There will be no Rapture!!!
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By whom or what are your works to be done? The Spirit or the flesh? Obviously the works of the Spirit are the works that please God and these cannot be performed if you are not in fellowship (on speaking terms, as we would say) with the Lord.
There is also the issue of how can being spewed from Christ's mouth be a reference to losing salvation when he promised to lose none of His?
It basically is telling us a lukewarm Christian is distasteful to the Lord therefore we need to "fix" the relationship. This we do through confession whereby we are cleansed of all unrighteousness (the sin we know we have committed and the sins we are ignorant of) in order to be restored to a right relationship.
And just in case I have not made myself clear, our works and our fellowship status with the Lord cannot be divorced. Our works will either flow from the Spirit (spiritual) or our flesh (carnal).
There is also the issue of how can being spewed from Christ's mouth be a reference to losing salvation when he promised to lose none of His?
It basically is telling us a lukewarm Christian is distasteful to the Lord therefore we need to "fix" the relationship. This we do through confession whereby we are cleansed of all unrighteousness (the sin we know we have committed and the sins we are ignorant of) in order to be restored to a right relationship.
And just in case I have not made myself clear, our works and our fellowship status with the Lord cannot be divorced. Our works will either flow from the Spirit (spiritual) or our flesh (carnal).
I have no real idea of what you mean by "The resurrection is the epitome of rapture".
The Rapture, as in 1Thess.4:17 rapture, is the Resurrection of the Church. They are the first rank of believers to be raised from the dead after Christ. Believers come in different classes and this is not like upper or lower class but like armies are divided into different companies for different purposes.
1 Corinthians 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
The Rapture, as in 1Thess.4:17 rapture, is the Resurrection of the Church. They are the first rank of believers to be raised from the dead after Christ. Believers come in different classes and this is not like upper or lower class but like armies are divided into different companies for different purposes.
1 Corinthians 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
I said only believers enter the Millennium. The Millennium lasts for a thousand years. There will be people born during this time. There is no guarantee all those born will turn out to be believers. Indeed, at least one very good reason to have a Millennium is to show, that even in perfect environment, evil can still rise which, shows us where evil truly begins and it is not on the outside.
So much for equity theory.
So much for equity theory.
It appears you are confusing what others have said with my own statements because I never said anything about salvation being lost for we who are under the Gospel of Grace. Revelation was written to the Jews because it is about the Lord's dealings with unbelieving Israel. So, the works are indeed from their efforts because the context is clearly talking about their works tried in the fire, whether hay, wood and stuble, or precious gold. So, it is context, context, context.
If you read what I have actually said, you will see that I made numerous references to our having been sealed by Holy Spirit, and so our never losing our salvation. I totally agree with you. We are saved by grace, which is not of works, but some here think otherwise because of their inability, or unwillingness, to read what the Bible actually says. Under the Kingdom Gospel preached by Christ and the apostles, they could indeed end up never saved if they did not endure unto the end of their lives. They were not sealed by Holy Spirit as we are under the Gospel of Grace.
Some here need to glean an understanding of the differences, because the lack of understanding is why some are so horribly confused in their theology and eschatology. Those who want to be here through some or all the tribulation will find that they were not true believers right now, and so must join up with Israel for salvation, being under the Law given that the Kingdom Gospel program will once again resume.
MM
If you read what I have actually said, you will see that I made numerous references to our having been sealed by Holy Spirit, and so our never losing our salvation. I totally agree with you. We are saved by grace, which is not of works, but some here think otherwise because of their inability, or unwillingness, to read what the Bible actually says. Under the Kingdom Gospel preached by Christ and the apostles, they could indeed end up never saved if they did not endure unto the end of their lives. They were not sealed by Holy Spirit as we are under the Gospel of Grace.
Some here need to glean an understanding of the differences, because the lack of understanding is why some are so horribly confused in their theology and eschatology. Those who want to be here through some or all the tribulation will find that they were not true believers right now, and so must join up with Israel for salvation, being under the Law given that the Kingdom Gospel program will once again resume.
MM
I said only believers enter the Millennium. The Millennium lasts for a thousand years. There will be people born during this time. There is no guarantee all those born will turn out to be believers. Indeed, at least one very good reason to have a Millennium is to show, that even in perfect environment, evil can still rise which, shows us where evil truly begins and it is not on the outside.
