Understanding God’s election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Oct 19, 2024
495
149
43
Hello GWH,
Thanks for responding.
I answered your first point.
God does save everyone" all inclusive"
He never purposed to do so. The Ot High Priest wore 12 stones on his breastplate for the 12 tribes who he interceded for.It was for Israel only in the OT. No Atonement was made for those outside of Israel.
#3...do not add words to scripture...it implies no such thing; watch here;


Paragraph 3
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,7 to the praise of His glorious grace;8
others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.9



7 1 Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:34
8 Eph. 1:5–6
9 Rom. 9:22–23; Jude 4
#
I commend you for studying. Many do not. I think you have missed some key elements, and I will try and offer when I see you drifting from the safe harbor of truth.
Not sure how God saves everyone without purposing to do so.
The OT except in a few places and in some of the prophets did not understand that God loves and wants to save all who satisfy GRFS, not only the Jews.
Not sure what words you think are added to Scripture by saying that the Bible doesn't claim God predestines the non-elect to hell, but those who deny that God provides all the opportunity to be saved imply such. Jesus suggests that few are chosen or elect.
Not sure what paragraph 3 v. 7-9 refers to, but if it is to the passages following, you added words.
1TM 5:21 refers to elect angels, presumably because they had the opportunity to accept Christ
MT 25:34 refers to those who are blessed, presumably because they availed themselves of the same grace.
EPH 1:5-6 refers to God's will, which is to cooperate with the plan of salvation He predestined: to elect those who are in Christ.
RM 9:22-23 says God could choose to condemn people who deserve wrath, but His love offers them salvation in Christ.

I appreciate your offer, and that is what we all should do.
Next?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,729
6,437
113
62
You can't show Adam and Eve building an airplane in scripture because it's not there. Doesn't mean they didn't, but you can't show it.
Sure, but I didn't state that Adam and Eve built an airplane.

I believe that Adam and Eve did repent of their sin even though it isn't explicitly stated in scripture. I don't believe they built an aircraft.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,981
1,261
113
Sure, but I didn't state that Adam and Eve built an airplane.

I believe that Adam and Eve did repent of their sin even though it isn't explicitly stated in scripture. I don't believe they built an aircraft.

Belief is one thing, but trying to prove it is another. Why believe in something that has zero evidence? I think the lack of anything in the bible speaking of them being forgiven is louder than an assumption they were.
 
Oct 19, 2024
495
149
43
For Iconoclast I think it will be helpful for me to explain my hermeneutic or parameters for interpreting the Bible. My method begins with the instruction of Paul (1THS 5:21) to “Test everything. Hold on to the good.” A truthseeker wants to know the truth, and is guided by the question: What is most true or closest to the truth? Learning truth involves subjective logic that is made as objective as possible by learning from other truthseekers, preferably via dialogue when possible.

As a result of seeking ultimate truth, I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide my interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements. First, God loves and wants to save everyone (1TM 2:3-4); Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (RM 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ). Second, God is just (2THS 1:6a, cf. RM 3:25-26 & 9:14, DT 32:4, PS 36:6, LK 11:42, RV 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (JL 2:13, JN 3:16). I find this hermeneutic affirmed in the OT (PS 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” Triangulate from God’s love & justness.

This principle leads me to conclude that even the wrath of God is an expression of His love and justice. The writer of Hebrews (12:4-11) indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline or for the purpose of teaching people to repent of their hatefulness and faithlessness (PR 3:12, IS 33:14-15 RV 3:19). If a righteous explanation cannot be found for a passage of Scripture purporting to describe God’s will, then it should be considered as historical or descriptive of what people perceived rather than as pedagogical or prescriptive of God’s nature. Unrighteous rage should not be attributed to God.

The justice of God is a source of comfort and joy to those who have decided to accept His loving Lordship, but it is experienced as judgment or wrath by those who rebel against Him (IS 13:13, RM 1:18, RV 19:11). The fire that warms (purifies) also burns (punishes). Stating God’s requirement for salvation negatively: a person would do well (be wise) not to reject Him in order not to experience the miserable but just consequence (JN 3:17-18). Just consequences teach good behavior.

The method employed in this hermeneutic is additive or eclectic as taught by Paul (in 1THS 5:21), exemplified by Jesus (in MT 4:6-7) and illustrated by the transparent overlays of bodily systems found in some books on anatomy. I want to include all true assertions in the picture of reality without making a “Procrustean Body” by cutting off or ignoring parts that do not seem to fit, because the correct understanding must be self-consistent or else God would be tricky. The whole truth combines parts without sawing!

The Bible says God’s Spirit is love and truth (1JN 4:8 & 5:6), which means all love (agape, RM 6:5-8) in all people is God’s operation, and all truth in all cultures is God’s revelation. Thus, becoming a Christian theist does not mean rejecting what is good and true in one’s pre-Christian experience or culture. As the philosopher Hegel taught: when considering two different understandings (thesis A versus antithesis B), the truth may not be either one or the other but rather the proper harmonization of the two. (Both A and B = synthesis C.)

The Bible teaches (GN 1:3, JN 1:1-3) that both the world and inspired words are expressions of God’s Word/Logos, and thus scientific and spiritual truths must be compatible or else God would be tricky. So, while belief that God is love and Jesus is Lord is based upon the biblical revelation, knowledge also is gleaned from the natural sciences and common sense. While my interpretation of reality is based on the Bible, I utilize logical thinking, especially where the Bible seems silent, hoping that I am guided by the Spirit of Truth (JN 14:17).
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,729
6,437
113
62
Belief is one thing, but trying to prove it is another. Why believe in something that has zero evidence? I think the lack of anything in the bible speaking of them being forgiven is louder than an assumption they were.
Faith isn't believing in something without evidence, it's belief in evidence that we acquire other than sight. Evidence need not be material to be evidence.
 
