The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation

[Pilgrimshope]

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Exactly and so why is this stuff preached to the church ? Who aren’t living all perfect and righteously and haven’t realized what actually been done for them ?

why would owul waste a chapter and a half on this

“God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

( if we don’t know this kind of thing we can’t believe it into righteousness or act in it we change by faith as we learn more of Christ and the gospel )

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: ( a proactive teaching an assertive one. Empowering one . bit often we dismiss it before it sinks in )

but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:2-7, 11-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we don’t allow this kind of stuff to be the truth in our beliefs it will not work to change us . But if we begin letting the actual doctrine sink in and be true . That’s how we begin to understand we aren’t who we used to be we’re new creations no longer ensnared

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I almost cried after writing that. The last thing I want is to fight with you.
I need shorter to-the-point-answers at my advanced age...

We aren’t fighting dear sister lol don’t fret I’m not offended in any way . It’s ok we don’t have to solve every biblical issue that exists haha . I still love and adore you in Christ and if it’s allowed someday a good coffee and chat at a breakfast shop somewhere in eternity will be egg stremely appreciated

( you never know lol a whole new earth maybe some decaf

 

[Magenta]

We aren’t fighting dear sister lol don’t fret I’m not offended in any way . It’s ok we don’t have to solve every biblical issue that exists haha . I still love and adore you in Christ and if it’s allowed someday a good coffee and chat at a breakfast shop somewhere in eternity will be egg stremely appreciated

( you never know lol a whole new earth maybe some decaf

No, no, no, I need caffeine! LOL Dear brother, I had felt challenged for the last couple of days in how to answer your posts to me, without it coming across cross, and it was very frustrating feeling like I could not address things you'd said without it appearing pugilistic or petty to point out one thing after another. There appears to be a great divide. On one side we have people saying God is unfair and an unjust tyrant if He does the very thing the Bible shows Him doing over and over and over again throughout history. We cannot come without being drawn, those given to Jesus will come, how can one even know God is drawing them if they are spiritually dead to Him and unable to receive the things of God? This is not being forced; some seem to hate that God's grace is irresistible, why??? Why when one finally understands the truth and is enabled to choose rightly is it called being forced, or a violation of one's free will? Yet what other choice does one have in that moment? We are all at that point like Peter, asking where else would we go, Lord? Wisdom embraces truth. One of my church elders used to say, when I would ask certain very pointed questions, it is both, and. Haha. I kind of hated that answer then but I find it to be so, now. There are none righteous, the world is blinded, God DID allow this, yes men chose, and their choices have led them into being slaves to sin and captive to the will of the devil, lovers of darkness, suppressing the truth, because all have turned away. The work God does in us, the work He did in me, opening my eyes, unstopping my ears, circumcising my heart, I am so grateful for, and am flummoxed that others despise the facts that bring people to the point of surrender so they may glory in the goodness and greatness of God despite who we are as lowly men. Man is not that bad they say. Psssshh. What world are they living in? Thank God for what beauty there is when there is so much pain and suffering everywhere we turn. Thank you for the patience and grace you show me...

I was showing this panel in another thread, and explaining a bit of the work I did with the figure etc to get the result I have, because we are visited again by someone who has accused me of being more than one person here, and stealing the elements I work with in my panel collages, when in actual fact I am but one person and not operating sock puppet accounts here to argue with myself and others, using one account to act one way and a different account to act another, while managing multiple accounts under various names I had never even heard before they listed them off, saying I am on a number of other Christian forum sites where I most certainly do not post.

Where do these people come from? The last one said she was dared to come here to see how long she lasted, and with her poor attitude and slew of false accusations aimed at many members here, she did not last long, especially after slandering the site owner. Do I seem like Dino to you? As much as I can take being compared to Dino as a compliment, it is a completely ridiculous charge. LOL. Anywho, yeah, the pieces I collect and work with to design my collages are offered free for use in personal projects with the caveat of no financial gain, which she completely ignores, even though I stated what the site says (= Pixabay.com is a free stock photography and royalty-free stock media website. It is used for sharing photos, illustrations, vector graphics, film footage, stock music and sound effects, exclusively under the custom Pixabay Content License, which generally allows the free use of the material with some restrictions. The site's images are allowed to be used for free without attribution, and allowed to be modified and adapted into new works [which is exactly what I do]. Pixabay does not allow users to sell or distribute the content as is, use it commercially if it contains recognizable trademarks, or use photos in immoral, illegal, misleading, or deceptive ways)... over the years I have collected from many sites that offer millions and millions of images under basically the same terms and conditions... but she claims I don't sell the works due to nefarious reasons. So I went through some of my process on that thread earlier, since she started in earnest with all her nastiness toward me last night, while I have been intuitively wary of her since she joined three months ago. I appreciate that you have always been one to value the labors of love I pour into these creations to display the revealed written Word of God, and the fact that you have been willing to listen to what some of those endeavours entail even though you do not comprehend the logistics of the program I am using. And now I have made a few other minor edits/alterations, and so show it again in its new form, because it has relevance here also...