So much for equity theory.
So much for equity theory.
Be patient with those out there who clearly are followers of the monolithic gospel error. Their intermixing of the dispensations has them so horribly confused about almost everything in the Bible. They ridicule what they do not understand.
MM
I come here even knowing though there are more lectures offered than any real conversations, and there are more brick walls than there are windows into a soul. And I am aware that few do have any real idea of what I mean, but I have seen a sufficient number of eyes (even online having never actually seen their face) to secure my interest in remaining. These have approached nearest to the flames of the sword while most keep their distance for the heat.
No I wasn't confusing you with others, I said that for the sake of others as you asked me to explain why I said what I said re broken fellowship. I do realise you know we cannot lose our salvation however I do disagree with you on some of the things you said in your post but I have a busy weekend and am not sure if I can give a full answer here and now. Please be patient and I will get back to you as I would like to discuss this issue further.
Something that I've noticed throughout all of scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, is that there is one, monolithic element throughout all the dispensations, and that being faith. That has validated in my mind the truth in the statement where it is written that without faith, it's impossible to please God.
The word of God is truth.
Amen
MM
The word of God is truth.
Amen
MM
Do not confuse the rapture with the resurrection.
The resurrected are not raptured.
The raptured are not resurrected.
Or, in other words:
Only the dead are resurrected.
Only the living are raptured.
The Rapture and the Ressurection are not the same event. The Ressurection happens only to the dead saints, and the Rapture only happens to the living saints.
The living aren't resurrected because they didn't die. The dead aren't raptured because they return with Christ as he returns.
Besides this, Paul makes it clear the resurrection happens before the rapture so the living cannot "precede/prevent" the dead proving that the two events are not one single event but they do happen nearly at the same time.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The gathering or rapture is only for those who are alive and remain at the second coming.
The raptured saints are taken to clouds of the Earth to meet Christ who is waiting there for them.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Christ will bring the dead in Christ with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Those who are alive and survived something very terrible cannot "prevent" the dead in Christ which simply means the living will not meet with Christ before the dead in Christ meet him. This also proves the dead in Christ are not on Earth and raptured with the living. The dead come from heaven with Christ as verse 14 says.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This is how the living cannot meet with Christ before the dead do. Christ will leave heaven and the dead in Christ will resurrect. They will come with Christ as verse 14 says.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1. Christ leaves heaven.
2. The dead in Christ resurrect.
3. The dead in Christ come with Christ, following him.
4. The living will be changed and then are caught up/raptured (Harpazo in Greek) to the clouds of the Earth.
5. The living meet Christ and the formerly dead in Christ at those clouds.
6. The second coming will continue with Christ descending to the Earth, likely to Armageddon first, then to Mt Zion.
7. It's possible he goes to Mt Zion first, and Armageddon second. The text is not clear on that.
The dead will not be raptured and the living will not be resurrected. The dead go DOWN from heaven and the living go UP from the Earth.
The resurrected are not raptured.
The raptured are not resurrected.
Or, in other words:
Only the dead are resurrected.
Only the living are raptured.
The Rapture and the Ressurection are not the same event. The Ressurection happens only to the dead saints, and the Rapture only happens to the living saints.
The living aren't resurrected because they didn't die. The dead aren't raptured because they return with Christ as he returns.
Besides this, Paul makes it clear the resurrection happens before the rapture so the living cannot "precede/prevent" the dead proving that the two events are not one single event but they do happen nearly at the same time.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The gathering or rapture is only for those who are alive and remain at the second coming.
The raptured saints are taken to clouds of the Earth to meet Christ who is waiting there for them.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Christ will bring the dead in Christ with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Those who are alive and survived something very terrible cannot "prevent" the dead in Christ which simply means the living will not meet with Christ before the dead in Christ meet him. This also proves the dead in Christ are not on Earth and raptured with the living. The dead come from heaven with Christ as verse 14 says.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This is how the living cannot meet with Christ before the dead do. Christ will leave heaven and the dead in Christ will resurrect. They will come with Christ as verse 14 says.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1. Christ leaves heaven.