Jul 15, 2024
89
16
8
well I have 2 options.

1. the fatalist or calvinist view. which says God makes a person born again, while still in sin. and based on this election. the person will be saved (faith comes after)

2. The other view. that says God offers salvation to everyone, that through his creation, and through the HS and through other means (which may include us) he forces everyone to make a decision.. Those who call on the name of the lord will be saved. Those who reject this call. and deny it, will not be saved.
How about,
3. Because of Adam and Eve's sin, we are all born with a conscience and all are born under the law because we have the knowledge of what is good and what is evil. No one is worthy because we all sin. What makes us sin is our motivation for living which is love of self above God and others. Justice demands that we all get punished, the Father, in His mercy, saves a few who are chosen by Him. He doesn't force Himself on those HE saves. Jesus' first directive in his preaching was to call sinners to repentance. It is how the Father baptizes, with repentance. It is this deep repentance that turns the individual to God in sorrow and shame. The individual is then baptized in the name of the Son when Jesus is preached to him for the forgiveness of sins and he believes. Jesus then baptizes in the name of the Holy Spirit which acts as a portal through which the Father and Son can enter the being indwelled to perfect the person by changing his motivation for living from love of self first to love of God first and all others as he loves himself. When all this happens, the saint knows that he is unworthy, and it is God that makes him worthy, and he is full of thankfulness.
 
Dec 18, 2021
5,803
1,843
113
Did you read the scripture "info" at Open Bible?
I have been reading the Bible for close to 50 years.

I asked you. Why are you so afraid to just say yes or no?
You ask questions yet don't appear toike the Biblical answers..
I know what the Bible says I want to know what you think it days
Fatalism,by definition,is all through Scripture because God has Dominion and is Sovereign over his creation.

"The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps."
Actually no it is not anywhere in the Bible. Yes the lord establishes. He can divert and change people plans. But we are talking about God sending people to hell and not even giving them a chance. We are talking about a God who tells us to love our enemies when he will not do it himself
 
Dec 18, 2021
5,803
1,843
113
How about,
3. Because of Adam and Eve's sin, we are all born with a conscience and all are born under the law
Well here is your first mistake. There was no law until long after the flood

because we have the knowledge of what is good and what is evil. No one is worthy because we all sin.
correct once the law came it confined that all have sinned. And it is so that all could be restored. The law said the sacrifice was for everyone. Not just a few people
What makes us sin is our motivation for living which is love of self above God and others.
What makes us sin is the hole left in our heart when we were alienated from God. We were created for god to fill that need. As a lost person we are doing everything we can to fill that whole. The problem is nothing can fill
It but God so we are on a lifelong journey to fill that whole that’s why Gid can draw us by the people who are his and his light shining through. They see hope that can be theirs also if only they would believe
Justice demands that we all get punished, the Father, in His mercy, saves a few who are chosen by Him. He doesn't force Himself on those HE saves. Jesus' first directive in his preaching was to call sinners to repentance. It is how the Father baptizes, with repentance. It is this deep repentance that turns the individual to God in sorrow and shame. The individual is then baptized in the name of the Son when Jesus is preached to him for the forgiveness of sins and he believes. Jesus then baptizes in the name of the Holy Spirit which acts as a portal through which the Father and Son can enter the being indwelled to perfect the person by changing his motivation for living from love of self first to love of God first and all others as he loves himself. When all this happens, the saint knows that he is unworthy, and it is God that makes him worthy, and he is full of thankfulness.
Wow there is alot here. Looks like you have 4 or 5 gospels at once

Can you share with me the prices of being born again?
 
Aug 25, 2024
249
110
43
I have been reading the Bible for close to 50 years.

I asked you. Why are you so afraid to just say yes or no?
You don't understand my answers so I'll keep it simple for you per the Bible scriptures you prefer to ignore that state the same thing in contextual detail.

Yes.

I know what the Bible says I want to know what you think it days.
It doesn't appear so. See above and below.


Actually no it is not anywhere in the Bible.
Not true.
Proverbs 16:9.

Yes the lord establishes. He can divert and change people plans. But we are talking about God sending people to hell and not even giving them a chance. We are talking about a God who tells us to love our enemies when he will not do it himself
Not true. Thinking to not take God's message in context because scripture harmonizes in the full message is error on your part.
 
Aug 25, 2024
249
110
43
there is a flaw in this logic. You can not be indeed until you are born again justified made alive. This will not just happen you must have faith in God to ask for him to apply his death to you. Otherwise your still dead in sin.
I'll leave you to call scripture false. I can't change that mindset.

You still have not shown me where I was wrong in saying we do it all the time
Your question was,is vague. What are you asking specifically about?

oh I agree. Many are called few are chosen. Not everyone god calls will say yes.
God is Sovereign. And Omniscient. All things are according to his will and plan.

They had already been saved through their faith to them they rejected Christ already
Would you rephrase?
 
Jul 3, 2015
59,682
29,021
113
Did he not repent? Is Adam going to hell?
again God put skins to cover his nakedness do you think God would have done that if Adam rejected God. For that matter do you think Adam would let God do it if Adam was unrepentant?
Where are we told that Adam repented? Either we were told that he repented or we were not told.

Jesus shed His blood for the whole world. Has the whole world repented?

Seems to me not everyone will be saved unless the universalists are right.