Understanding God’s election
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You raise an interesting question: Is God free to do evil? Is God the Father able to change His will, is God the Son free to sin, and could God the Holy Spirit become demonic? Is it possible for God to be tricky?
If God cannot do what He has decreed to be evil, then He would not be as free as volitional humanity created in His image, and there would be no basis for praising His holiness. Just as God created physical laws such as gravity, so He created moral laws such as “love everyone” and determined a plan of salvation involving the atoning death of Messiah to win our redemption from hell. Thou shalt love (MT 22:37-40).
The Bible clearly teaches that God the Son is free to sin in HB 2:14-18 & 4:15), and Paul (in RM 9:16-21) upholds the freedom of God to love or hate as He chooses. The cliche “might makes right” is true; it is because God is almighty that only He can determine what is right ultimately. There is no super-divine authority that determines God; God is self-determined. The only basis humans have for evaluating whether God is just is understanding how God’s acts and judgments are consistent with the moral principles He has ordained for those created in His image (RM 3:22-26).
If God were ever to change His mind, it would mean that God is tricky and that morality is ultimately arbitrary. Thus, ultimate reality would indeed be a farce. This is why we should not take God and divine love for granted. Instead, we should be eternally grateful that God has decreed loving to be right, and He promises never to change (ML 3:6). Let us praise God in the spirit of Psalm 66:1: “Shout with joy to God, all the earth! Sing to the glory of his name; Offer him glory and praise!”
If God cannot do what He has decreed to be evil, then He would not be as free as volitional humanity created in His image, and there would be no basis for praising His holiness. Just as God created physical laws such as gravity, so He created moral laws such as “love everyone” and determined a plan of salvation involving the atoning death of Messiah to win our redemption from hell. Thou shalt love (MT 22:37-40).
The Bible clearly teaches that God the Son is free to sin in HB 2:14-18 & 4:15), and Paul (in RM 9:16-21) upholds the freedom of God to love or hate as He chooses. The cliche “might makes right” is true; it is because God is almighty that only He can determine what is right ultimately. There is no super-divine authority that determines God; God is self-determined. The only basis humans have for evaluating whether God is just is understanding how God’s acts and judgments are consistent with the moral principles He has ordained for those created in His image (RM 3:22-26).
If God were ever to change His mind, it would mean that God is tricky and that morality is ultimately arbitrary. Thus, ultimate reality would indeed be a farce. This is why we should not take God and divine love for granted. Instead, we should be eternally grateful that God has decreed loving to be right, and He promises never to change (ML 3:6). Let us praise God in the spirit of Psalm 66:1: “Shout with joy to God, all the earth! Sing to the glory of his name; Offer him glory and praise!”
None of the passages you cited teach the peccability of Christ or God. Rather, scripture teaches the impeccability of both! God cannot lie! God cannot DENY himself, i.e. cannot deny who and what he is in his essence (nature). It's cold comfort to know that the triune God is capable of sinning. I thank God for his impeccability and immutability.
And, yes, Jesus was tempted from without -- but never from within! Conversely, man is neither impeccable or immutable. Far from it!
Here's a link if you're interested:
https://www.gotquestions.org/could-Jesus-have-sinned.html
And another reason the the triune God cannot sin is because God is FREE FROM all evil influences. This makes him FREE TO only do what is righteous, just, holy and good.
Tell me: Do you think the saints in our glorified state will be able sin?
Yes, Ephesians 1:11 can be taken to mean that God chooses without the knowledge and consent of individuals. However, Romans 8:29 adds the idea that God knew who would receive Christ.
The problem with the concept of election solely by God's choice is that it contradicts His word.
"The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
"....who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:4
God has never withdrawn His gift of free will from mankind. The opposite, man is entirely responsible for everything he says and does. Jesus told us to pray, "Your will be done, on earth as in heaven." Why? Because God's will is not done automatically.
That's why I believe unconditional election is wrong. Does it matter? No, as long as the gospel is preached. Hyper Calvinism says that there is no point in preaching the gospel as God is going to save His elect anyway. That is obviously false. But that is the logical conclusion of unconditional election.
The problem with the concept of election solely by God's choice is that it contradicts His word.
"The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
"....who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:4
God has never withdrawn His gift of free will from mankind. The opposite, man is entirely responsible for everything he says and does. Jesus told us to pray, "Your will be done, on earth as in heaven." Why? Because God's will is not done automatically.
That's why I believe unconditional election is wrong. Does it matter? No, as long as the gospel is preached. Hyper Calvinism says that there is no point in preaching the gospel as God is going to save His elect anyway. That is obviously false. But that is the logical conclusion of unconditional election.