Psalm 14:1-3; Job 15:16
You get long posts from me... That is not my norm.

 

[Magenta]

Psalm 34:7 Hebrews 1:14 The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear Him, and he delivers them. Are not the angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

 

[GWH]

I almost cried after writing that. The last thing I want is to fight with you.
I need shorter to-the-point-answers at my advanced age...

Communicating clearly, completely and concisely is such a challenge!

 

[mailmandan]

A interesting take on James 2:24.
Do you know of any Bible translations that present the verse in such a way?

James 2:24 (CEB) - So you see that a person is shown to be righteous through faithful actions and not through faith alone.

James 2:24 (EHV) - You see that a person is shown to be righteous by works and not by faith alone.

James 2:24 (NLT) - So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

James 2:24 (TLV) - You see that a man is proved righteous by works and not by faith alone.

James 2:24 (AMP) - You see that a man (believer) is justified by works and not by faith alone [that is, by acts of obedience a born-again believer reveals his faith].

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) - Perfect harmony.

 

[HeIsHere]

A interesting take on James 2:24.
Do you know of any Bible translations that present the verse in such a way?

Faith is faith.

James is not addressing a fake or a non existent faith.
Dead faith is a faith is a faith that is not energized.
James is writing to an audience of believers.

 

[HeIsHere]

So far so good but perhaps we should define what “trust in Him” means.

Are we looking for consensus or are we debating?

It means believing that the offer is real.

 

[HeIsHere]

It is amazing how many believers today think and believe that mankind cannot choose to believe His Gospel. God did something about our(mans) predicament.

Ecc 3:11~~11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, without the possibility that mankind will find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

I could not imagine witnessing for Christ and thinking," But it's really pointless, the Gospel is meaningless until He regenerates His elect. And you're more than likely not one of the few He died for."

It really comes down to bad hermeneutics and a lot of false teachers sent out to infiltrate the churches with these pseudo-Calvinistic ideas. This concern has been noted by many preachers who follow a non-Calvinistic theology, however it was too late by the time churches realized what was happening.
It was actually planned and now we see the results right here on this discussion board.

Faith is required and responsibility of the person, there is not one scripture which supports the notion that God saves the already saved people.

If one has not exercised faith and placed their trust in Jesus and accepted the gift of salvation, one should think hard about whether they know the Gospel.

 

[GWH]

Are we looking for consensus or are we debating?

It means believing that the offer is real.

We are looking for consensus. I believe "trusting in God that the offer is real" implies the following elements in that trust/faith:

1. There really is one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to make the offer of salvation to morally accountable human beings—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever in heaven.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s offer of salvation (JN 3:18).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing/offering salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) [although Paul speaks of a provisional or proto-gospel via general revelation combined with conscience.
4. Thus, every person who hears of God's offer/the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept His offer/trust in Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

 

[HeIsHere]

We are looking for consensus. I believe "trusting in God that the offer is real" implies the following elements in that trust/faith:

1. There really is one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to make the offer of salvation to morally accountable human beings—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever in heaven.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s offer of salvation (JN 3:18).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing/offering salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) [although Paul speaks of a provisional or proto-gospel via general revelation combined with conscience.
4. Thus, every person who hears of God's offer/the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept His offer/trust in Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

Well the search for consensus may have failed, but I go a little longer.
What do you mean by repent?

 

[Magenta]

Communicating clearly, completely and concisely is such a challenge!