2. The dead in Christ resurrect.
3. The dead in Christ come with Christ, following him.
4. The living will be changed and then are caught up/raptured (Harpazo in Greek) to the clouds of the Earth.
5. The living meet Christ and the formerly dead in Christ at those clouds.
6. The second coming will continue with Christ descending to the Earth, likely to Armageddon first, then to Mt Zion.
7. It's possible he goes to Mt Zion first, and Armageddon second. The text is not clear on that.
The dead will not be raptured and the living will not be resurrected. The dead go DOWN from heaven and the living go UP from the Earth.
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Looking back at the title of this thread, I'm left wondering what the originator actually thinks will be the means by which he or she will receive that glorified body. Without being transformed in an instant, or raised up, how will any of us ever receive our glorified bodies? It certainly isn't at the point of death, for why else would the dead be raised up before the living if that is not the point at which we are all called up to meet Him in the clouds?
They say the rapture "theory" is goofy, and yet never really seem to have any plausible explanation for where their own eschatology fits in with the biblical texts. Anyone have any ideas in how that system of thought escapes from running aground?
MM
They say the rapture "theory" is goofy, and yet never really seem to have any plausible explanation for where their own eschatology fits in with the biblical texts. Anyone have any ideas in how that system of thought escapes from running aground?
MM
Not sure why you think Revelation is written to Israel, it is written to the Church unless you are thinking it was just for the Jews in the Church, which I find makes less sense as their is neither Jew nor Greek in the Church.
I also don't understand why you think the apostles were not sealed with the Holy Spirit? Peter said of Cornelius (a Gentile) he received the Spirit just as Peter did.
Acts 10:47
“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
I don't get why you think there are two Gospels. Peter preached Christ crucified the same as Paul.
Sorry a bad storm has blown in and I have to cur this short.
I also don't understand why you think the apostles were not sealed with the Holy Spirit? Peter said of Cornelius (a Gentile) he received the Spirit just as Peter did.
Acts 10:47
“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
I don't get why you think there are two Gospels. Peter preached Christ crucified the same as Paul.
Sorry a bad storm has blown in and I have to cur this short.
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This is a common misconception among Western Christianity, in that what is translated today as "church" in English translations of the Bible, I fully understand the lack of knowledge among those here in the West who are products of Western thinking and the influences from replacement theology. Here's a source that perhaps you will listen to. If not, then perhaps I can find one you do respect and admire. This is from Ligonier:
"God promised Abraham’s grandson Jacob that He would make his twelve sons into a harmonious worshipping “community of nations” (Gen. 28:3) that would be known by his new name, “Israel.” Significantly, the Hebrew word used here for “community” is qāhāl, which the Greek translation of the Old Testament often renders as ekklēsia, “church.”" (https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/the-church-and-israel-in-the-old-testament)
The Apostle John, who also was a Jew and under inspiration, had no problem calling the Jewish congregations in those seven cities "the church in..." Congregation, group, collection...church. Israel also was a "church" in ancient times, and once the northern ten tribes were scattered in about 752 BC, they were scattered into the very areas that were later recipients of the seven letters written by John by inspiration.
Contrary to modern, Western thought that is so greatly influenced by replacement theology, God still has a purpose for the ethnic nation Israel. If that were not the case, then any promise the Lord made to anyone would be subject to question and change at God's whims. He is not so fickle, as many modern-day theologies lead anyone to surmise dare they carry those doctrines to their logical conclusions. Spewing the lukewarm from His mouth does not and cannot refer to those of us who are sealed by Holy Spirit. The belief in loss of salvation is utterly false, lest one is prepared to defend the idea that Holy Spirit has a weak seal, or grasp, which would include Jesus Himself who also declared that there is no power in Heaven or earth that can snatch even one from His Hands.
I do not believe the apostles were any less sealed by Holy Spirit once they came to the knowledge and understanding of the Gospel of Grace. This leads into your next quandary:
Hope all is well with you and yours through that storm.
Please pay close attention to the ELEMENTS within the two different gospel messages preached by Peter and Paul.
Peter preached this:
Acts 2:37-38
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Paul preached this:
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Notice also that Christ, in all His preaching and what He taught the disciples to preach, never once included the projection of His death, burial and resurrection on the third day. The disciples had no understanding of what He meant when He revealed to them that he was going to suffer, and they were afraid to even ask. They were expecting Him to become King and to establish His Kingdom, for He preached that the Kingdom was AT HAND. That's not at all a message hinting at yet another 2000 years into the future.
