spiritual truths must be compatible or else God would be tricky. So, while belief that God is love and Jesus is Lord is based upon the biblical revelation, knowledge also is gleaned from the natural sciences and common sense. While my interpretation of reality is influenced by the Bible, I utilize logical thinking, especially where the Bible seems silent, hoping that I am guided by the Spirit of Truth (JN 14:17).

Musicmaster · Nov 3, 2024

GWH said:

You started out with those who had never heard of the Jews, but didn't complete the thought as to how those people could still be saved apart from joining with the Jews.

Within the age of grace, yes. It does not at all matter as to if one knows of the Jews and the Law, or not. Grace is the one thing revealed to and through Paul that transcends the requirement to join with the Jew for salvation, as was the case in the Gospel preached by Christ and the twelve who later became the eleven. That Gospel spoke of a Kingdom and water baptism unto the remission of sins. The disciples were forbidden to even preach that to Gentiles and Samaritans (who were half Jew).

They apostles actively started out, after the ascension, preaching the Kingdom, the very one that Jesus said that some standing right there within hearing of His voice would see the fulfillment. This and so much more gives pause to consider realities beyond the scope of our experience in God's dealings with mankind.

We even see in Esther 8 that the Gentiles across a large swath of Asia down into Africa became Jews. Some out there interpret that as being because of the decree from Ahasuerus. who ruled more than 127 provinces from India to Ethiopia, a decree allowing the Jews to defend themselves against anyone who would act upon the previous decree allowing the killing of the Jews. Many mistakenly assume that the Jews then had license to go out and kill Gentiles indiscriminately, which is utterly false. The fear the Gentiles harbored was rooted in something other than Gentile fear of the Jews for personal safety. There has to be more to the story, and I'm sure someone will bring up political intrigue as a way of getting around one other likelihood that resides in the back of my mind, but remains an item of debate.

Anyway, Paul said what he said, which has deep implications as to how lost all Gentiles were who did not join up with the Jews:

Ephesians 2:11-12
11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

The implications of that are huge, contrary to all the senseless yammering liberal theologians out there spew like chunks of vomit their warped theologies into the mouths of those who hate Israel with a hatred that goes far beyond reason or rational thought. Israel was given the Law for a reason that spans beyond them merely becoming a peculiar people in relation to all the pagan nations around them. Peculiarity, in how the Lord defines it, has meaning beyond the mere slight-of-hand antics of the ignorant. When Jesus said that salvation is of the Jews, that shockwave goes beyond just the miniscule time of His walking this earth. It goes all the way back to Abraham, which was the Lord's way of dealing with an increasing population upon the earth.

So, no, I will stick with the scriptures that show Israel as the portal into salvation and being in Christ, for we all have seen how the Law and the prophets all point to Christ, and so becoming a Jew for salvation was indeed a matter of being in Christ all throughout. Paul's words are therefore not limited to only immediately before the coming of Christ to this world, but into ages and ages beyond.

(None of what I wrote here was copied and pasted into here besides the scriptures above.)

MM

Musicmaster · Nov 3, 2024

Generally speaking, let's look at these verses more closely:

Ephesians 2:11-12
11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

What are "gentiles in the flesh?" Well, if we think it through, and even look it up in the Bible and consider all of scripture and salvation acquisition in the past and after the coming of the Gospel of Grace, we can surmise that Gentiles in the flesh, like Jews in the flesh, are not saved apart from faith as the common element through all dispensations, both of works and of grace. Gentiles in the flesh, then, are the unsaved Gentiles.

In times past, however, Gentiles had to join with the Jews to acquire salvation. With the eventual reality of the Jews having been "cut off" for a time, there had to be some other way of salvation, and grace became that means until the Jews are grafted back in.

Continuing, when they were alienated from the commonwealth of Israel because of their refusal to join with Israel and the Law, they remained strangers from the covenants of promise rather than partakers by joining with Israel, they therefore had no hope and were without God. How could one ever be saved without God? They couldn't before the Gospel of Grace and remaining alienated from the commonwealth of Israel.

So, when we work through the things stated by Paul above, in context, it all works together to build an understanding of how it was before, during and after the coming of Christ until the time when Israel was "cut off." The state of being cut off means that they were no longer partakers of the Vine and the nourishment from that Vine. We could explore what the term "nourishment" can and does mean in the overall scheme of things, but that's another avenue of exploration I won't go into here in this post. Suffice it to say that the Lord chose Israel for more than merely being a science experiment in humanity's failure to live up to the Law of God.

