"Textus Receptus"

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NitzWalsh

Guest
#21
Not to nit pick, but I don't think that would ever happen with a modern Bible. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between type and handwriting.
I know it would be easier to tell the difference now, but that's exactly what's happened in the past with the hand copied manuscripts... I was making a perfectly valid point about the subject at hand.

Besides, back when they hand copied manuscripts the copiers would take care to keep things nice and neat and in line, and their notes would be on the side, or beneath a line and written with less care, but those notes still sometimes found their way into future manuscripts, despite people being able to tell the difference in handwriting.
 
S

SantoSubito

Guest
#22
I know it would be easier to tell the difference now, but that's exactly what's happened in the past with the hand copied manuscripts... I was making a perfectly valid point about the subject at hand.

Besides, back when they hand copied manuscripts the copiers would take care to keep things nice and neat and in line, and their notes would be on the side, or beneath a line and written with less care, but those notes still sometimes found their way into future manuscripts, despite people being able to tell the difference in handwriting.
Actually the biggest thing that led to these errors was that many of the monks copying these manuscripts couldn't read, they were just copying the symbols. Had they been able to read the mistake likely would have been avoided.

But I do get the point you were making. I was just being difficult I guess.
 
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#23
I sat upon a mountain top, and what did I see.
I saw Lord God Almighty silently talking to me.
His love endure's to every generation.
Why sat and scoff when you see radiation.
Look deep and wide, perhaps you will find.
Christ Jesus has always been right by your side.
 
N

NitzWalsh

Guest
#24
Actually the biggest thing that led to these errors was that many of the monks copying these manuscripts couldn't read, they were just copying the symbols. Had they been able to read the mistake likely would have been avoided.

But I do get the point you were making. I was just being difficult I guess.
Not being able to read was probably a good thing when copying, because they're just drawing what they see and not thinking about what it says and putting in words of their own.
 
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#25
The Received Text, or the "Textus Receptus"
Luther W. Martin
Rolla, Missouri

* Elzevir's second edition, published in 1633.
* The Greek Text of Stephanus, 1550, was essentially the same
* This basic text also the basis for the Latin Vulgate as translated by Jerome, just before 400 A.D.
* It continued to be the basis for the Vulgate down through the Douay-Rheims Translation of 1582 and
1609 A.D.

* The English versions of the New Testament was completed by John Wycliffe in the year 1380. It was
translated from the Latin Vulgate, and contained a number of defects.

* The next English Translation was that of William Tyndale.

* the same goal . . . that of making it possible for the English plough-boy to become more familiar with
the Holy Scriptures than were those of the Roman priesthood.

* While Tyndale was at Cambridge, that Erasmus published his Greek Testament in 1516. Some nine
years later, Tyndale published his first English New Testament, with a second, slightly revised edition in
1534. Tyndale's work was based upon the received text, of the Greek, including the Latin text of
Erasmus and the German Translation by Martin Luther, that had just been published in 1522.

* It has been stated that 80 percent of the words of Tyndale were used in the 1881 English Revised
Version.

* Meanwhile, the Great Bible was published in 1539-40, based upon the commonly received text.
* So was the Geneva Bible of 1560-62.
* So was the Bishops' Bible of 1568-1602.
* So was the King James Version of 1611.

Gradually A Few Scholars Question The Textus Receptus
* Although the Greek Text of Stephanus (1550) was followed in England, and the text by Elzevir was
followed on the European Continent, there were scholars who ultimately compared more and more Greek
manuscripts of the New Testament as they were discovered.

* Brian Walton, edited a Polyglott Bible, in Greek, Persian, Ethiopic, Latin and Syriac. The Greek text
was that of Stephanus. This five language Bible was published in 1657.

* A John Fell, who later became Bishop of Oxford, published a work in which he compared approximately
100 different manuscripts, in 1675.

* Dr. John Mill published an edition of Stephanus' Text in 1707, and added to it, the variations found in
seventy eight different manuscripts.

* An L. Kuster of Rotterdam modified Mill's work, and added the comparison of some twelve more
manuscripts. This was in 1710.

* J.A. Bengel, the author of Bengel's Gnomon, in 1734 published a New Testament at Tubingen,
Germany, in which he collated a number of variations in readings in the New Testament.

* Although there were others, the more impressive works were those of Griesbach (1805), Lachmann
(1842-50), Tischendorf (1865-1872), Tregelles (1857-1872), Alford (1862-1871), and Wordsworth (1870).

Westcott and Hort
* The two scholars who accomplished the most in erasing the influence of the Textus Receptus, were
Brooke Foss Westcott, and Fenton John Anthony Hort.

