the Sabbath

[MeowFlower]

I think by twisted you must mean unraveled. No thanks necessary. You're always welcome.

No, I meant exactly what I said. You twist the Scriptures.

You mock that because you don't think there are consequences.

There was a guy who used to harass Christians at christianforums.com. This was years ago. He finally went to far and was banned. Or,maybe he asked that his account be closed so he could continue under a different identity.

Whatever the case I haven't thought of him in years. Until now. DControversial.

You remind me of him.

 

[Cameron143]

No, I meant exactly what I said. You twist the Scriptures.

You mock that because you don't think there are consequences.

There was a guy who used to harass Christians at christianforums.com. This was years ago. He finally went to far and was banned. Or,maybe he asked that his account be closed so he could continue under a different identity.

Whatever the case I haven't thought of him in years. Until now. DControversial.

You remind me of him.

When Jesus told His Jewish audience to come to Him for rest, what do you imagine their first thought was?

 

[Inquisitor]

I think if someone truly believes that they would never oppose observing the Sabbath as he did. He and the Apostles,including Paul.

Gentiles are not under the law given in Exodus because the law has passed.

Gentiles are not under the letter of the law that was codified in Exodus.

Gentiles are not under the old covenant given in Exodus.

Gentiles were not freed from slavery in Egypt.

Gentiles cannot be initiated into the law via a circumcision.

Gentiles must abstain from sexual immorality, blood, strangled, and food sacrificed
to idols, as Acts 15 states.

The sabbath was never given to the Gentiles, in fact, the letter of the law was never
given to the Gentiles.

You are claiming things that are not recorded in the scripture.

 

[Cameron143]

Ok, so ignore what God said. He didn’t really mean the seventh day. But listen to me, even though I have never produced one scripture to back my opinion.

This sounds similar to what Adam and Eve went through in the garden. Don’t eat from one tree, otherwise you will surely die. The serpent came along and said the opposite, you won’t surely die, you can eat from the tree.

Thank you, but for me I am going to stick with what God said. No one is in the Spirit by breaking the letter. John 14:15-18 Mat 5:19-30 Rom 8:7-8 1 John 3:24 Acts 5:32 It’s another deception. The spirit of the law is greater than the letter, not lessor as Jesus demonstrated warning not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments Mat 5:19-30 because that path leads one to a ditch Mat 15:3-14

I do worry for you, and all of my neighbors. We are not sanctified by our own words, we are only sanctified by the Truth in God’s Word John 17:17 and only God can sanctify and bless us. Eze 20:12 God was specific for a reason, if you think He doesn’t mean what He said, guess we will all find out soon enough. But its best imho to let God be God and we be His humble servant living by His every Word and not ours.

I wish you well.

You don't accept truth. I have shared scripture with you, but you don't receive it. You know that the letter of the law kills, but the Spirit of the law gives life. Yet you continue to insist on the letter of the law.
God's intention in giving the Sabbath wasn't to add an additional day to the week. It was to give rest. The physical rest was a picture of the greater spiritual rest.
What do you imagine a 1st century Jew would have thought concerning the rest offered by Jesus in Matthew 11:28-30?

 

[SabbathBlessing]

You don't accept truth. I have shared scripture with you, but you don't receive it. You know that the letter of the law kills, but the Spirit of the law gives life. Yet you continue to insist on the letter of the law.
God's intention in giving the Sabbath wasn't to add an additional day to the week. It was to give rest. The physical rest was a picture of the greater spiritual rest.
What do you imagine a 1st century Jew would have thought concerning the rest offered by Jesus in Matthew 11:28-30?

The letter kills because the sting of the law is death, and still applies for those who are not in Christ Rom 6:23 its not saying we now can worship other gods, to steal, covet, break God’s holy Sabbath day, vain His holy name or break the least of these commandments or edit God’s law which makes one their own god. This is a bad interpretation. If we are in Christ, we would be keeping His commandments and following in His footsteps and you can see thise teaching in John 15:10 1 John 2:6

If we are walking in the Spirit, we are obeying God‘s law, not breaking it. I believe this is a Truth you are not accepting.

1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

I still think you are not distinguishing the difference of the rest God gives, which we can receive anytime if in Christ and the Sabbath rest which is the seventh day thus saith the Lord thy God Exo 20:10.

The rest God gives is when we are in complete harmony with Him and His commandments. Isa 48:13 No one receives rest when we are in rebellion to Him. You can also see this in Rev 14:11 and Rev 14:12

Those who enter His rest also cease from their works as God did from His Heb 4:10 on the seventh day. Heb 4:4 so no we can’t edit His commandments and bypass them and think we are in harmony with His will. Not anything Jesus taught Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 19:17-19 Mat 7:21-23 etc

Thats because God said not a jot or tittle can pass from God’s law, meaning no edits and why the Sabbath rest is still according to the commandment Luke 23:56 and God said the Sabbath rest is on the seventh day Exo 20:10

Hopefully one day you will consider these biblical Truths.