MM

GWH · Nov 3, 2024

Musicmaster said:

How those people could still be saved apart from joining with the Jews include:

1. general revelation, which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work. Paul says men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (RM 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (CL 1:23, RM 10:13-18, GL 3:8).

2. the inner conscience, a natural or “common” sense (RM 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture; and

The parable of the talents may be understood as teaching that souls are saved via faith in God/ Christ as revealed (cf. 1CR 10:1-5). Truthseekers around the world in all times are pilgrims at various places along the road of life, and all true roads eventually lead to the Way to eternal life in heaven (JN 14:6, ACTS 24:14, PHP 2:10-11). All truth leads to One Way.

What Paul said in EPH 2:12 about Gentiles being strangers to the covenant and without hope needs to be harmonized with what he says in RM 1:20 and 1TM 2:3-4 about general revelation and universal love as well as the Scripture cited above about a proto-gospel.
So, we should stick with ALL Scripture.

Musicmaster · Nov 3, 2024

GWH said:

I've heard the "general revelation" arguments before, but don't see them laid out as a legitimate grounding within theological discourse. For example, the contextual grounding for Romans 10 was not directed at the general populace of the world, but to those who heard the preaching of Paul and those who were with him:

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

So, if one points at the natives living in the deepest, darkest jungles of South America at that time, they could not have heard what Paul preached, but they had/have what was handed down to them from their ancestors coupled with what they can see in nature around them, and how/if the Lord made known to them a name upon which they could call...we simply are not told about them, with speculation being the best that we can throw out there in the hopes that everyone believes whatever we concoct, about people we have never met.

The bottom line is that even those people in those jungles, they alone are responsible for the Light that is creation for the evidence of the Lord's existence. Unbelievers love trying to use this topic against professing believers who are not prepared to answer.

Again, where those people in those places and times end up is of no concern to us today. The plethora of gospels out there are doing their damage. The true Gospel that Paul preached, is the only Gospel unto salvation, which is by grace. Many false gospels are resident in every nation on this earth. All the works-based gospels are doing their damage in many lives, including people like Paul Washer and his wife. Their fixation upon works and their feelings about their own lives is sad to behold, but they alone are responsible for the curse that rests upon all who preach "another gospel," which is also true of what is today touted by the largest denomination in the world, and that is forging lines of fellowship with the darkness of a major, violent religion...among many other very dark and satanic religions...

MM

GWH · Nov 3, 2024

Musicmaster said:

I've heard the "general revelation" arguments before, but don't see them laid out as a legitimate grounding within theological discourse. For example, the contextual grounding for Romans 10 was not directed at the general populace of the world, but to those who heard the preaching of Paul and those who were with him:

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

So, if one points at the natives living in the deepest, darkest jungles of South America at that time, they could not have heard what Paul preached, but they had/have what was handed down to them from their ancestors coupled with what they can see in nature around them, and how/if the Lord made known to them a name upon which they could call...we simply are not told about them, with speculation being the best that we can throw out there in the hopes that everyone believes whatever we concoct, about people we have never met.

The bottom line is that even those people in those jungles, they alone are responsible for the Light that is creation for the evidence of the Lord's existence. Unbelievers love trying to use this topic against professing believers who are not prepared to answer.

Again, where those people in those places and times end up is of no concern to us today. The plethora of gospels out there are doing their damage. The true Gospel that Paul preached, is the only Gospel unto salvation, which is by grace. Many false gospels are resident in every nation on this earth. All the works-based gospels are doing their damage in many lives, including people like Paul Washer and his wife. Their fixation upon works and their feelings about their own lives is sad to behold, but they alone are responsible for the curse that rests upon all who preach "another gospel," which is also true of what is today touted by the largest denomination in the world, and that is forging lines of fellowship with the darkness of a major, violent religion...among many other very dark and satanic religions...

MM

Yes, the bottom line is that even those people who never knew the OT or NT are responsible for the Light revealed via creation of the Lord's existence, power and loving nature.

Yes, unbelievers use this topic against believers who are poor witnesses if they disobey the command of Peter to be prepared to answer anyone who asks us to explain the hope we have.