There is very good reason as to why the prophetic program was put on hold, but that is a much longer discussion and involves study on your part to glean the background from the OT and NT as to why it happened as it did. The Lord had His own way of revealing that without coming right out and declaring it in a fashion that meets with the subjective demands of some out there who want it all to fall into their laps on a silver platter. I'm not saying you are of that caliber, but there are those who reject all this blindly because they're too lazy to search out the scriptures to see if it's true. Some things simply require deeper study, like Gold that must be mined deep from within the earth to acquire, such as in the gold rush days.
Hope this helps.
MM
"God promised Abraham’s grandson Jacob that He would make his twelve sons into a harmonious worshipping “community of nations” (Gen. 28:3) that would be known by his new name, “Israel.” Significantly, the Hebrew word used here for “community” is qāhāl, which the Greek translation of the Old Testament often renders as ekklēsia, “church.”" (https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/the-church-and-israel-in-the-old-testament)
The Apostle John, who also was a Jew and under inspiration, had no problem calling the Jewish congregations in those seven cities "the church in..." Congregation, group, collection...church. Israel also was a "church" in ancient times, and once the northern ten tribes were scattered in about 752 BC, they were scattered into the very areas that were later recipients of the seven letters written by John by inspiration.
Contrary to modern, Western thought that is so greatly influenced by replacement theology, God still has a purpose for the ethnic nation Israel. If that were not the case, then any promise the Lord made to anyone would be subject to question and change at God's whims. He is not so fickle, as many modern-day theologies lead anyone to surmise dare they carry those doctrines to their logical conclusions. Spewing the lukewarm from His mouth does not and cannot refer to those of us who are sealed by Holy Spirit. The belief in loss of salvation is utterly false, lest one is prepared to defend the idea that Holy Spirit has a weak seal, or grasp, which would include Jesus Himself who also declared that there is no power in Heaven or earth that can snatch even one from His Hands.
I do not believe the apostles were any less sealed by Holy Spirit once they came to the knowledge and understanding of the Gospel of Grace. This leads into your next quandary:
I don't get why you think there are two Gospels. Peter preached Christ crucified the same as Paul.
Sorry a bad storm has blown in and I have to cur this short.
Sorry a bad storm has blown in and I have to cur this short.
Please pay close attention to the ELEMENTS within the two different gospel messages preached by Peter and Paul.
Peter preached this:
Acts 2:37-38
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Paul preached this:
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Notice also that Christ, in all His preaching and what He taught the disciples to preach, never once included the projection of His death, burial and resurrection on the third day. The disciples had no understanding of what He meant when He revealed to them that he was going to suffer, and they were afraid to even ask. They were expecting Him to become King and to establish His Kingdom, for He preached that the Kingdom was AT HAND. That's not at all a message hinting at yet another 2000 years into the future.
There is very good reason as to why the prophetic program was put on hold, but that is a much longer discussion and involves study on your part to glean the background from the OT and NT as to why it happened as it did. The Lord had His own way of revealing that without coming right out and declaring it in a fashion that meets with the subjective demands of some out there who want it all to fall into their laps on a silver platter. I'm not saying you are of that caliber, but there are those who reject all this blindly because they're too lazy to search out the scriptures to see if it's true. Some things simply require deeper study, like Gold that must be mined deep from within the earth to acquire, such as in the gold rush days.
Hope this helps.
MM
Hard to believe that anyone would think Peter did not know what salvation was.
The 2 gospel heresy.
The dilemma of the garden was the separation between God and man. That separation was "holy God and sinful man".
It wasn't Plan B that God gave the remedy.
It was the only plan, which was that innocent blood was the only way for man to come back to God. From the garden until the end of Revelation there is only one gospel,
That is salvation is a person and his name is Jesus.
All the fancy dance that people come up with theologically and think they got some kind of Smoking Gun with some two gospel Theory, it's just that, a man-made Theory.
That lack of understanding of salvation, leaves the hyper Pauline into some two gospel silliness, and the folly that salvation is obtained or not obtained through a string of sentences out of the Bible.