* Hort in 1851 that he considered the Textus Receptus "vile" and "villainous," yet admitted in the same
writing that he had read "so little Greek Testament."

* He also told a friend that he and Westcott would have a new Greek Testament issued in a little more
than a year. That was in 1853 . . . but they did not publish their new text until some twenty-eight years
had elapsed.

* Hort was no doubt greatly influenced by Tischendorf's discovery, of the Codex Sinaiticus in 1844.

* Also by this time, the Roman Catholic Church was allowing scholars to study the Codex Vaticanus,
which had previously been denied to non-Catholic scholars.

* It has been surmised that both of these manuscripts may have been among the fifty manuscripts that
Emperor Constantine ordered to be made during his reign as Emperor of Rome.

* These two manuscripts show signs of having been "worked on" by the same copyist. So it is quite likely
that they came from one single source

* But Westcott and Hort concluded that the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus were older and far superior in
purity, nearer to the original New Testament writings . . . so they rejected the Textus Receptus, totally,
and cast their lot with these two writings that they concluded to be the better.

* But during this one hundred years, numerous papyri have been found that have disproven the W-H
theories. These papyri, in many instances have shown the Textus Receptus (commonly termed the
Byzantine Text) to be the more harmonious with some manuscripts that are also older, and thus nearer in
point of time, to the Apostolic Autographs of the New Testament.

Manuscript Comparison Chart
...

Conclusion

* The textual history history that the WestcottHort text represents is no longer tenable in the light of
newer discoveries and fuller textual analysis.

* Our conclusions concerning the theory of necessity apply also to any Greek text constructed on the
basis of it, as well as to those versions based upon such texts (and to commentaries based upon them).

* On page 92, Mr. Pickering also wrote, "The evidence before us indicates that Hort's history never was
tenable."

* It is my hope that students of the Bible will resume their respect and appreciation for the Majority
Text, the Textus Receptus.

Guardian of Truth XXIX: 1, pp. 3, 22-23
January 3, 1985

The Received Text, or the "Textus Receptus"

I broke the opening post down into a series of statements, I hope without losing key
meanings. I think I will use them to update the graphic chart posted above.

I would like to see more posts and discussion on Sinaiticus and Vaticanus to nail the coffin
shut on those. There are many web sites online that discuss them. My King James Study
Bible indicates over 5000 reference texts that have been reviewed to include footnotes
and margin notes as to textual differences among the originals.

THIS IS VERY SIGNIFICANT TO BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIANS. THERE ARE ENEMIES
AMONGST US, WOLVES AND SERPENTS, ROARING LIONS, PHARISEES, TALMUDISTS, FALSE
PREACHERS, who would like to change the truth of God into a lie (Romans 1:25).


The NKJV has been corrupted as have the NIV, NASV, NRSV, RSV)

Romans 1:25 in the King James Bible is clear that the ungodly corrupt the Word of God in
an attempt to justify their sins.
 
May 2, 2011
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#26
TRANSLATION CHART FOR FURTHER REVIEW AND COMMENT:

(Does this one just muddy the waters more? The names and dates are important, but the
linkages are lacking I believe -- where is the Textus Receptus?)
I will try to merge these
and others after additional research and study -- please comment on what the ultimate
Translation Chart would look like.

 
N

NitzWalsh

Guest
#27
I broke the opening post down into a series of statements, I hope without losing key
meanings. I think I will use them to update the graphic chart posted above.

I would like to see more posts and discussion on Sinaiticus and Vaticanus to nail the coffin
shut on those. There are many web sites online that discuss them. My King James Study
Bible indicates over 5000 reference texts that have been reviewed to include footnotes
and margin notes as to textual differences among the originals.

THIS IS VERY SIGNIFICANT TO BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIANS. THERE ARE ENEMIES
AMONGST US, WOLVES AND SERPENTS, ROARING LIONS, PHARISEES, TALMUDISTS, FALSE
PREACHERS, who would like to change the truth of God into a lie (Romans 1:25).


The NKJV has been corrupted as have the NIV, NASV, NRSV, RSV)

Romans 1:25 in the King James Bible is clear that the ungodly corrupt the Word of God in
an attempt to justify their sins.