Where those people in those places and times end up should be of concern to us today if we want to be prepared to be better witnesses for God.

Musicmaster · Nov 3, 2024

GWH said:

That sounds like Mormonism where they teach that everyone will have a second chance after death to receive the Mormon gospel. Is that what you're touting here?

Additionally, there's nothing you, me or anyone else can do for anyone who lived in the jungles back then, on the other side of the world of Paul and the eleven. They are long dead, which is why I do not concern myself with them as there is nothing anyone can do for them and that they are responsible for their own choices in relation to the existence of God. We know that nobody is saved on the basis of a knowledge of God's existence, for even the demons believe in the existence of God, as you likely know.

So, what are you saying about those people back then up to now, given that they are all without excuse? You said they had a path to salvation, even though they didn't know the name to call upon? If salvation was not of the Jews, then is God a liar? I'm just trying to figure out what you're saying and the implications of it all.

MM

GWH · Nov 3, 2024

Musicmaster said:

I am trying to explain why those people are all without excuse based on hints in Scripture that they had a path to salvation, even though they didn't know the name to call upon was Messiah Jesus of the Jews, mainly for the purpose of refuting accusations by atheists that God is hateful for condemning such ignorance unjustly-- in obedience to the command in 1PT 3:15.

Musicmaster · Nov 3, 2024

GWH said:

Yes, I agree with you that they are without excuse, and their condition of ignorance has a cause that is laid at the feet of their ancestors who refused to pass on to them the means unto salvation. Atheists can harangue all they want against the Justice of God, for no matter what God would ever do or say, they would never be satisfied. As you know, the Lord is not in the business of trying to justify Himself in their eyes, and He has not laid that duty upon us who are in Christ.

Salvation is of the Jews, and the Lord never made mention of any other way until He revealed to Paul what was sealed up only within Himself, and at the appointed time. Up to that point, salvation remained only being of the Jews, and laying claim to some other way is outside the scope and revelation of scripture. No amount of emotional appeals will ever change the fact that the Lord chose the Jews through whom His salvation came unto mankind.

Those who moved off to other continents were made subject to the error of ignorance by their own ancestors, which cannot be laid at the Feet of the Lord. If you choose to become the Lord's accuser, then that is on you alone. The Lord has spoken, and all the claims of misinterpretation on my part or anyone else who accepts the word of the Lord for what it says, we are ALL still learning, and until someone can show to us a legitimate hermeneutic for there being some other means unto salvation apart from the one path the Lord specifically stated as exclusionary, it is all just debate with no realistic and solid foundation.

MM

ChristRoseFromTheDead · Nov 3, 2024

Musicmaster said:

Christ meant salvation is out of the tribe of Judah, ie Christ. The Greek word ek that is translated 'of' means 'out of' and 'Jew' means Judean, ie a member of the tribe of Judah. The Samaritans believed Samaria was the place to worship God, but Jesus said, no you don't know what you're doing; salvation comes out of Judah

Of
G1537 ἐκ ek (ek) prep.
ἐξ ex (ex)
1. out (of a place, time, or cause).
2. from out (of the point whence action or motion proceeds), forth.
3. (of selection) from among (who from among yeu is brave).
4. (of origin, implicitly) birthed from out (of the womb); (note: this usage of the word is a polite euphemism for “out of the birthing canal,” both literally of a baby and figuratively of an idea or action).

Jew
G2453 Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios (you-d̮ai'-os) adj/g.
1. of Judea (i.e. belonging to Jehudah, as contrasted with being of Galilee, also contrasting southern and northern kingdoms in the Land of Israel).
2. (as a noun) a Judean.

ChristRoseFromTheDead · Nov 3, 2024

Musicmaster said:

It was actually first revealed to Peter about 3.5 years after the cross. Peter was, in fact, commissioned with initiating the age of the nations by baptizing non-Jews into the kingdom of God

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:34-35

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. Acts 10:44-48

ChristRoseFromTheDead · Nov 3, 2024

byw the above verse shows that salvation for those gentiles was not of the Jews; it was of Christ. The gentiles who received salvation at the hand of Peter didn't receive it from a Judean (Jew), but from a Galilean who was not a Judean. The disciples did not consider themselves to be Judeans; they made a distinction. If they had considered themselves to be Jews they would not have spoken like this:

Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again. His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again? John 11:7-8

The Gospels and the Mystery

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