Amillennialism

[shroom2]

...who wants to admit they held wrong beliefs?

Are you capable of this, zone?

 

[unclefester]

what makes my head spin is how people can believe that God has two separate covenants still in place instead of His people being made up of both jew and gentile with Jesus as the Root of David.....

the video looked like the guy had ants in his pants, trying to figure out how that is edifying, comforting or exhorting anyone to the glory of God. mmmm maybe its my lil ole brain but I don't see it, any help?

Nope. No help from this end Ananda. But who are we to question "the power of God" in action ? I guess we are to believe that Jesus’ ministry was merely a step in God’s "ultimate plan of triumph" ...... which will be realized when He gets back to working with Israel the nation once again. To believe in dispensationalism is to believe that Jesus didn't fulfill the calling and role of Israel. Apparently the pre-mil rapture will bring an end to the church age (all true believers will be zapped up) and this will allow God to start afresh His "real" plan for Israel. Purely and solely ridiculous. There are not two separate covenants in place. Israel rejected Christ. They were not "set aside for future re-consideration". God's criteria thru Christ is for both Jew and gentile alike. There are no exceptions.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

ya Abiding.
you seem like a nice guy.....BUT.

what's a nice guy like you doing in a thread like this.....

*yawn*
mikey you can pretend we don't know each other if you want to. maybe it'll be well with you in the dispie camp. why they have chosen to build a camp that's nowhere near the Foundation i have no idea.

but politiking they will do....who wants to admit they held wrong beliefs?

such a waste of precious time.
and a lot of tears when the truth comes out.

dunno how many ex-dispies have to testify to it before folks will reconsider.

anyhow.

I do. I desperately want to admit my previous erroneous Dispensational beliefs every chance I get; and my other wrong beliefs, especially those that kept me from salvific faith. I also want to present the truth that made me free.

 

[AnandaHya]

The little birdie was right, because the early bird gets the worm and does not use it for bait like some dirty birds do.

eehh but the early worm gets eaten and does not care if you use it for bait or not cuz its still dead.

so is a faith that says Jesus does NOT reign in Heaven and has NOT cast out Satan and his corrupt angels into the footstool of Earth.

saiah 66

True Worship and False

1 Thus says the LORD:


“ Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
Where is the house that you will build Me?
And where is the place of My rest?
2 For all those things My hand has made,
And all those things exist,”
Says the LORD.

“ But on this one will I look:
On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit,
And who trembles at My word.

7 “ Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.
9 Shall I bring to the time of birth, and not cause delivery?” says the LORD

Revelation 12

1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope. No help from this end Ananda. But who are we to question "the power of God" in action ? I guess we are to believe that Jesus’ ministry was merely a step in God’s "ultimate plan of triumph" ...... which will be realized when He gets back to working with Israel the nation once again. To believe in dispensationalism is to believe that Jesus didn't fulfill the calling and role of Israel. Apparently the pre-mil rapture will bring an end to the church age (all true believers will be zapped up) and this will allow God to start afresh His "real" plan for Israel. Purely and solely ridiculous. There are not two separate covenants in place. Israel rejected Christ. They were not "set aside for future re-consideration". God's criteria thru Christ is for both Jew and gentile alike. There are no exceptions.

I was not going to respond in this thread anymore. But sonce your a reasonable person I will respond to this. Only because yet again you do not understand my believe.

1. There are not two covenants. there is one.

2. The one covenant has two parts.

a. All this land I give to you and your children.
b. In you shall All the nations of the earth be blessed.

Christ fulfilled part b. As through Abraham's seed. (Christ) All the nations (Jew and gentile) are blessed. As salvation is offered to all.

Christ had no part in part A. It was made by God. the only stipulation was that there would be a 400 year wait, because the son of the Ammorites had not yet been complete. Other than that. This "Land contract" was an eternal covenant between Abraham, Issac and Jacob only.

God gave provisions through the mosaic law which were to be met by these children if they were to posses the land God gave them. (Never was we told Israel would never own it. Only that they would be removed by the land God gave them. a huge difference) We find this is Lev 26. If one would read it. they would see the final part of rejection of these provisions were fulfilled in AD 70 because if Israels sin. But if we read on. God makes it clear. If Israel were to repent. God would restore them to her land. This is a binding Contract. It has not been fulfilled, It is still in effect. If Israel as a nation repents. God will restore them.

Then we have OT prophesy over and over which says Israel will sin. They will be removed COMPLETELY (which never happened until ad 70) and spread throughout the gentile nations., But repeatedly we are told Israel at some time will repent. And God will restore them to the land promised Abraham Issac and Jacob.

Rapture of the church has nothing to do with this contract. It will occur whether the rapture happens or it does not.

