I was wondering who believes you can get unsaved.
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The scriptures aren’t false and they say what they say
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
Hebrews 10:23-27 KJV
truth
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
Hebrews 10:23-27 KJV
truth
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The scriptures aren’t false and they say what they say
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
Hebrews 10:23-27 KJV
truth
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
Hebrews 10:23-27 KJV
truth
I love how you avoid what it says haha and try to twist what ot said there
Here’s a more modern version incase the kjv is confusing you
“If we willfully keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”
Hebrews 10:26-27 NIV
I notice these days a lot of people know a lot of things that are the opposite of what the Bible actually does say and when they hear it … they say “ that’s false and your a false teacher !”
seems odd come to a Bible discussion forum see quotes from the Bible clear and plain and then insist it’s false. a conundrum I’d say
Here’s a more modern version incase the kjv is confusing you
“If we willfully keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”
Hebrews 10:26-27 NIV
I notice these days a lot of people know a lot of things that are the opposite of what the Bible actually does say and when they hear it … they say “ that’s false and your a false teacher !”
seems odd come to a Bible discussion forum see quotes from the Bible clear and plain and then insist it’s false. a conundrum I’d say
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You're likely in a connundrum because picked cherry verses don't convey the intended message as it is otherwise understood when full chapter teachings are read in context.
I didn't avoid a thing,btw. It's your verse. You need to prove we can lose our salvation by posting scripture that actually proves your claim.
That verse does not. It cannot. In fact there is no such scripture.
Words have meaning?
Indeed they do. Irrevocable.
"....of all the father gives me I shall lose none."
"...no one shall take them from my hand."
I didn't avoid a thing,btw. It's your verse. You need to prove we can lose our salvation by posting scripture that actually proves your claim.
That verse does not. It cannot. In fact there is no such scripture.
Words have meaning?
Indeed they do. Irrevocable.
"....of all the father gives me I shall lose none."
"...no one shall take them from my hand."
I believe you are.That makes you a sheep.
Earlier, you left out the beginning of the Matthew 25 passage where Jesus separates the sheep and the goats. Only after this does He tell what the difference of the groups are. The sheep were busy about the Father's business because they were following the Shepherd, Who was also about the Father's business. Conversely, the goats were not busy doing the things to get them on the right side because they didn't hear the Shepherd's voice or follow Him.
It is always our connection to Christ that keeps us secure.
Earlier, you left out the beginning of the Matthew 25 passage where Jesus separates the sheep and the goats. Only after this does He tell what the difference of the groups are. The sheep were busy about the Father's business because they were following the Shepherd, Who was also about the Father's business. Conversely, the goats were not busy doing the things to get them on the right side because they didn't hear the Shepherd's voice or follow Him.
It is always our connection to Christ that keeps us secure.
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The sheep are judged righteous because of thier actions
“for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”
Matthew 25:35-36, 40 KJV
The other group refused to help anyone wit thier actions it says all the same but they didn’t do any of it
when Christ returns we have to be judged on what we have done but brother listen to the judge we have to later see
“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:36-38
We can arrive at judgement having been merciful and forgiving and his eternal and unchanging word will hold up . And that’s how we’ll be judged . If we hear and believe him we’ll be alright the issue is this
This is true it’s Jesus teaching us about God
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
the issue is when we then explain why “that’s not true why it doesn’t apply why that’s not how it is I’m already saved m already forgiven I don’t need to forgive if I don’t he will it’s all the cross ect ect “
instead we need to learn ot and agree and say “ of course Jesus knows how God is more than I do of course he knows salvstion better than I do he’s right let me accept that as my own view my own understanding “
its when we actually hear it and accept it as the truth the effect is a call to repentance if I’m not a forgiving person I need to believe and start forgiving because it’s going to affect ME and my destination. This according to jesus the judge and lord of all .
It’s not about Moses law it’s about Jesus word . It’s different completely we need desperately to hear the gospel and believe and follow after what he taught it’s all the ultimate truth about eternal life with him
“for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”
Matthew 25:35-36, 40 KJV
The other group refused to help anyone wit thier actions it says all the same but they didn’t do any of it
when Christ returns we have to be judged on what we have done but brother listen to the judge we have to later see
“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:36-38
We can arrive at judgement having been merciful and forgiving and his eternal and unchanging word will hold up . And that’s how we’ll be judged . If we hear and believe him we’ll be alright the issue is this
This is true it’s Jesus teaching us about God
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
the issue is when we then explain why “that’s not true why it doesn’t apply why that’s not how it is I’m already saved m already forgiven I don’t need to forgive if I don’t he will it’s all the cross ect ect “
instead we need to learn ot and agree and say “ of course Jesus knows how God is more than I do of course he knows salvstion better than I do he’s right let me accept that as my own view my own understanding “
its when we actually hear it and accept it as the truth the effect is a call to repentance if I’m not a forgiving person I need to believe and start forgiving because it’s going to affect ME and my destination. This according to jesus the judge and lord of all .