 

[Inquisitor]

We all sin, but if we have a right relationship with God, we will loose the cares of this world and focus on Jesus Christ. While I can’t obey Him on my own, I can through Christ, it’s a promise. John 14:15-18 Rev 14:12 but if we won’t even allow God to be God and follow His law, His version, not mans, there is no place for the Holy Spirit to come into our hearts and enable us to obey Him.

You continue with the works of the law as a precondition for salvation.

You must obey the sabbath to have "a right relationship with God".

Which means one cannot receive the Holy Spirit without legal obedience first.

The death and resurrection cannot save anyone unless they obey the sabbath.

The death and resurrection of Jesus has no power over those who are sabbath disobedient.

"there is no place for the Holy Spirit to come into our hearts and enable us to obey Him"

So the sabbath disobedient cannot receive the Holy Spirit, therefore they cannot obey Jesus.

Because only by the power of the Holy Spirit can a person become obedient.

No obedience means no Holy Spirit and no Holy Spirit means no obedience.

The lost will always remain lost because they cannot first obey the law, to receive the Holy Spirit.

Does anyone notice the paradox?

 

[SabbathBlessing]

You continue with the works of the law as a precondition for salvation.

You must obey the sabbath to have "a right relationship with God".

Which means one cannot receive the Holy Spirit without legal obedience first.

The death and resurrection cannot save anyone unless they obey the sabbath.

The death and resurrection of Jesus has no power over those who are sabbath disobedient.

"there is no place for the Holy Spirit to come into our hearts and enable us to obey Him"

So the sabbath disobedient cannot receive the Holy Spirit, therefore they cannot obey Jesus.

Because only by the power of the Holy Spirit can a person become obedient.

No obedience means no Holy Spirit and no Holy Spirit means no obedience.

The lost will always remain lost because they cannot first obey the law, to receive the Holy Spirit.

Does anyone notice the paradox?

We don’t keep God’s law to be saved, its through love and faith and keeping God’s law is a consequence of being saved, not a means to it.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are those who [a]do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Does one really believe we have a right relationship with Christ by doing the opposite of what He asks?

 

[Inquisitor]

The letter kills because the sting of the law is death, and still applies for those who are not in Christ Rom 6:23 its not saying we now can worship other gods, to steal, covet, break God’s holy Sabbath day, vain His holy name or break the least of these commandments or edit God’s law which makes one their own god. This is a bad interpretation. If we are in Christ, we would be keeping His commandments and following in His footsteps and you can see thise teaching in John 15:10 1 John 2:6

If we are walking in the Spirit, we are obeying God‘s law, not breaking it. I believe this is a Truth you are not accepting.

1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

I still think you are not distinguishing the difference of the rest God gives, which we can receive anytime if in Christ and the Sabbath rest which is the seventh day thus saith the Lord thy God Exo 20:10.

The rest God gives is when we are in complete harmony with Him and His commandments. Isa 48:13 No one receives rest when we are in rebellion to Him. You can also see this in Rev 14:11 and Rev 14:12

Those who enter His rest also cease from their works as God did from His Heb 4:10 on the seventh day. Heb 4:4 so no we can’t edit His commandments and bypass them and think we are in harmony with His will. Not anything Jesus taught Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 19:17-19 Mat 7:21-23 etc

Thats because God said not a jot or tittle can pass from God’s law, meaning no edits and why the Sabbath rest is still according to the commandment Luke 23:56 and God said the Sabbath rest is on the seventh day Exo 20:10

Hopefully one day you will consider these biblical Truths.

We are not under the letter of the law.

Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound,
so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

All you do is quote the letter of the law.

Do we serve in the Spirit or do we serve in the letter of the law?

 

[SabbathBlessing]

We are not under the letter of the law.

Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound,
so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

All you do is quote the letter of the law.

Do we serve in the Spirit or do we serve in the letter of the law?

what this means is we are not under the condemnation of the law if we are in God’s Spirit

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who[a] do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


Is Paul teaching to be an enmity against God?

7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

And to contradict Jesus leaving people outside the gates of heaven?

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

No Paul was not teaching lawlessness and to sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

We are not saved in our sins Heb 10:26-30 we are saved from sin Mat 1:21 we need a complete change of direction, walking in Christ, dying of self, walking in the footsteps of Jesus Christ, who lived perfectly for our example to follow 1 John 2:6

 

[Inquisitor]

We don’t keep God’s law to be saved, its through love and faith and keeping God’s law is a consequence of being saved, not a means to it.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are those who [a]do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

That's not what you said SabbathBlessing.

