Understanding God’s election
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So then you agree that the sons of men cannot will a change of their essence (nature), anymore than God can change his? And you agree that the physically dead cannot will to do anything? If so, how do you make a leap from that kind of inability to ascribe all manner of spiritual ability to the spiritually dead?
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Of course, they don't know it and cannot know it because they are self-deceived. The bible does teach that there is such an animal as spurious faith. You might want to ponder the Parable of the Four Soils in Matthew 13 to learn this truth.
Also, it's not pride or vanity to believe God's revealed truth. But it is pride and vanity to not believe God, as Abraham did.
Also, it's not pride or vanity to believe God's revealed truth. But it is pride and vanity to not believe God, as Abraham did.
Everything I mentioned is established in scripture. For example, the Immutability of God. Since God Almighty cannot change who or what he is in his essence, then what makes you think that sinners can change their nature? Can the Ethiopian change the color of his skin, or the leopard its spots? if not, then explain how sinners, by an act of their own "free" will change their nature? How can sinners recreate themselves to become a new creation?
Why don't just answer Rogerg's questions and demonstrate how your heresy addresses the specific issues he raised in his last post? How do the very young who die at a very young age get to exercise their "free" will to elect Christ so that God in turn can reciprocate their election with one of his own? Why don't you run with that?
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I know the parable. Thanks.
Abraham believed God and obeyed his laws and tenets.
Not believing God is not an example of pride or vanity. It is a characteristic of the natural carnal mind. As 1Corinthians 2 reveals.
We won't know if we are the Elect of God till judgement day.
Faith isn't proof we are so.
If we look at the self professed believers in history who were tyrants and psychopaths we know belief isn't proof. Actions speak louder than words.
Abraham believed God and obeyed his laws and tenets.
Not believing God is not an example of pride or vanity. It is a characteristic of the natural carnal mind. As 1Corinthians 2 reveals.
We won't know if we are the Elect of God till judgement day.
Faith isn't proof we are so.
If we look at the self professed believers in history who were tyrants and psychopaths we know belief isn't proof. Actions speak louder than words.
All unbelievers refuse to believe the gospel because of their pride and vanity and sense of self-importance! Pride is the Number Sin of the entire Human Race!
You say you know the Parable of the Four Soils then in the next breath talk about the "self professed believers" as though they were ever believers! They were not! Just as the first century Church was literally plagued by false teachers and false prophets -- all of whom were preaching and teaching an equally false gospel, then it stands to reason that many would buy into their teaching and preaching and deceive themselves into believing they were in the kingdom of God. The "tyrants and psychopaths" of whom you speak were never saved. They just thought they were. Very many of them will be in this group come judgement day:
Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
NIV
The fact that Christ could say that "I never knew you..." teaches that they were never saved. They never had saving knowledge of God or his Christ. All these self-deceived people in this passage had spurious faith.
And you may not know until judgment day or your death where you stand with your version of god....but I most certainly know where I stand right now with my God who has revealed himself to me experientially and biblically. My God is not a trickster or hoaxster or joker or mean-spirited as your god is. My God, who is loving, kind, patient, compassionate, merciful and gracious did not tell me: "Hey, Rufus, I have good news for you: If you believe the gospel, you have eternal life; but the bad news is, you still can't really know that until you give up the ghost! You have to live your entire life on earth in doubt until the day you die!"
You say you know the Parable of the Four Soils then in the next breath talk about the "self professed believers" as though they were ever believers! They were not! Just as the first century Church was literally plagued by false teachers and false prophets -- all of whom were preaching and teaching an equally false gospel, then it stands to reason that many would buy into their teaching and preaching and deceive themselves into believing they were in the kingdom of God. The "tyrants and psychopaths" of whom you speak were never saved. They just thought they were. Very many of them will be in this group come judgement day:
Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
NIV
The fact that Christ could say that "I never knew you..." teaches that they were never saved. They never had saving knowledge of God or his Christ. All these self-deceived people in this passage had spurious faith.