It comes across as blunt and too straightforward and direct for a lot of people who don't like the unvarnished versions. For instance, someone recently said, Don't imply I'm not being honest. My response? You're not honest. You repeatedly falsely accuse. I did add a little more after that but anyways, there are plenty of people who do not appreciate such frankness. I am not saying ph is one of them but neither did I want to offend in any point and that presented a problem to me.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No, no, no, I need caffeine! LOL Dear brother, I had felt challenged for the last couple of days in how to answer your posts to me, without it coming across cross, and it was very frustrating feeling like I could not address things you'd said without it appearing pugilistic or petty to point out one thing after another. There appears to be a great divide. On one side we have people saying God is unfair and an unjust tyrant if He does the very thing the Bible shows Him doing over and over and over again throughout history. We cannot come without being drawn, those given to Jesus will come, how can one even know God is drawing them if they are spiritually dead to Him and unable to receive the things of God? This is not being forced; some seem to hate that God's grace is irresistible, why??? Why when one finally understands the truth and is enabled to choose rightly is it called being forced, or a violation of one's free will? Yet what other choice does one have in that moment? We are all at that point like Peter, asking where else would we go, Lord? Wisdom embraces truth. One of my church elders used to say, when I would ask certain very pointed questions, it is both, and. Haha. I kind of hated that answer then but I find it to be so, now. There are none righteous, the world is blinded, God DID allow this, yes men chose, and their choices have led them into being slaves to sin and captive to the will of the devil, lovers of darkness, suppressing the truth, because all have turned away. The work God does in us, the work He did in me, opening my eyes, unstopping my ears, circumcising my heart, I am so grateful for, and am flummoxed that others despise the facts that bring people to the point of surrender so they may glory in the goodness and greatness of God despite who we are as lowly men. Man is not that bad they say. Psssshh. What world are they living in? Thank God for what beauty there is when there is so much pain and suffering everywhere we turn. Thank you for the patience and grace you show me...

I was showing this panel in another thread, and explaining a bit of the work I did with the figure etc to get the result I have, because we are visited again by someone who has accused me of being more than one person here, and stealing the elements I work with in my panel collages, when in actual fact I am but one person and not operating sock puppet accounts here to argue with myself and others, using one account to act one way and a different account to act another, while managing multiple accounts under various names I had never even heard before they listed them off, saying I am on a number of other Christian forum sites where I most certainly do not post.

Where do these people come from? The last one said she was dared to come here to see how long she lasted, and with her poor attitude and slew of false accusations aimed at many members here, she did not last long, especially after slandering the site owner. Do I seem like Dino to you? As much as I can take being compared to Dino as a compliment, it is a completely ridiculous charge. LOL. Anywho, yeah, the pieces I collect and work with to design my collages are offered free for use in personal projects with the caveat of no financial gain, which she completely ignores, even though I stated what the site says (= Pixabay.com is a free stock photography and royalty-free stock media website. It is used for sharing photos, illustrations, vector graphics, film footage, stock music and sound effects, exclusively under the custom Pixabay Content License, which generally allows the free use of the material with some restrictions. The site's images are allowed to be used for free without attribution, and allowed to be modified and adapted into new works [which is exactly what I do]. Pixabay does not allow users to sell or distribute the content as is, use it commercially if it contains recognizable trademarks, or use photos in immoral, illegal, misleading, or deceptive ways)... over the years I have collected from many sites that offer millions and millions of images under basically the same terms and conditions... but she claims I don't sell the works due to nefarious reasons. So I went through some of my process on that thread earlier, since she started in earnest with all her nastiness toward me last night, while I have been intuitively wary of her since she joined three months ago. I appreciate that you have always been one to value the labors of love I pour into these creations to display the revealed written Word of God, and the fact that you have been willing to listen to what some of those endeavours entail even though you do not comprehend the logistics of the program I am using. And now I have made a few other minor edits/alterations, and so show it again in its new form, because it has relevance here also...

Psalm 14:1-3; Job 15:16
You get long posts from me... That is not my norm.

@n one side we have people saying God is unfair and an unjust tyrant if He does the very thing the Bible shows Him doing over and over and over again throughout history. “

sister what I’m saying is not this at all in any way. This is what I meant by you aren’t hearing me . Probably because I’m not that great at communication .

i don’t think Gods an evil tyrant lol I don’t be honk anyone in this t he was has actually made that case ( that I’ve seen anyways )

My point is anyone can be saved if they believe the gospel

It’s the message of Jesus death for our sins and resurrection promising life sister that “ draws “ all men

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

hes already done the thing that draws people to him all that’s left is the message and whether we believe it ? Or reject it ?

What I’m getting at is this is how God draws people to Jesus

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m saying There’s no other factor that is going to make one man to believe the gospel and another man not to believe the gospel

He already has done everything we need now it’s time for us to hear the truth and believe otherwise we will after we don’t believe be blinded

It’s not that God hasn’t enabled people to be saved that’s my point he did the same thing for every person in earth and whoever believes it is going to be saved

Its not God picking and choosing between people it’s people choosing either God or the world when they hear the gospel he’s already sent into the world promising salvation for anyone and everyone that believes

 

[Magenta]

It really comes down to bad hermeneutics and a lot of false teachers sent out to infiltrate the churches with these pseudo-Calvinistic ideas. This concern has been noted by many preachers who follow a non-Calvinistic theology, however it was too late by the time churches realized what was happening.
It was actually planned and now we see the results right here on this discussion board.