I wish people would actually try to figure out what others believe, and not assume they know already.

I respect you brother. And I love ya as a brother.

But to have my believe laughed at and mocked at when people do not even know what it is. only what they have been told it is. or a believe they themselves had before (which is different than mine) I will never understand.

 

[AnandaHya]

What Happens to ALL Land? What is ETERNAL?

Revelation 21
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

THAT is the fulfillment of God's "land" promise. that is what GOD says is ETERNAL.

two part one covenant doesn't make a difference

the covenant is still with GOD"S PEOPLE who are made so THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. all who reject the SON reject the FATHER and make void any covenant or promise for it is not to THEM but to THE Seed who is Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What Happens to ALL Land? What is ETERNAL?

Revelation 21
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

THAT is the fulfillment of God's "land" promise. that is what GOD says is ETERNAL.

two part one covenant doesn't make a difference

the covenant is still with GOD"S PEOPLE who are made so THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. all who reject the SON reject the FATHER and make void any covenant or promise for it is not to THEM but to THE Seed who is Christ.

When God gives that land. The land of canaan we know of today will be destroyed.

As long as there is a land of canaan on earth. The promise is given.

No one in the church was promised a land of canaan. If they were. we would possess it right now. And live the peace God promised Israel if they followed his commands. Bit we don't. Because that promise was not given to us. In fact God makes it clear. The promise is not to those outside the seed (through Ishmael or anyone else) but only given to the child born of sarah (Isaac. And Jacob)

trying to spiritualise a promise given to a people will not help. God literally fullfilled the "all nations shall be blessed" He will also literally ulfill "I give this land to you and to your childrens children" If they repent.

Scripture says they will. I take scripture literally!

 

[Red33]

Are you capable of this, zone?

Of course not, because she has done her homework, but no one else has put the effort into it like she has. The problem is that she did the wrong assignment and her teacher won't give her credit. She is out of sync with the rest of her class, especially her teacher and she is too obstinate to humble herself and get with the program and the lesson plan. She is as independent as it gets, and you ain't telling her what to believe, you can bet your bottom dollar on that. She won't bother throwing you under the bus, she gets in and drives the bus right over you while she mocks you and laughs it up with her friends leaving you there as road-kill. Then she goes off with her friends to have some coffee and pastries or maybe her favorite adult beverage.

 

[Red33]

eehh but the early worm gets eaten and does not care if you use it for bait or not cuz its still dead.

so is a faith that says Jesus does NOT reign in Heaven and has NOT cast out Satan and his corrupt angels into the footstool of Earth.

saiah 66

True Worship and False

1 Thus says the LORD:


“ Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
Where is the house that you will build Me?
And where is the place of My rest?
2 For all those things My hand has made,
And all those things exist,”
Says the LORD.

“ But on this one will I look:
On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit,
And who trembles at My word.

7 “ Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.
9 Shall I bring to the time of birth, and not cause delivery?” says the LORD

Revelation 12

1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

You stll don't think the Holy Spirit can be your adversary? Did you figure out who the judge and officer are? And what about that prison?

 

[zone]

Are you capable of this, zone?

of course shroom.
any idea how ticked off i was to attend church for the first time and be asked as a group:

who believes in the RAPTURE raise your hands...and have everyone but me raise their hands....though never having HEARD OF IT TIL THEN, i began to raise my hand but it was held frozen half-way up...i simply was unable to raise my arm.

then any idea how hearetbroken i wasto attend another church for a time, to have them distribute the Purpose Driven Life with oaths to sign? and to be told i was unteachable when i made an appointment to see the pastor to say that this was NOT GOOD for the church?

i held wrong beliefs about buildings with steeples on them for a long long time.

i wrongly believed that i would be fed the word of God no matter where i went if it said CHURCH on the door.

lots of other wrong beliefs too. about people....who said they read the Bible, but i knew they didn't.

and i believed for a time that falling down and crawling on hands and knees and gibbering and claiming God was speaking was somehow within orthodoxy, though somewhat odd.....inexplicable, considering any simple reading of The Book of Acts as an Historical record of the acts the apostles and the foundation of the Church was just easy to see.....but after all, didn't everyone say Jesus Christ was their Lord?

who was i to say any different.

i held wrong beliefs about modern Bible versions, and then the KJV only crowd for a time.

i held wrong beliefs that every Roman Catholic in the world was damned to hell.

for a time i believed everyone who said they were jewish was a Biblical Hebrew.

but when i was a child i spoke as a child.
when i worked hard and went sleepless, and petitioned the Lord for THE TRUTH AT ANY COST TO MYSELF some of those wrong beliefs became clear.

lots of other things i have believed wrongly for a time.

what does that have to do with AMILLENNIALISM?