It’s not about Moses law it’s about Jesus word . It’s different completely we need desperately to hear the gospel and believe and follow after what he taught it’s all the ultimate truth about eternal life with him
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Brother there are no actual sheep sheep and goats is a reference to the two groups of people . The ones who did the good works and cares for others and the other group who didn’t .
It’s like a parable type saying not a literal one it’s just saying the same thing paul said this same thing
“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
( sheep he gives them eternal life )to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
( goats ) but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:5-11 KJV
It’s the exact same teaching in a different parabolic form showing sheep on one side being seperwted from the goats on the other they aren’t saved because he said they are sheep and the others aren’t doomed because he said they are goats it’s what he’s saying it’s based on thoer deeds one group loves others in thier actions the other group didn’t thier the goats
I feel like your having a chicken v the egg argument but all I was ever saying was the Bible tells us exactly how we’re going to be judged by who by what word when ect
I feel like a long time ago when we talked about “ election “ we’ve never really gotten past that yet . That gospel of grace that people teach now days that removes Jesus word from everything and all the terms he set is a bad deal
It’s like a parable type saying not a literal one it’s just saying the same thing paul said this same thing
“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
( sheep he gives them eternal life )to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
( goats ) but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:5-11 KJV
It’s the exact same teaching in a different parabolic form showing sheep on one side being seperwted from the goats on the other they aren’t saved because he said they are sheep and the others aren’t doomed because he said they are goats it’s what he’s saying it’s based on thoer deeds one group loves others in thier actions the other group didn’t thier the goats
I feel like your having a chicken v the egg argument but all I was ever saying was the Bible tells us exactly how we’re going to be judged by who by what word when ect
I feel like a long time ago when we talked about “ election “ we’ve never really gotten past that yet . That gospel of grace that people teach now days that removes Jesus word from everything and all the terms he set is a bad deal
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Sheep hear His voice. Sheep follow Him.
Goats don't hear His voice, don't follow.
Sheep do sheep things.
Goats do goat things.
Jesus seeks and saves sheep.
No record of Jesus seeking and saving goats. No record of Jesus changing goats into sheep.
Sheep do the things that lead to life.
Goats do the things that lead to death.
Before you were saved, you did what you wanted. Since you've been saved, you've done the things the Shepherd wanted.
Every sheep will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. Not one will be lost. Why? Because the Good Shepherd takes responsibility for His sheep.
So...what is true of you? Are you being led by the Shepherd? Can you hear His voice? Are you helping the people that you are led to? Do you seek His kingdom and His righteousness? Is all this because He sought you out and saved you or because you went looking for Him? Is this because you loved Him or because He first set His affection upon you? Are the changes wrought in you because you changed your heart or because God is willing and doing things in you?
It is a little bit of chicken and egg. Is it because of us or because of God? I say it's all because of God. You are free to believe as you will.
As always, appreciate both the content and tone of the discussion.
Goats don't hear His voice, don't follow.
Sheep do sheep things.
Goats do goat things.
Jesus seeks and saves sheep.
No record of Jesus seeking and saving goats. No record of Jesus changing goats into sheep.
Sheep do the things that lead to life.
Goats do the things that lead to death.
Before you were saved, you did what you wanted. Since you've been saved, you've done the things the Shepherd wanted.
Every sheep will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. Not one will be lost. Why? Because the Good Shepherd takes responsibility for His sheep.
So...what is true of you? Are you being led by the Shepherd? Can you hear His voice? Are you helping the people that you are led to? Do you seek His kingdom and His righteousness? Is all this because He sought you out and saved you or because you went looking for Him? Is this because you loved Him or because He first set His affection upon you? Are the changes wrought in you because you changed your heart or because God is willing and doing things in you?
It is a little bit of chicken and egg. Is it because of us or because of God? I say it's all because of God. You are free to believe as you will.
As always, appreciate both the content and tone of the discussion.
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Jesus came to save everyone but some refuse the truth….
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:3-4 KJV
Some though are here they refuse to accept the truth
“and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”
2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV
Why ? Because they didn’t receive a love of the truth so they could be saved not because God never came to save them …that idea that God didn’t come to save some only a certain group has you unable to hear
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
Every creature not just “ sheep “ whoever believes ….some hear the gospel and they have other designs
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:3-4 KJV
Some though are here they refuse to accept the truth
“and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”
2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV
Why ? Because they didn’t receive a love of the truth so they could be saved not because God never came to save them …that idea that God didn’t come to save some only a certain group has you unable to hear
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
Every creature not just “ sheep “ whoever believes ….some hear the gospel and they have other designs
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I agree that the gospel is for all people. I also believe God desires all to be saved.
It's an interesting verse you share in 2 Thessalonians. It says they didn't receive the love of the truth. Does this mean that the love of the truth is something outside of a person? Is God it's source? Was it not received because it wasn't extended? Was it offered but wasn't accepted? Is there something necessary for one to receive it? Is receiving passive and secured by the actions of another? Is the receiving active and a deliberate acceptance?
I ask these questions because one's answers reveal whether they believe that salvation is determined by the work of God or the response of man. In other words, God decides or man decides. I recognize this is a divisive issue within Christianity, but it's worth exploring what the word says about receiving. John 1:12 says that as many as received Him were given power to become the sons of God. Verse 13 goes on to state that this is not caused by the will of man, but is a decision and action of God.