Duuuhhhh, right! You don't need knowedge to have distherernment!
Here's your problem.
Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.
That means?
You will be held captive to your own wrong way of thinking without God's knowledge to expose and check you!
Self-righteousness is always self-assured that his way is the correct way…
Because he just feels it must be so.
For after all? God feels the same way as you do on a matter.
Right?
Isaiah 55:8
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
That means? You must get KNOWLEDGE!
Teaching from someone who has been tested, and proven, able to teach sound doctrine.
.............
No, my premise is logical, whereas yours fails to explain how a soul who does not know he is sinning is sinning.
Regarding Scripture, Paul explains quite clearly in RM 7:7-13 and GL 3:19-25 that the law was given so that souls would know they were sinners. It is true that intentional ignorance of truth a person had the opportunity to learn/option of learning is blameworthy.
Man can know of the existence of God through creation and conscience, but nowhere does it say man will be condemned to hell even though he had no ability/opportunity to be saved. On the contrary, souls are without excuse because they had the option to seek God and LGW (RM 1:20).
The wisdom of the world Paul cited in 1CR 1:21 is contrasted with GW or the wisdom of God in 2:6-7, which is the mind of Christ (v.16), the incarnate Logos (JN 1:14), and Paul taught (in 1TM 2:3-4) that God wants every sinner to LGW and be saved or enter into a relationship with Him in Christ, just as Peter did in MT 16:15-17. Keep reading and you should learn this truth. So much for the "fallen estate of man. "Stop considering what you think must be true of God and allow what scripture actually reveals to shape your understanding."
Regarding Scripture, Paul explains quite clearly in RM 7:7-13 and GL 3:19-25 that the law was given so that souls would know they were sinners. It is true that intentional ignorance of truth a person had the opportunity to learn/option of learning is blameworthy.
Man can know of the existence of God through creation and conscience, but nowhere does it say man will be condemned to hell even though he had no ability/opportunity to be saved. On the contrary, souls are without excuse because they had the option to seek God and LGW (RM 1:20).
The wisdom of the world Paul cited in 1CR 1:21 is contrasted with GW or the wisdom of God in 2:6-7, which is the mind of Christ (v.16), the incarnate Logos (JN 1:14), and Paul taught (in 1TM 2:3-4) that God wants every sinner to LGW and be saved or enter into a relationship with Him in Christ, just as Peter did in MT 16:15-17. Keep reading and you should learn this truth. So much for the "fallen estate of man. "Stop considering what you think must be true of God and allow what scripture actually reveals to shape your understanding."
Duuuhhhh, right! You don't need knowedge to have distherernment!
Here's your problem.
Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.
That means?
You will be held captive to your own wrong way of thinking without God's knowledge to expose and check you!
Self-righteousness is always self-assured that his way is the correct way…
Because he just feels it must be so.
For after all? God feels the same way as you do on a matter.
Right?
Isaiah 55:8
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
That means? You must get KNOWLEDGE!
Teaching from someone who has been tested, and proven, able to teach sound doctrine.
.............
How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
[Pro 7:7 KJV]
And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,
[Pro 8:5 KJV]
O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
[Pro 14:15 KJV]
The simple believeth every word: but the prudent [man] looketh well to his going.
[Pro 14:18 KJV]
The simple inherit folly: but the prudent are crowned with knowledge.
[Pro 22:3 KJV]
A prudent [man] foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.
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Yes, God knew who would receive Christ because he predestined them in eternity for salvation.
And you're taking 2Pet 3:9 and 1Tim 2:4 out of context. In the former passage, Peter is saying that God does not want any of his readers (the ELECT) to perish. (Pay careful attention to personal pronouns in that passage.) And in the latter passage, Paul is referring to the Gentiles.
And you're taking 2Pet 3:9 and 1Tim 2:4 out of context. In the former passage, Peter is saying that God does not want any of his readers (the ELECT) to perish. (Pay careful attention to personal pronouns in that passage.) And in the latter passage, Paul is referring to the Gentiles.
Like? Is Donald Trump free to deny the truth for a nickle?
Evil is an absolutely putrid, cheap substitute, for what God knows Truth has in store.
Man sins because he is born with the same kind of flesh Adam fell into.
Now, if God's grace-power keeps the flesh in check while giving a man's soul FREEDOM to choose?
Then the depravity of man has been conquered!
That is what @Rufus just does not yet have the capacity to comprehend, because of all the brainwashing he
is wishing to perfect as to gain himself power in this world… All while being done in the name of righteousness.
Jesus put up with false teachers.
So did Paul.
So did John.
And, so did Peter....
False teachers will always oppose the Truth…
While desiring to receive approbation from their invisible influencers, to ironically please their own flesh.