And you may not know until judgment day or your death where you stand with your version of god....but I most certainly know where I stand right now with my God who has revealed himself to me experientially and biblically. My God is not a trickster or hoaxster or joker or mean-spirited as your god is. My God, who is loving, kind, patient, compassionate, merciful and gracious did not tell me: "Hey, Rufus, I have good news for you: If you believe the gospel, you have eternal life; but the bad news is, you still can't really know that until you give up the ghost! You have to live your entire life on earth in doubt until the day you die!"
Just in case you changed your mind and are holding your breath:
My post 666 (for brevity, only the germane portion included)
"If your belief were to be correct that salvation depends solely upon an individual's actions and choices "
Your post 625, which seems to fit your requirement of "show me where I said anything close" category that you requested.
"I am not sure how you are applying the word 'power' to God's grace here. I do believe we have a choice and I do believe God actually does bring us to the place where we do have that choice (accept Christ) unlike Calvinists who believe we have no choice. I think you may be conflating the word power with the understanding of grace, taking into consideration your highlighting of the word power. Indeed, power is not unmerited favor but it is not grace either. I don't think we will agree on that."
If you believe there is another way besides by a person's choice, let's hear it. Otherwise, the question to you remains:
how do those, who for reasons beyond their control are unable to choose, become saved? And if they are not saved,
then explain what happens to them?
My post 666 (for brevity, only the germane portion included)
"If your belief were to be correct that salvation depends solely upon an individual's actions and choices "
Your post 625, which seems to fit your requirement of "show me where I said anything close" category that you requested.
"I am not sure how you are applying the word 'power' to God's grace here. I do believe we have a choice and I do believe God actually does bring us to the place where we do have that choice (accept Christ) unlike Calvinists who believe we have no choice. I think you may be conflating the word power with the understanding of grace, taking into consideration your highlighting of the word power. Indeed, power is not unmerited favor but it is not grace either. I don't think we will agree on that."
If you believe there is another way besides by a person's choice, let's hear it. Otherwise, the question to you remains:
how do those, who for reasons beyond their control are unable to choose, become saved? And if they are not saved,
then explain what happens to them?
I am now going to press the point I made earlier today about the Parable of the Good Samaritan. According to the non-reformed here, if God empowered his elect to believe the gospel, that would make him a wicked, malevolent tyrant on one hand, and the recipients of that kind of saving grace would be characterized as nothing more than robots or puppets on a string. So...let's fly with this carnal, profane, ill-informed logic by looking at the the above mentioned parable:
Luke 10:29-35
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan , as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
NIV
It certainly appears from this parable that this Jew who was traveling to Jericho got himself into quite a pickle. He was not only robbed, and stripped of his clothes but the robbers also beat this poor man to an inch of his life, apparently. The text says that this Jewish fellow was left for "half dead". So, I don't think I would be exaggerating if I said this man was left in helpless state and the Samaritan who came to his aid literally rescued him. (And this is exactly what God did when he "came down" to "rescue" the helpless Jewish slaves in Egypt!) He took this poor soul under his wing, as it were. He not only ministered to him by taking care of all his wounds -- but his pity and mercy moved him to go even beyond that. He was so concerned about this man's welfare that he put him on his own donkey, took him to an inn and ministered to him some more. But he didn't stop there either. He cared so much for this poor victim that he paid for his lodging until he felt better to continue on his own -- and just in case the two silver coins weren't enough to cover the innkeeper's expenses, the Samaritan promised to settle up with him for any additional expenses he might incur.