Faith is required and responsibility of the person, there is not one scripture which supports the notion that God saves the already saved people.

If one has not exercised faith and placed their trust in Jesus and accepted the gift of salvation, one should think hard about whether they know the Gospel.

Bible truth includes the fact that believers were raised to life and placed in Christ while they were dead in their sins. Not dead men who are unable to receive the things of God -suppressing the truth while loving their sin/unrighteousness and captive to the will of the devil and incapable of obeying -deciding of their own free will that God is the way to go. God does a work in the person and draws them with loving kindness, those given to Jesus WILL come, these things are explicitly stated in Scripture, yet people kick and scream against these points and say such things as you do, and worse, that God is an unjust tyrant kidnapping people, making a mockery and hoax of repentance and salvation, insisting we believe God rapes people and all sorts of similar nonsense aimed to offend, as if people do not make choices consistent with their nature, being naturally hostile to God before God circumcises their hearts, replaces our heart, out of which the right and ultimately most desirable choice can be made.

Man's depravity vs God's Grace

 

[Magenta]

@n one side we have people saying God is unfair and an unjust tyrant if He does the very thing the Bible shows Him doing over and over and over again throughout history. “

sister what I’m saying is not this at all in any way. This is what I meant by you aren’t hearing me . Probably because I’m not that great at communication .

i don’t think Gods an evil tyrant lol I don’t be honk anyone in this t he was has actually made that case ( that I’ve seen anyways )

My point is anyone can be saved if they believe the gospel

It’s the message of Jesus death for our sins and resurrection promising life sister that “ draws “ all men

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

hes already done the thing that draws people to him all that’s left is the message and whether we believe it ? Or reject it ?

What I’m getting at is this is how God draws people to Jesus

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m saying There’s no other factor that is going to make one man to believe the gospel and another man not to believe the gospel

He already has done everything we need now it’s time for us to hear the truth and believe otherwise we will after we don’t believe be blinded

It’s not that God hasn’t enabled people to be saved that’s my point he did the same thing for every person in earth and whoever believes it is going to be saved

Its not God picking and choosing between people it’s people choosing either God or the world when they hear the gospel he’s already sent into the world promising salvation for anyone and everyone that believes

Aye, I am not saying you say those things, but you did more than once introduce the idea of people being forced and I do not know where that comes from. God enables and draws and gives to Jesus those who will come, to say otherwise denies Scripture, and people will say their free will is thusly violated... well to that I say, so what? The will is not free when one is taken captive to the will of the devil, is it? Or do those people think the will of the devil is that we believe? That is the purview of God's will. Man makes choices consistent with the condition of his heart which God needs to circumcise. Jesus plainly states He came to free the slaves. Men are slave to sin. He opens the eyes of the blind, unstops their ears. Anyways I am already late for work here... hopefully there will not be a lot to do and we can perhaps discuss throughout the day.

Luke 4:18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.

 

[Magenta]

I have just arranged to work my three days this week starting tomorrow. Yay. I will go out for coffee.

Oh! I have a praise report. The power went off here a while ago for a few hours, and in that interval my building management staff was again reminded of my physical infirmities with COPD and hip issues, both of which make walking any great distance difficult... I say great but that would be anything more than two blocks at a time.. so taking the stairs up to my floor was not appealing, yet not knowing how long I might sit in the lobby waiting for the power to return the elevators to functioning, I opted to take the stairs so I could at least be home and able to lay in bed if I wanted. So when someone recently was willing to give up their parking spot for something further from the building, for reasons of the noise and noxious emissions they create when starting their vehicle, building management more or less immediately settled on me as the beneficiary of such benevolence. So now my car is right outside an exit door! Thank you, God.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Aye, I am not saying you say those things, but you did more than once introduce the idea of people being forced and I do not know where that comes from. God enables and draws and gives to Jesus those who will come, to say otherwise denies Scripture, and people will say their free will is thusly violated... well to that I say, so what? The will is not free when one is taken captive to the will of the devil, is it? Or do those people think the will of the devil is that we believe? That is the purview of God's will. Man makes choices consistent with the condition of his heart which God needs to circumcise. Jesus plainly states He came to free the slaves. Men are slave to sin. He opens the eyes of the blind, unstops their ears. Anyways I am already late for work here... hopefully there will not be a lot to do and we can perhaps discuss throughout the day.