The hyper Pauline evidently has not an ongoing intimate relationship with Jesus, or they would understand that they cannot possibly concoct a formula out of the Bible for salvation.
We had one of those "Pauline hyper two gospel people" in our men's bible study.
That guy had no inkling of salvation.
he thought it was three magic words of "death burial and Resurrection".
I showed him the devil believes in those three magic words and he'll never be saved.
The hyper Pauline is a grammatically set of verses, and certain words, by which they in their minds imagine somebody gets saved.
I love that though the Bible is so simple;... that there was a dilemma and a separation of God and man and God gave the solution.
It wasn't sentences, it was a person.
it was his son Jesus.
and I don't think there's any hyper Pauline that understands that.
I think they are somehow mentally saved. Words are a precarious trap for them.
" Paul never preached the gospel of the kingdom"
But "those other evil apostle heretics thought they were saved by works"
ACTS 28
23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the KINGDOM OF GOD, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
31 Preaching the KINGDOM OF GOD , and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Wow even Paul preached the "perverted" , (roll eyes), "kingdom Gospel" of Jesus.
Just plain goofy.
The 2 gospel heresy.
The dilemma of the garden was the separation between God and man. That separation was "holy God and sinful man".
It wasn't Plan B that God gave the remedy.
It was the only plan, which was that innocent blood was the only way for man to come back to God. From the garden until the end of Revelation there is only one gospel,
That is salvation is a person and his name is Jesus.
All the fancy dance that people come up with theologically and think they got some kind of Smoking Gun with some two gospel Theory, it's just that, a man-made Theory.
That lack of understanding of salvation, leaves the hyper Pauline into some two gospel silliness, and the folly that salvation is obtained or not obtained through a string of sentences out of the Bible.
The hyper Pauline evidently has not an ongoing intimate relationship with Jesus, or they would understand that they cannot possibly concoct a formula out of the Bible for salvation.
We had one of those "Pauline hyper two gospel people" in our men's bible study.
That guy had no inkling of salvation.
he thought it was three magic words of "death burial and Resurrection".
I showed him the devil believes in those three magic words and he'll never be saved.
The hyper Pauline is a grammatically set of verses, and certain words, by which they in their minds imagine somebody gets saved.
I love that though the Bible is so simple;... that there was a dilemma and a separation of God and man and God gave the solution.
It wasn't sentences, it was a person.
it was his son Jesus.
and I don't think there's any hyper Pauline that understands that.
I think they are somehow mentally saved. Words are a precarious trap for them.
" Paul never preached the gospel of the kingdom"
But "those other evil apostle heretics thought they were saved by works"
ACTS 28
23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the KINGDOM OF GOD, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
31 Preaching the KINGDOM OF GOD , and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Wow even Paul preached the "perverted" , (roll eyes), "kingdom Gospel" of Jesus.
Just plain goofy.
A lot of what we are discussing here is really beyond the topic of this thread. I appreciate the differences you are pointing out however I believe the differences are there for different reasons.
Just as one example. I find it hard to believe that John would be writing to a synagogue of Jews expecting them to obey the instructions of the very One they rejected.
I think you know I do not hold to replacement theology but I can't help but get the impression at times from what you have said that there is something of a "no man's land" between Israel and the Church where Jewish believers (in Christ) spend time before they join the Gospel of Grace.
It may well be I am completely misunderstanding what you are saying so I'm going to read that link you put in your post and also what you have said in the thread you started regarding two Gospels. Hopefully I'll get a better idea from where you're coming.
I most probably won't get back to you in this thread but I'm sure our paths will cross again.
grace and peace.
Just as one example. I find it hard to believe that John would be writing to a synagogue of Jews expecting them to obey the instructions of the very One they rejected.
I think you know I do not hold to replacement theology but I can't help but get the impression at times from what you have said that there is something of a "no man's land" between Israel and the Church where Jewish believers (in Christ) spend time before they join the Gospel of Grace.
It may well be I am completely misunderstanding what you are saying so I'm going to read that link you put in your post and also what you have said in the thread you started regarding two Gospels. Hopefully I'll get a better idea from where you're coming.
I most probably won't get back to you in this thread but I'm sure our paths will cross again.
grace and peace.