One of the key takeaways (among many others) to this amazing parable is that this Samaritan was determined to finish the good work he had started with this helpless victim. The Samaritan was not going to leave any stone unturned. And this brings to mind this passage:
Phil 1:6
6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
NIV
This obviously was the mindset and heart-felt conviction of the Good Samaritan. He was going to complete what he started -- leaving nothing to chance with respect to this crime victim. Nor does God leave anything to chance! The Samaritan was determined to see his rescue mission through all the way to the end -- in the same way that an all-loving, all-good, all-righteous, all-holy, all-gracious, all-merciful, all-compassionate God ministers to his elect throughout their entire life to bring them safely to "the day of Christ Jesus".
So again, I would like for all non-reformed folks to answer these questions:
1. The parable does not teach that the Samaritan sought the permission of the victim. prior to ministering to him. So, how is the Good Samaritan not a wicked, tyrannical evildoer by presuming to impose himself into a stranger's life to help him, since this half dead victim's "free" will was not involved in the rescue mission ?
2. And how is that his half dead, helpless victim cannot be characterized as a mere "robot" since the Samaritan ministered to him whether the victim wanted him to or not?
3. And finally, if God doesn't do all this and much more for helpless, powerless elect sinners in Adam, then explain to me, please, how could God be more righteous than the Good Samaritan in the story is.
Luke 10:29-35
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan , as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
NIV
It certainly appears from this parable that this Jew who was traveling to Jericho got himself into quite a pickle. He was not only robbed, and stripped of his clothes but the robbers also beat this poor man to an inch of his life, apparently. The text says that this Jewish fellow was left for "half dead". So, I don't think I would be exaggerating if I said this man was left in helpless state and the Samaritan who came to his aid literally rescued him. (And this is exactly what God did when he "came down" to "rescue" the helpless Jewish slaves in Egypt!) He took this poor soul under his wing, as it were. He not only ministered to him by taking care of all his wounds -- but his pity and mercy moved him to go even beyond that. He was so concerned about this man's welfare that he put him on his own donkey, took him to an inn and ministered to him some more. But he didn't stop there either. He cared so much for this poor victim that he paid for his lodging until he felt better to continue on his own -- and just in case the two silver coins weren't enough to cover the innkeeper's expenses, the Samaritan promised to settle up with him for any additional expenses he might incur.
One of the key takeaways (among many others) to this amazing parable is that this Samaritan was determined to finish the good work he had started with this helpless victim. The Samaritan was not going to leave any stone unturned. And this brings to mind this passage:
Phil 1:6
6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
NIV
This obviously was the mindset and heart-felt conviction of the Good Samaritan. He was going to complete what he started -- leaving nothing to chance with respect to this crime victim. Nor does God leave anything to chance! The Samaritan was determined to see his rescue mission through all the way to the end -- in the same way that an all-loving, all-good, all-righteous, all-holy, all-gracious, all-merciful, all-compassionate God ministers to his elect throughout their entire life to bring them safely to "the day of Christ Jesus".
So again, I would like for all non-reformed folks to answer these questions:
1. The parable does not teach that the Samaritan sought the permission of the victim. prior to ministering to him. So, how is the Good Samaritan not a wicked, tyrannical evildoer by presuming to impose himself into a stranger's life to help him, since this half dead victim's "free" will was not involved in the rescue mission ?
2. And how is that his half dead, helpless victim cannot be characterized as a mere "robot" since the Samaritan ministered to him whether the victim wanted him to or not?
3. And finally, if God doesn't do all this and much more for helpless, powerless elect sinners in Adam, then explain to me, please, how could God be more righteous than the Good Samaritan in the story is.
Typical attempt to enter into a debate with not one, but two, individuals who refuse to address actual posts. As I stated, I said nothing even close to what Rogerg is suggesting.
Why don't you clean up your act and not address other believers as heretical or believing in some heresy. There is only one way to be saved and that is through Jesus Himself. Calvinism is not the way. Jesus is the Way.
Why don't you clean up your act and not address other believers as heretical or believing in some heresy. There is only one way to be saved and that is through Jesus Himself. Calvinism is not the way. Jesus is the Way.