 

[zone]

Oh I have plenty of thoughts but why bother typing them out when you just trample them all down. This is not fellowship. This is you with your little followers. So why bother? And to use a picture of the armour to mock those who disagree with amill.ism is a bit dirty. Its not funny even though you may think it is. You tear down, zone, you dont lift up.

Willfully ignorant? You dont know me, so stop with your assumptions.

there are lots of christians who will play softball with you over core doctrines.
i'm not one of them.

but you knew that right away. so why bother?

 

[zone]

Amil might not seem like such a foreign and odd concept if people were baptized in to the Bible and not in to Hal Lindsey books.

but many will claim loudly they never hearda the guy

 

[zone]

How is it undone, zone? Christianity is made up of both Jews and gentiles. Nobody said different.


Have I gotten "very angry"?

You make blanket statements that simply aren't true just to elevate what you believe and denigrate what you disagree with.

if Christ has not fulfilled Daniel 9 and laid the foundation, there is NO CHRISTIANITY.
so jews and gentiles are all still dead in their trespasses and sins, including you and me.

no, you havn't gotten angry.

i said those who are rejecting the truth are getting angry. at least you're looking at both sides (i know this, because we've talked).

shroom....why would i want to elevate WHAT I BELIEVE?

i want to elevate THE TRUTH. if half of the evangelicals deny Jesus fulfilled Daniel 9 whose fault is that?
mine?

should i NOT SPEAK THE TRUTH?

i will denegrate dispensationalism because it is opposed to the Truth.

that's why it was given to the church....to deceive, if it were possible (which it ultimately is not) the elect.

 

[zone]

Nope. No help from this end Ananda. But who are we to question "the power of God" in action ? I guess we are to believe that Jesus’ ministry was merely a step in God’s "ultimate plan of triumph" ...... which will be realized when He gets back to working with Israel the nation once again. To believe in dispensationalism is to believe that Jesus didn't fulfill the calling and role of Israel. Apparently the pre-mil rapture will bring an end to the church age (all true believers will be zapped up) and this will allow God to start afresh His "real" plan for Israel. Purely and solely ridiculous. There are not two separate covenants in place. Israel rejected Christ. They were not "set aside for future re-consideration". God's criteria thru Christ is for both Jew and gentile alike. There are no exceptions.

how, how, how is THIS NOT CLEARLY SEEN?
how could anyone believe otherwise?

it is obscene.

 

[zone]

I do. I desperately want to admit my previous erroneous Dispensational beliefs every chance I get; and my other wrong beliefs, especially those that kept me from salvific faith. I also want to present the truth that made me free.

love you brother.
a true christian TESTIFIES to what he has been delievered from.
and SOLA DEI GLORIA.

PPS...what started the dispensational untruths unravelling for you?
how did you come out of it?

how did you come to recognize you were believing wrongly about futurism?

what did it cost you when you came to the Truth? did you have to confess it, since you said you had been teaching it. how did you deal with it?

there's a pastor on sermonaudio (i forget his name currently but will find it...Trevor something i think), he testifies all the time that he taught his church all that, then came out of it and The Lord gently delivered the whole congregation out...they didn't lose a member! its a beautiful story, and a major witness.

love you pps
zoney

 

[zone]

I was not going to respond in this thread anymore. But sonce your a reasonable person I will respond to this. Only because yet again you do not understand my believe.

1. There are not two covenants. there is one.

2. The one covenant has two parts.

a. All this land I give to you and your children.
b. In you shall All the nations of the earth be blessed.

Christ fulfilled part b. As through Abraham's seed. (Christ) All the nations (Jew and gentile) are blessed. As salvation is offered to all.

Christ had no part in part A. It was made by God. the only stipulation was that there would be a 400 year wait, because the son of the Ammorites had not yet been complete. Other than that. This "Land contract" was an eternal covenant between Abraham, Issac and Jacob only.

God gave provisions through the mosaic law which were to be met by these children if they were to posses the land God gave them. (Never was we told Israel would never own it. Only that they would be removed by the land God gave them. a huge difference) We find this is Lev 26. If one would read it. they would see the final part of rejection of these provisions were fulfilled in AD 70 because if Israels sin. But if we read on. God makes it clear. If Israel were to repent. God would restore them to her land. This is a binding Contract. It has not been fulfilled, It is still in effect. If Israel as a nation repents. God will restore them.

Then we have OT prophesy over and over which says Israel will sin. They will be removed COMPLETELY (which never happened until ad 70) and spread throughout the gentile nations., But repeatedly we are told Israel at some time will repent. And God will restore them to the land promised Abraham Issac and Jacob.