Here is what you said and the exact words.

"there is no place for the Holy Spirit to come into our hearts and enable us to obey Him"

Why can't someone receive the Holy Spirit because they are not sabbath obedient!

Which is a paradox.

No sabbath equals no Holy Spirit and no Holy Spirit means no obedience.

That is what you stated in post #3700

 

[SabbathBlessing]

That's not what you said SabbathBlessing.

Here is what you said and the exact words.

"there is no place for the Holy Spirit to come into our hearts and enable us to obey Him"

Why can't someone receive the Holy Spirit because they are not sabbath obedient!

Which is a paradox.

No sabbath equals no Holy Spirit and no Holy Spirit means no obedience.

That is what you stated in post #3700

You think the Holy Spirit is going to force Himself in our hearts and force everyone to obey Him or is He at the door and we need to let Him in?

We need to hear His voice and let Him in

Heb 3:7
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,

Rev 3:20 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

 

[Cameron143]

The letter kills because the sting of the law is death, and still applies for those who are not in Christ Rom 6:23 its not saying we now can worship other gods, to steal, covet, break God’s holy Sabbath day, vain His holy name or break the least of these commandments or edit God’s law which makes one their own god. This is a bad interpretation. If we are in Christ, we would be keeping His commandments and following in His footsteps and you can see thise teaching in John 15:10 1 John 2:6

If we are walking in the Spirit, we are obeying God‘s law, not breaking it. I believe this is a Truth you are not accepting.

1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

I still think you are not distinguishing the difference of the rest God gives, which we can receive anytime if in Christ and the Sabbath rest which is the seventh day thus saith the Lord thy God Exo 20:10.

The rest God gives is when we are in complete harmony with Him and His commandments. Isa 48:13 No one receives rest when we are in rebellion to Him. You can also see this in Rev 14:11 and Rev 14:12

Those who enter His rest also cease from their works as God did from His Heb 4:10 on the seventh day. Heb 4:4 so no we can’t edit His commandments and bypass them and think we are in harmony with His will. Not anything Jesus taught Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 19:17-19 Mat 7:21-23 etc

Thats because God said not a jot or tittle can pass from God’s law, meaning no edits and why the Sabbath rest is still according to the commandment Luke 23:56 and God said the Sabbath rest is on the seventh day Exo 20:10

Hopefully one day you will consider these biblical Truths.

Here's what I believe you don't understand:

Romans 1:20...For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made...

Was the Sabbath created by God? Of course it was. According to Romans 1, it is designed to teach something about God that isn't tangible. Is a day tangible? Yep. Is physical rest tangible? Yep. Is spiritual rest tangible? No. This is what the Sabbath points to.

Another truth:

2 Corinthians 1:20...For all the promises of God are in Him yea, and in Him Amen...

The promise of rest is not found in a day. It is found in Christ. You allude to this, but clearly do not understand it, believing there to be 2 rests.

Since you chose not to answer my question, I'll answer it for you. If you ask a science student about elements, they will immediately think atoms. If you ask that same student about amino acids, they will immediately think protein. If you ask a 1st century Jew about rest, they would immediately think Sabbath. They would have understood exactly what He was referring to and implying.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Here's what I believe you don't understand:

Romans 1:20...For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made...

Was the Sabbath created by God? Of course it was. According to Romans 1, it is designed to teach something about God that isn't tangible. Is a day tangible? Yep. Is physical rest tangible? Yep. Is spiritual rest tangible? No. This is what the Sabbath points to.

Another truth:

2 Corinthians 1:20...For all the promises of God are in Him yea, and in Him Amen...

The promise of rest is not found in a day. It is found in Christ. You allude to this, but clearly do not understand it, believing there to be 2 rests.

Since you chose not to answer my question, I'll answer it for you. If you ask a science student about elements, they will immediately think atoms. If you ask that same student about amino acids, they will immediately think protein. If you ask a 1st century Jew about rest, they would immediately think Sabbath. They would have understood exactly what He was referring to and implying.

Rom 1:20 does not mention the Sabbath, does this mean we can add whatever we don’t want to obey in God’s commandments and apply it to this verse? I think Jesus covered it when He said not a jot or tittle can pass from God’s law, so this is not about editing one of God’s commandments.

2 Cor 1:20 So does God promises not includes what God promised such as

Is 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,

Exo 20:10 the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God


So we get to pick and choose the promises God says?

The question is irrelevant because we don’t need to ask anyone else what the Sabbath means when God wrote and God spoke it so clearly, there is no greater Authority than God. I say we place our faith in Him and no need to modify His Words, He tells us not to because we are no longer following Him, but someone else. Who we obey is who we serve Rom 6:16. I say we obey God the way He said- He is not only God, He is King of kings and Lord of lords- He deserves our respect and obedience. Be doers of His Word, not just hearers James 1:22. Blessed those who does this, who keeps from defiling the Sabbath Isa 56:2, Blessed are those who do His commandments, His version Rev 22:14. Trust God!