Luke 4:18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.

“Aye, I am not saying you say those things, but you did more than once introduce the idea of people being forced and I do not know where that comes from.”

you may need to go back to the conversation when you first responded to me and what I was talking about before that with someone else, to understand we were discussing.

it seems like we aren’t understanding each other sister. I was going to respond to some other stuff in your comment the longer one I appreciated that length

 

[Magenta]

“Aye, I am not saying you say those things, but you did more than once introduce the idea of people being forced and I do not know where that comes from.”

you may need to go back to the conversation when you first responded to me and what I was talking about before that with someone else, to understand we were discussing.

it seems like we aren’t understanding each other sister. I was going to respond to some other stuff in your comment the longer one I appreciated that length

There may be a problem with that idea because I find it difficult to follow long involved conversations if each
post is lengthy in itself, partly a lack of interest which is my fault, and that is not to say I never read such things,
because I do, but the minutia people get into in their back and forths, my God, it is mind numbing at times LOL
and also sometimes comes across as nit picking and being petty which I myself want to avoid if I can. That is
another reason I largely avoid commenting on news and political issues, it all he said, she said.

 

[Magenta]

That is another reason I largely avoid commenting on news and political issues, it all he said, she said. Nobody
was there for most of what gets discussed, it is all like gossip in my mind, nothing about Christ and Him crucified.

I missed the five minute edit window for adding that last part...

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Aye, I am not saying you say those things, but you did more than once introduce the idea of people being forced and I do not know where that comes from. God enables and draws and gives to Jesus those who will come, to say otherwise denies Scripture, and people will say their free will is thusly violated... well to that I say, so what? The will is not free when one is taken captive to the will of the devil, is it? Or do those people think the will of the devil is that we believe? That is the purview of God's will. Man makes choices consistent with the condition of his heart which God needs to circumcise. Jesus plainly states He came to free the slaves. Men are slave to sin. He opens the eyes of the blind, unstops their ears. Anyways I am already late for work here... hopefully there will not be a lot to do and we can perhaps discuss throughout the day.

Luke 4:18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.

“God enables and draws and gives to Jesus those who will come, to say otherwise denies Scripture, and people will say their free will is thusly violated”

no again not at all what I’m saying. I’m saying we have free Will given to us by God and he speaks to us and we either believe him and are “ drawn “ to him , or we reject it and don’t get “ drawn “ to him

hes already done what he’s going to do to “ draw “ all creation to him he suffered and died for our sins they put him to open shame stripped and beat and whipped him , mocked him then they crucified him with transgressors. Then they pierced his side and the blood and water flowed.

and they laid him in a grave dead like a man like a son of man. And then afterwards on the third day he rose again !

then sister our lord told those he had the chosen of isreal this

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I really don’t understand where the issue would be.

I don’t believe that some people God enables and tbey will be saved

but other people God doesn’t enable so they shall be damned.

I believe that whoever hears the gospel and believes and then responds in faith will be saved

when you bring up Israel’s blindness and deafness . My point in all those scriptures was to show you that was Gods response after generations of isreal rejecting him and the choice he kept giving them to repent and turn from tbier sins ( some did and we’re promised salvation )

It’s not because God isn’t helping us or God hasn’t yet done what we needed to be saved . It’s simply that like eve , we listen to far too many opinions based on a single scripture taken out of a comprehensive true story

Read the first half of the Bible for awhile and notice all the men God speaks with and sends angels to and look at lot sister the angels eventually basically drag him out because he’s tarrying but then his wife looks back but he doesn’t look back one of them is saved the other isn’t

it isn’t because God made her look back and made him not look back it’s because she loves her possessions and life in tbe city he was destroying for its degradations and wickedness

That’s what he does he judges mankind on the good and evil they do he says it throughout the old and New Testament

Do we them say “ anyone who doesn’t repent is because God hasn’t made them able ? Anyone who is judges for tbier wicked deeds is because God did’t save them like he did the other people ?

I really don’t understand the undeniable grace that saves some but not others . To me God has created mankind able to choose between his word and the other word which is always going to determine the man’s outcome what he says is our source of life

“But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭4:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

Or

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods grace is available to everyone right now it’s in believing the gospel and our lords word. We have to believe it and then pursue it though he’s already done his part grace has already come the gospel is now preached full of grace and truth

our place is to hear it and either believe or reject it and make our own determinations of salvation like men has tried to do for ages . I think believing the gospel is the path and anyone can believe but not if they never hear it