Rapture of the church has nothing to do with this contract. It will occur whether the rapture happens or it does not.

I wish people would actually try to figure out what others believe, and not assume they know already.

I respect you brother. And I love ya as a brother.

But to have my believe laughed at and mocked at when people do not even know what it is. only what they have been told it is. or a believe they themselves had before (which is different than mine) I will never understand.

the Mosaic Covenant is folded up and put away.
even if the land promises hadn't been fulfilled, there's no more Mosaic Covenant.

 

[zone]

Of course not, because she has done her homework, but no one else has put the effort into it like she has. The problem is that she did the wrong assignment and her teacher won't give her credit. She is out of sync with the rest of her class, especially her teacher and she is too obstinate to humble herself and get with the program and the lesson plan. She is as independent as it gets, and you ain't telling her what to believe, you can bet your bottom dollar on that. She won't bother throwing you under the bus, she gets in and drives the bus right over you while she mocks you and laughs it up with her friends leaving you there as road-kill. Then she goes off with her friends to have some coffee and pastries or maybe her favorite adult beverage.

Red,
i'm sorry you believe what you do.
but you see, it's not my problem.
its yours.

it is your responsibility to understand scripture.

you have made your choice. if that means you say such things about me, it is still not my problem.

dispensational theology is not from God.

 

[Strangelove]

I was not going to respond in this thread anymore. But sonce your a reasonable person I will respond to this. Only because yet again you do not understand my believe.

1. There are not two covenants. there is one.

2. The one covenant has two parts.

a. All this land I give to you and your children.
b. In you shall All the nations of the earth be blessed.

Christ fulfilled part b. As through Abraham's seed. (Christ) All the nations (Jew and gentile) are blessed. As salvation is offered to all.

Christ had no part in part A. It was made by God. the only stipulation was that there would be a 400 year wait, because the son of the Ammorites had not yet been complete. Other than that. This "Land contract" was an eternal covenant between Abraham, Issac and Jacob only.

God gave provisions through the mosaic law which were to be met by these children if they were to posses the land God gave them. (Never was we told Israel would never own it. Only that they would be removed by the land God gave them. a huge difference) We find this is Lev 26. If one would read it. they would see the final part of rejection of these provisions were fulfilled in AD 70 because if Israels sin. But if we read on. God makes it clear. If Israel were to repent. God would restore them to her land. This is a binding Contract. It has not been fulfilled, It is still in effect. If Israel as a nation repents. God will restore them.

Then we have OT prophesy over and over which says Israel will sin. They will be removed COMPLETELY (which never happened until ad 70) and spread throughout the gentile nations., But repeatedly we are told Israel at some time will repent. And God will restore them to the land promised Abraham Issac and Jacob.

Rapture of the church has nothing to do with this contract. It will occur whether the rapture happens or it does not.

I wish people would actually try to figure out what others believe, and not assume they know already.

I respect you brother. And I love ya as a brother.

But to have my believe laughed at and mocked at when people do not even know what it is. only what they have been told it is. or a believe they themselves had before (which is different than mine) I will never understand.

How do you know the land promise hasn't been fulfilled?

For all you know the handful of ancestors of natural ancient Israel ARE dwelling in Palestine.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the Mosaic Covenant is folded up and put away.
even if the land promises hadn't been fulfilled, there's no more Mosaic Covenant.

Mosaic law never saved anyone. In this sense. There never was a mosaic covenant.

This is where some pre millers got it wrong. They assume it is how those in the OT after moses Got saved. and assume they will go back to it when the church leaves. And I assume they think it iwll happen during the mellinium They are wrong. Then again. I Am not one of them.

The land Contract was not mosaic anyway. It was Abraham. This covenant was not done away with. Thus it still stands even today. That is why Israel is not in her land. She is being punished as per lev 26. But if (actually when she repents as scripture says she will) She will be returned to her land.

 

[Strangelove]

When God gives that land. The land of canaan we know of today will be destroyed.

As long as there is a land of canaan on earth. The promise is given.

No one in the church was promised a land of canaan. If they were. we would possess it right now. And live the peace God promised Israel if they followed his commands. Bit we don't. Because that promise was not given to us. In fact God makes it clear. The promise is not to those outside the seed (through Ishmael or anyone else) but only given to the child born of sarah (Isaac. And Jacob)

trying to spiritualise a promise given to a people will not help. God literally fullfilled the "all nations shall be blessed" He will also literally ulfill "I give this land to you and to your childrens children" If they repent.

Scripture says they will. I take scripture literally!

How do you know God hasnt literally fulfilled this land promise that you are obsessed with?

LAND LAND LAND!!!

Its MUD dude!!