Only Sound Bible doctrine can make us free when accepted and understood
In contrast, the false teachers equate freedom with thinking freely without integrity.
The Lord sees all.
Evil is an absolutely putrid, cheap substitute, for what God knows Truth has in store.
Man sins because he is born with the same kind of flesh Adam fell into.
Now, if God's grace-power keeps the flesh in check while giving a man's soul FREEDOM to choose?
Then the depravity of man has been conquered!
That is what @Rufus just does not yet have the capacity to comprehend, because of all the brainwashing he
is wishing to perfect as to gain himself power in this world… All while being done in the name of righteousness.
Jesus put up with false teachers.
So did Paul.
So did John.
And, so did Peter....
False teachers will always oppose the Truth…
While desiring to receive approbation from their invisible influencers, to ironically please their own flesh.
Only Sound Bible doctrine can make us free when accepted and understood
In contrast, the false teachers equate freedom with thinking freely without integrity.
The Lord sees all.
Duuuhhhh, right! You don't need knowedge to have distherernment!
Here's your problem.
Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.
That means?
You will be held captive to your own wrong way of thinking without God's knowledge to expose and check you!
Self-righteousness is always self-assured that his way is the correct way…
Because he just feels it must be so.
For after all? God feels the same way as you do on a matter.
Right?
Isaiah 55:8
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
That means? You must get KNOWLEDGE!
Teaching from someone who has been tested, and proven, able to teach sound doctrine.
.............
Regarding "It's cold comfort to know that the triune God is capable of sinning. I thank God for his impeccability and immutability." IOW, you lack faith that God was telling the truth when He said man is created in His image and that He will never change His will to be all-loving, so you are glad God is an amoral automaton, programmed to appear as an angel of love.
Regarding "Jesus was tempted from without -- but never from within!" Scripture does not make that distinction, but rather says "He was tempted in every way just as we are..." (HB 4:15).
Regarding "God cannot sin is because God is FREE FROM all evil influences". God CREATED evil influences or options! If He is not able to choose them, then He is not free but merely forced to "do what is righteous, just, holy and good."
You asked, "Do you think the saints in our glorified state will be able sin?" Yes. Apparently, souls who are saints or saved sinners in heaven retain the freedom to sin by rejecting God, which Satan and his minions are indicated to have exercised (in LK 10:18, MT 25:41, JUDE v.6, cf. EZK 28:15-19). Perhaps the main reason for humanity to be saved by means of this earthly sojourn is to teach them not to make the same mistake!
Regarding "Jesus was tempted from without -- but never from within!" Scripture does not make that distinction, but rather says "He was tempted in every way just as we are..." (HB 4:15).
Regarding "God cannot sin is because God is FREE FROM all evil influences". God CREATED evil influences or options! If He is not able to choose them, then He is not free but merely forced to "do what is righteous, just, holy and good."
You asked, "Do you think the saints in our glorified state will be able sin?" Yes. Apparently, souls who are saints or saved sinners in heaven retain the freedom to sin by rejecting God, which Satan and his minions are indicated to have exercised (in LK 10:18, MT 25:41, JUDE v.6, cf. EZK 28:15-19). Perhaps the main reason for humanity to be saved by means of this earthly sojourn is to teach them not to make the same mistake!
I may not be perfect, but I am perfectly willing to devour 12 hours of fine Bible lectures non-stop.
And then listen to them all at least 2 or 3 (sometimes 5 or 6) times over again.
And that is just the cursory background info.
Then I undertake the other 80 or 120 hours of lectures to get a better grasp of the subject matter.
How about you?
And then listen to them all at least 2 or 3 (sometimes 5 or 6) times over again.
And that is just the cursory background info.
Then I undertake the other 80 or 120 hours of lectures to get a better grasp of the subject matter.
How about you?
And I see with all that that studying, hitting the books and all those PH.D. lecturers, you have learned to be proud, arrogant and boastful.
It's no wonder at all that it's written:
1 Cor 1:26-29
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
KJV
But don't let me stand in the way of your vainglory! You remind me of the back-slapping, self-righteous Pharisees of Jesus' day.
It's no wonder at all that it's written:
1 Cor 1:26-29
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
KJV
But don't let me stand in the way of your vainglory! You remind me of the back-slapping, self-righteous Pharisees of Jesus' day.
To whom was Peter writing his second epistle? The world? No, the elect can never perish, but Peter's original audience was in danger of falling away, hence the warning. Again, pay very close attention to the personal pronouns used in the passage. Also, why would God be longsuffering towards Peter's audience if it was the people of the world that God didn't want to perish? Logically, God should be patient with the people he doesn't want to perish! But that's now how the passage reads.