The New World Translation made by Jehovah's Witnesses uses Wescott and Hort as the base for its NT, not sure what they used for the OT. I had a copy of a Wescott and Hort Diaglot, with the Greek text over the English words that the Jehovah's Witnesses chose to use. They praise the work of Wescott and Hort so much it's almost like if they canonized saints like the Catholics do, they'd have statues of them somewhere. I started hearing negative comments about the Westcott and Hort texts when I was looking into leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I just watched a series of videos on the history of bible translations, about 6 and a half hours long... Made for the 400th Anniversary of the KJV. It talked about how they had access to some of the manuscripts used by Westcott and Hort before they produced the KJV, but they knew then that they were corrupted so they elected to not use them for the bible translation.
 
May 2, 2011
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#28
The New World Translation made by Jehovah's Witnesses uses Wescott and Hort as the base for its NT, not sure what they used for the OT. I had a copy of a Wescott and Hort Diaglot, with the Greek text over the English words that the Jehovah's Witnesses chose to use. They praise the work of Wescott and Hort so much it's almost like if they canonized saints like the Catholics do, they'd have statues of them somewhere. I started hearing negative comments about the Westcott and Hort texts when I was looking into leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I just watched a series of videos on the history of bible translations, about 6 and a half hours long... Made for the 400th Anniversary of the KJV. It talked about how they had access to some of the manuscripts used by Westcott and Hort before they produced the KJV, but they knew then that they were corrupted so they elected to not use them for the bible translation.

I don't see the NWT in the diagram below, will be sure it is included in any comprehensive
chart that is made.

I was thinking on adding (in addition to the historical dates and names of the Bible
Translations), other historical elements within say 50 years +/- of the translation event
such as:

* Wars and other Secular Pivotal events (great plagues, economic oppression that led to
emmigration/immigration and etc.)
* Papal Decrees and other RCC related events
*Reformation activity, e.g. especially where major doctrines were developed, such as
Calvinism, Spurgeon, Finney, Joe Smith, Ellen White etc, etc.

Please add more (and comment on those items I would add)


 
May 2, 2011
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#30
WHERE IS MOUNT SINAI (from whence came SINAITICUS CODEX)?

How did Mount Sinai come to be misidentified at its present location? (St.Catherines Monastery in Egypt)


The most prominent source for the misidentification of today's supposed location of
Mount Sinai is Helena, the mother of the Roman Emperor, Constantine. Early in the Fourth
Century, CE, after Constantine decreed Christianity to be the "NEW" official, state-
sponsored religion of the Roman Empire, his mother went gadding-about the Holy Land
region selecting physical and geographic locations of notable Biblical events.

Much to her shame and ignominy, Helena did not have a clue as to any of the authentic
Biblical sites. And, for the location of Mount Sinai, it is apparent she certainly did not
bother consulting the Books Of Exodus and Galatians in the Christian Holy Scriptures.
Rather than seek dependable and accurate information from the source-manual of
Christianity (The Bible), Helena depended upon information from whomsoever was at
hand, in a land nearly devoid of both Christians and Jews, 300 years after the time of
Christ Jesus, as she noted the locations of various and dubious shrines purporting to have
been constructed at authentic Biblical locations.


Adding to Helena's confusion, there were competing, duplicate shrines from which to
choose.

For the most significant locations of important Biblical events, Helena's choices were so
very wrong as to be scandalous.

Not only did she misidentify the location of Calvary by more than a mile, but she also
misidentified the location of Mount Sinai by more than 100 miles.

It is clearly indicated in The Book Of Exodus that the Israelites completely departed the
lands controlled by Egypt and sojourned onward to the land of Midian (outside Egyptian
dominion) before receiving the Ten Commandments. Today's Sinai peninsula was within
the borders and control of ancient Egypt, and in order to completely depart from Egypt,
the Israelites had to depart, completely, from the Sinai peninsula also. It is not physically
possible for the Israelites to both encamp at the mountain falsely called Sinai in Egypt,
and to completely depart from Egypt at the same time.


The Bible does not suggest that the Israelites crossed the Red Sea twice. And to get to
Midian, while completely departing Egypt, the Israelites first had to journey down the
western side of the Sinai peninsula and cross the Red Sea near the peninsula's
southernmost tip, where the Red Sea meets the Gulf Of Aqaba. Since the Bible reports
that God would not permit the Israelites to take an easterly route out of Egypt, the only
other way to Midian was southbound, along the eastern shore of the Red Sea. The
Israelites had, first, requested to be allowed to leave Egypt, whereas, after the ten
plagues, Pharaoh ordered the Israelites to leave Egypt, completely and entirely.


The MAIN reason that today's, supposed, location of Mount Sinai, on the Egyptian Sinai
peninsula, can not possibly be correct is that today's, supposed, location is within what
was ancient Egypt, and not within what was ancient Midian.