 

[Cameron143]

Rom 1:20 does not mention the Sabbath, does this mean we can add whatever we don’t want to obey in God’s commandments and apply it to thIs verse? I think Jesus covered it when He said not a jot or tittle can pass from God’s law, so this is not about editing one of God’s commandments.

2 Cor 1:20 So does God promises not includes what God promised such as

Is 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,

Exo 20:10 the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God


So we get to pick and choose the promises God says?

The question is irrelevant because we don’t need to ask anyone else what the Sabbath means when God wrote and God spoke it so clearly, there is no greater Authority than God.

The Sabbath wasn't part of creation? Is this your claim?

 

[SabbathBlessing]

The Sabbath wasn't part of creation? Is this your claim?

Of course not, the Sabbath was part of Creation, part of God’s perfect plan before the fall of man. The Sabbath was the seventh day at Creation Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:11 Heb 4:4 , just like the Sabbath is the seventh day today. Using Rom 1:20 against the Sabbath being on the seventh day, is not what Rom 1:20 is about.

 

[Cameron143]

Rom 1:20 does not mention the Sabbath, does this mean we can add whatever we don’t want to obey in God’s commandments and apply it to this verse? I think Jesus covered it when He said not a jot or tittle can pass from God’s law, so this is not about editing one of God’s commandments.

2 Cor 1:20 So does God promises not includes what God promised such as

Is 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,

Exo 20:10 the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God


So we get to pick and choose the promises God says?

The question is irrelevant because we don’t need to ask anyone else what the Sabbath means when God wrote and God spoke it so clearly, there is no greater Authority than God. I say we place our faith in Him and no need to modify His Words, He tells us not to because we are no longer following Him, but someone else. Who we obey is who we serve Rom 6:16. I say we obey God the way He said- He is not only God, He is King of kings and Lord of lords- He deserves our respect and obedience. Be doers of His Word, not just hearers James 1:22. Blessed those who does this, who keeps from defiling the Sabbath Isa 56:2, Blessed are those who do His commandments, His version Rev 22:14. Trust God!

What you consider editing is merely understanding. Are you familiar with the Constitution? There are also Federalist Papers. In the Federalist Papers one finds the arguments that were considered by the founding fathers. In this way, the Constitution can be understood by referring to them.
The Bible has no such reference, but it is important to understand God's intention. Thankfully, the Bible is its own reference, comparing scripture with scripture.
The OT is filled with shadows and types. Clear understanding is impossible apart from NT revelation. Yet you insist you understand the Sabbath and God's intention without NT revelation.

 

[Cameron143]

Of course not, the Sabbath was part of Creation, part of God’s perfect plan before the fall of man. The Sabbath was the seventh day at Creation Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:11 Heb 4:4 , just like the Sabbath is the seventh day today. Using Rom 1:20 against the Sabbath being on the seventh day, is not what Rom 1:20 is about.

The Sabbath was part of God's plan after the fall as well.

 

[TMS]

When Jesus told His Jewish audience to come to Him for rest, what do you imagine their first thought was?

When Jesus told Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:... "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

What was his first thought? Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

When Jesus meet the woman of samaria and told her ..."If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. "

What was her response ? Joh 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

Both of these people missed the point at first. They looked at the literal not the spiritual

Jesus helped them to understand. And Jesus used many pysical things to illustrate spiritual lessons.
Rest in Jesus is a wonderful thing. Fredom from the burden of Sin. But that does not mean the sabbath day is made void.

Sabbath rest is a gift and commandment that God gave to us. God knows what is best, and i will follow the Lord not man.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest (sabbatismos, “sabbatism”) to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. = God rested on the sabbath at creation

 

[Cameron143]

Of course not, the Sabbath was part of Creation, part of God’s perfect plan before the fall of man. The Sabbath was the seventh day at Creation Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:11 Heb 4:4 , just like the Sabbath is the seventh day today. Using Rom 1:20 against the Sabbath being on the seventh day, is not what Rom 1:20 is about.

You still don't get it. I'm not arguing against someone keeping a 7th day Sabbath. But neither will I neglect God's intention in establishing the Sabbath, not will I neglect the full counsel of God by ignoring NT teaching concerning the Sabbath.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

The Sabbath was part of God's plan after the fall as well.

Amen! Of course it was that why God personally wrote it with His own finger and spoke it with His own voice to the entire nation of Israel which represents God’s people

The Sabbath never changed, still on the seventh day, just like it was at Creation.

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

And its still on the seventh day in the NC as the Sabbath rest is according to the commandments

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Placed in our heart in the NC because we will also need God’s blessing and sanctification.