This is my understanding of what happens or doesn't happen and why.
It's an interesting verse you share in 2 Thessalonians. It says they didn't receive the love of the truth. Does this mean that the love of the truth is something outside of a person? Is God it's source? Was it not received because it wasn't extended? Was it offered but wasn't accepted? Is there something necessary for one to receive it? Is receiving passive and secured by the actions of another? Is the receiving active and a deliberate acceptance?
I ask these questions because one's answers reveal whether they believe that salvation is determined by the work of God or the response of man. In other words, God decides or man decides. I recognize this is a divisive issue within Christianity, but it's worth exploring what the word says about receiving. John 1:12 says that as many as received Him were given power to become the sons of God. Verse 13 goes on to state that this is not caused by the will of man, but is a decision and action of God.
This is my understanding of what happens or doesn't happen and why.
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“. It says they didn't receive the love of the truth. Does this mean that the love of the truth is something outside of a person?”
The doctrine always comes from what Jesus said first
“ Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. “
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
They rejected the gospel in other words rejected Jesus words that he came into the world they didn’t live the truth but understand what that’s meaning “love “ in the bi ke isn’t like we think of the warm fuzzy feeling it’s coming from the gospel always so we look and see what Jesus established
When we reject this concept we’re refusing the love of the truth
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”
John 14:6-7, 21, 23-24 KJV
We’re meant to learn what Jesus said and then the epistles make perfect sense because they are speaking from the gospel and what’s established in it
They don’t acknolwedge the truth and accept repentance offered in the gospel
“in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
2 Timothy 2:25-26
See tha anction and reaction ? We acknowledge the truth God grants repentance ….the truth is the gospel
The doctrine always comes from what Jesus said first
“ Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. “
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
They rejected the gospel in other words rejected Jesus words that he came into the world they didn’t live the truth but understand what that’s meaning “love “ in the bi ke isn’t like we think of the warm fuzzy feeling it’s coming from the gospel always so we look and see what Jesus established
When we reject this concept we’re refusing the love of the truth
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”
John 14:6-7, 21, 23-24 KJV
We’re meant to learn what Jesus said and then the epistles make perfect sense because they are speaking from the gospel and what’s established in it
They don’t acknolwedge the truth and accept repentance offered in the gospel
“in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
2 Timothy 2:25-26
See tha anction and reaction ? We acknowledge the truth God grants repentance ….the truth is the gospel
1 John 5:11-13 + John 6:47 ~ This is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Where is the scripture in the Bible that says we do not have free will or teaches we do not have free will? Did Jesus the good shepherd force the “lost sheep” to leave the fold and get lost or did he leave of his own free will? Luke 15. You gave no scripture to sustain your position.
Romans 6 talks about US presenting OUR MEMBERS to either sin or righteousness. The choice is ours who we serve. God does not force us to serve Him. In the Old Testament, God wanted free Will offerings and sacrifices. Leviticus 22:29; “With a loyal heart, they offered WILLINGLY.” Psalm 119:108; Psalm 19:5 and Leviticus 22:19-“ You shall offer of your OWN FREE WILL.” 1 Chron. 29:9-“they offered willingly; Ezra 2:68; 1Chron. 29:17; Exodus 25:2-“ Moses told the people they must give offerings “willingly with their heart.” And in 2 Chron. 17:16 we have a man who “WILLINGLY OFFERED HIMSELF TO THE LORD.” God has always wanted free Will service from mankind. Not “robots” who have no choice but to obey. Roman’s 12 we are to present our bodies a living sacrifice to God—what kind of sacrifice do you think he wants from us?? It is a meaningless sacrifice if we have no choice but to serve him. That would not have pleased Him in the old testament with His people the Jews, AND it is not what He wants from people today. He has always wanted people who were willing to serve him with their whole heart and that means free choice—not coercion.
Romans 6 talks about US presenting OUR MEMBERS to either sin or righteousness. The choice is ours who we serve. God does not force us to serve Him. In the Old Testament, God wanted free Will offerings and sacrifices. Leviticus 22:29; “With a loyal heart, they offered WILLINGLY.” Psalm 119:108; Psalm 19:5 and Leviticus 22:19-“ You shall offer of your OWN FREE WILL.” 1 Chron. 29:9-“they offered willingly; Ezra 2:68; 1Chron. 29:17; Exodus 25:2-“ Moses told the people they must give offerings “willingly with their heart.” And in 2 Chron. 17:16 we have a man who “WILLINGLY OFFERED HIMSELF TO THE LORD.” God has always wanted free Will service from mankind. Not “robots” who have no choice but to obey. Roman’s 12 we are to present our bodies a living sacrifice to God—what kind of sacrifice do you think he wants from us?? It is a meaningless sacrifice if we have no choice but to serve him. That would not have pleased Him in the old testament with His people the Jews, AND it is not what He wants from people today. He has always wanted people who were willing to serve him with their whole heart and that means free choice—not coercion.
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