In the northwestern corner of today's Saudi Arabia, sits a mountain that perfectly fits the
Biblical description of Mount Sinai. And if Constantine's mother would have availed herself
of the information in the Bible, Helena would have been enabled to pick a location for
Mount Sinai that was, at least, within ancient Midian. There IS a mountain within what
once was ancient Midian that today's Saudi Arabians call "Jebel al Lawz", the mountain of
The Law (or, the mountain of The Tablets, upon which The Ten Commandments were
written). The Saudis enthusiastically acknowledge that "Jebel al Lawz" is definitely the
location of the Biblical Mount Sinai.


Furthermore, the physical description of the mountain and the area surrounding it
conform to the Biblical description perfectly. That mountain, in today's northwestern
Saudi Arabia, is a non-volcanic mountain which has a blackened top. The mountain
appears to have been burnt with fire all over its topmost 25%, which perfectly fits the
Biblical description. And, the area immediately surrounding the mountain has enough
level plains to provide space for the encampment of up to two million people, a number of
people in agreement with the Bible, the potential number of sojourners from out of Egypt.
Plus, the mountain in Saudi Arabia has archaeological artifacts conforming to Biblical
descriptions; e.g. twelve impressively large, obviously man-made, stone pillars,
extremely ancient petroglyphs, etc.


The supposed, misidentified Mount Sinai, in Egypt's Sinai peninsula, possesses absolutely
NONE of these features. The mountain falsely called Sinai, in Egypt, is not in ancient Midian;
it does not have a blackened top; it does not have enough level plains surrounding it to
permit the encampment of two thousand people, much less two million; and it does not
reveal any 3,500-years-old archaeological artifacts of any kind whatsoever.


The REAL, genuine, authentic Mount Sinai is in northwestern Saudi Arabia, the land of
ancient Midian, NOT in Egypt's Sinai peninsula!
Reference Link -->> WHERE IS MOUNT SINAI? - WHERE IS MOUNT HOREB OF THE EXODUS?

Good supporting article, with maps and scriptural references as well as historical analysis
- Recommended Reading - is at this link:
Link -->> Mount Sinai and the Apostle Paul - Ancient Exodus - Understanding the Route of the Exodus

For an opposing view, see the link:
Link -->> Life and Land Blog Archive MT. SINAI IS NOT AT JEBEL EL-LAWZ IN SAUDI ARABIA – part 1

MAP BELOW:

The ApostlePaul, writing in the first century A.D., seems to have understood the location
of Mount Sinai relative to Jerusalem, according to Galatians 4:24-26.
Although the “Old Testament” account of the Exodus has been a popular topic of study,
the New Testament (NT) references to the Exodus are often overlooked. The NT writers
confirm the historicity of the Exodus, but their discussion of its geography is scanty. The
NT only mentions Mount Sinai four times (Acts 7:30, 38; Galatians 4:24, 25), the Red Sea
twice (Acts 7:36; Heb. 11:29), Arabia twice (Galatians 1:17; 4:25), and Midian once (Acts
7:29).
The most interesting comments about Mount Sinai were made by the ApostlePaul in his
letter to the Galatians:
22 “For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid,
the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born
after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things
are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount
Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar [Hagar]. 25 For this Agar
is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in
bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is
the mother of us all.” (Galatians 4:22-26 KJV)
Although these lines are easily glossed over as only spiritual allegory, the Greek text uses
two distinctly geographical terms to refer to Mount Sinai. Is it possible that these verses
provide geographical insight about the location of Mount Sinai?

“Answereth,” the first key term in the KJV, is translated from the Greek word sustoicheo.
Its only NT occurrence is in Galatians 4:25. The meaning of sustoicheo carries the sense of
corresponding, as in soldiers filing together in ranks (Strong 1990, #4960). Aristotle used
“sustoichos,” another form of the word, in the geographical sense of “standing on the
same row or coordinate” (Liddell and Scott 2000, 783). Sustoichia, also used by Aristotle,
has the meaning of “a coordinate series” (ibid.). Hence, this word was useful for describing
linear spatial relationships in geographical or military applications.

Paul’s use of sustoicheo seems to have been intended to refer to the position Mount Sinai
relative to Jerusalem. In modern parlance, instead of sustoicheo, we might say that
Jerusalem and Mount Sinai were on the same parallel of latitude or on the same meridian
of longitude.

 
May 2, 2011
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#31
WHERE IS MOUNT SINAI (from whence came SINAITICUS CODEX)?

How did Mount Sinai come to be misidentified at its present location? (St.Catherines Monastery in Egypt)



Make that the Great Pyramid AS the Altar/Temple, not the Great Sphinx which is just in front of it.
 
May 2, 2011
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#32
Textual variants in the Bible

Most of the text variants are minor. The problem then becomes with Textual Translation
approach and mindset - a consideration in Hermeneutics. If we open the Bible with a
preconceived notion that God is:

* MONEY or materialism, (mammon)
* LAW (JEHOVAH = cops, lawyers, judges, government, and legalistic religions)
* a NAME or the name of a system (HASHEM as god) -- this would include any icon or symbol
* ORGANIZED CRIME (there are many forms) - (ADONAI)
* LABOR/WORK/UNIONS (ELOI)
* RELIGION (ELI)
* JEZEBEL (Feminism, Hellenism)
* IDOLATRY (BAAL)

or any other false god or system, we try to READ INTO THE TEXT what our preconditioned
mind
already wants to make it. We must step back, get into the spirit of Jesus, and open
our minds to the revelation of truth. The newer translations tend to do this, with a
preconditioned mind towards old testament gods.

Textual variants in the Bible
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxyxnwFr9mQ[/video]
 
May 2, 2011
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#33
A modest introduction to issues in TEXTUAL CRITICISM:


textual criticism Part 1 of 3
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqZadL-f7wc[/video]

textual criticism Part 2 of 3
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCyRq7YmUfw[/video]

textual criticism Part 3 of 3
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itlG3Xg6nkk[/video]
 
N

NitzWalsh

Guest
#35
A modest introduction to issues in TEXTUAL CRITICISM:


I found these videos to be annoying to watch, good information, just couldn't sit through 30 minutes listening to that guy.

The other video on textual variants was good though.
 
May 2, 2011
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#37
[/center]

I found these videos to be annoying to watch, good information, just couldn't sit through 30 minutes listening to that guy.

The other video on textual variants was good though.
Most people can't sit through a 40 minute church service, so no big surprise there. I will say
they are worth looking at (or I wouldn't have posted them, and I reviewed a dozen or so
similar topics before choosing these). Take them one at a time, 10 minutes you can force
yourself through. I didn't want to get too academic and these looked like a good overview.


 
May 2, 2011
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#38
It'd like to get a list of what vital doctrines are attacked in each translation.
There are a number of web sites that list comparisons of the various Bible Translation
versions. Most are not doctrinal, but those that are deal with topical issues such as the deity
of Jesus, the need for regeneration and repentance and similar important doctrines. I might
do a few quick searches and see if I can find a good summary in order to wrap up (my
contribution to) this discussion.
It seems like an entire school of thought in replacing
words in order to make a new (or return to an old) set of doctrines. As mentioned in the
first video, the majority of changes are minor, and it is why the King James Version seems
to be the better translation. A good Study Bible version of the King James simply notes
the majority of these differences in the footnotes



 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#39
There are a number of web sites that list comparisons of the various Bible Translation
versions. Most are not doctrinal, but those that are deal with topical issues such as the deity
of Jesus, the need for regeneration and repentance and similar important doctrines. I might
do a few quick searches and see if I can find a good summary in order to wrap up (my
contribution to) this discussion.
It seems like an entire school of thought in replacing
words in order to make a new (or return to an old) set of doctrines. As mentioned in the
first video, the majority of changes are minor, and it is why the King James Version seems
to be the better translation.
A good Study Bible version of the King James simply notes
the majority of these differences in the footnotes

I agree that the KJV is better some words have been added by the translators but they show you which ones by putting them in italics.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]NIV[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Whole Verses Omitted[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 17:21 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 18:11 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 23:14[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Mark 7:16 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 9:44 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 9:46 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 11:26 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 15:28[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luke 17:36[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 23:17[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] John 5:4 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 8:37[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 15:34[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 24:7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 28:29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Romans 16:24 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 John 5:7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Verses omitted 17[/FONT]

There is also a total of 180 potions of verses missing in the NIV in the NT
 
N

NitzWalsh

Guest
#40
I agree that the KJV is better some words have been added by the translators but they show you which ones by putting them in italics.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]NIV[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Whole Verses Omitted[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 17:21 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 18:11 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 23:14[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Mark 7:16 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 9:44 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 9:46 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 11:26 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 15:28[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luke 17:36[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 23:17[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] John 5:4 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 8:37[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 15:34[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 24:7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 28:29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Romans 16:24 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 John 5:7[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Verses omitted 17[/FONT]

There is also a total of 180 potions of verses missing in the NIV in the NT

The NIV is kind enough to include those missing verses in the footnotes though, which is kind of them.