Amillennialism

[eternally-gratefull]

of course shroom.
any idea how ticked off i was to attend church for the first time and be asked as a group:

who believes in the RAPTURE raise your hands...and have everyone but me raise their hands....though never having HEARD OF IT TIL THEN, i began to raise my hand but it was held frozen half-way up...i simply was unable to raise my arm.

then any idea how hearetbroken i wasto attend another church for a time, to have them distribute the Purpose Driven Life with oaths to sign? and to be told i was unteachable when i made an appointment to see the pastor to say that this was NOT GOOD for the church?

i held wrong beliefs about buildings with steeples on them for a long long time.

i wrongly believed that i would be fed the word of God no matter where i went if it said CHURCH on the door.

lots of other wrong beliefs too. about people....who said they read the Bible, but i knew they didn't.

and i believed for a time that falling down and crawling on hands and knees and gibbering and claiming God was speaking was somehow within orthodoxy, though somewhat odd.....inexplicable, considering any simple reading of The Book of Acts as an Historical record of the acts the apostles and the foundation of the Church was just easy to see.....but after all, didn't everyone say Jesus Christ was their Lord?

who was i to say any different.

i held wrong beliefs about modern Bible versions, and then the KJV only crowd for a time.

i held wrong beliefs that every Roman Catholic in the world was damned to hell.

for a time i believed everyone who said they were jewish was a Biblical Hebrew.

but when i was a child i spoke as a child.
when i worked hard and went sleepless, and petitioned the Lord for THE TRUTH AT ANY COST TO MYSELF some of those wrong beliefs became clear.

lots of other things i have believed wrongly for a time.

what does that have to do with AMILLENNIALISM?

The first church I went to, My mother was asked to stand up. And she was told she was doomed to hell because she smoked.

There are some BAD BAD churches out there. But just because you were humiliated by this one church. does not mean all who believe in premill are in error.

 

[Strangelove]

Of course not, because she has done her homework, but no one else has put the effort into it like she has. The problem is that she did the wrong assignment and her teacher won't give her credit. She is out of sync with the rest of her class, especially her teacher and she is too obstinate to humble herself and get with the program and the lesson plan. She is as independent as it gets, and you ain't telling her what to believe, you can bet your bottom dollar on that. She won't bother throwing you under the bus, she gets in and drives the bus right over you while she mocks you and laughs it up with her friends leaving you there as road-kill. Then she goes off with her friends to have some coffee and pastries or maybe her favorite adult beverage.

You spend alot of time typing out slander Red.

 

[Strangelove]

Mosaic law never saved anyone. In this sense. There never was a mosaic covenant.

This is where some pre millers got it wrong. They assume it is how those in the OT after moses Got saved. and assume they will go back to it when the church leaves. And I assume they think it iwll happen during the mellinium They are wrong. Then again. I Am not one of them.

The land Contract was not mosaic anyway. It was Abraham. This covenant was not done away with. Thus it still stands even today. That is why Israel is not in her land. She is being punished as per lev 26. But if (actually when she repents as scripture says she will) She will be returned to her land.

How do you know Israel is not in her land?

 

[shroom2]

if Christ has not fulfilled Daniel 9 and laid the foundation, there is NO CHRISTIANITY.
so jews and gentiles are all still dead in their trespasses and sins, including you and me.

Please bear with me.

Obviously Christ did what he needed to do to make Christianity available. You and I are living proof.

Please explain how you believe Daniel 9:27 has already been fulfilled.
27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I do not believe it has happened yet. It will take place in the book of Revelation. The antichrist will make a covenant with Israel, then break it 3 1/2 years later.

no, you havn't gotten angry.

i said those who are rejecting the truth are getting angry. at least you're looking at both sides (i know this, because we've talked).

Yes, I am considering what you say. But so far, I have seen nothing that is close to convincing me to switch teams.

shroom....why would i want to elevate WHAT I BELIEVE?

i want to elevate THE TRUTH. if half of the evangelicals deny Jesus fulfilled Daniel 9 whose fault is that?
mine?

should i NOT SPEAK THE TRUTH?

If you have the truth, yes. What is dangerous is to be so obstinately convinced you have the truth, when you may not.

I will denegrate dispensationalism because it is opposed to the Truth.

I do not believe it is. In fact, it is required to properly understand the bible.

that's why it was given to the church....to deceive, if it were possible (which it ultimately is not) the elect.

I disagree (obviously).

 

[zone]

Mosaic law never saved anyone. In this sense. There never was a mosaic covenant.

This is where some pre millers got it wrong. They assume it is how those in the OT after moses Got saved. and assume they will go back to it when the church leaves. And I assume they think it iwll happen during the mellinium They are wrong. Then again. I Am not one of them.

The land Contract was not mosaic anyway. It was Abraham. This covenant was not done away with. Thus it still stands even today. That is why Israel is not in her land. She is being punished as per lev 26. But if (actually when she repents as scripture says she will) She will be returned to her land.

abraham never looked for a continuing city.
none of the men of faith did.

the apostates did. that's why they rejected Jesus. they wanted PHYSICAL.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

but many will claim loudly they never hearda the guy

I'm less disturbed by those who actually HAVE read Lindsay and LaHaye or Ryrie and Scofield, and have at least read the Word enough to "support" their incorrect view with scripture. Indoctrination with some measure of study added is better than rote affiliation by casual cultural and peer influence. A death of the letter can be resurrected by the life of the Spirit; refuting vague unsupported assent of opinion based on relational influence is virtually completely futile.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

abraham never looked for a continuing city.
none of the men of faith did.

Thats funny Daniel did. Thats the reason he prayed. and the reason Gabriel was sent to answer his prayer.

the apostates did. that's why they rejected Jesus. they wanted PHYSICAL.

The apostates did not think they needed a savior. they thought the law made them worthy. they looked for the king. And when their king showed up as the suffering survant and not the messiah. they rejected him, because they did not know the suffering servant and the messiah were one and the same

 

[Strangelove]

Please explain how you believe Daniel 9:27 has already been fulfilled.
27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Jesus, His ministry, the Cross, the New Covenant, the end of Mosaic Law, the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

A beautiful prophecy, fulfilled.

 

[Strangelove]

The apostates did not think they needed a savior. they thought the law made them worthy. they looked for the king. And when their king showed up as the suffering survant and not the messiah. they rejected him, because they did not know the suffering servant and the messiah were one and the same

Lolz! what a mess!

So is Jesus King or not?

If so, the King needs a Kingdom...and it's upon us...so whats with the future kingdom fable?

 

[zone]

Please bear with me.

Obviously Christ did what he needed to do to make Christianity available. You and I are living proof.

Please explain how you believe Daniel 9:27 has already been fulfilled.
27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I do not believe it has happened yet. It will take place in the book of Revelation. The antichrist will make a covenant with Israel, then break it 3 1/2 years later.


Yes, I am considering what you say. But so far, I have seen nothing that is close to convincing me to switch teams.


If you have the truth, yes. What is dangerous is to be so obstinately convinced you have the truth, when you may not.


I do not believe it is. In fact, it is required to properly understand the bible.


I disagree (obviously).

hi bud
i"m on a wretched laptop with no mouse and can't do much.
i don't have my own files.

if you could see that Jesus fulfilled Daniel 9, and that 27 is speaking of HIM, not antichrist, would you reconsider the futurist view to some degree?

27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

just because this section of the text falls in the order it does in the passage doesn't mean it is NOT about Jesus.

there are two HE's in Daniel 9.

One is Jesus and one is Titus.

27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


this entire section is about Jesus.
He confirmed the Promised New Covenant with many (others rejected it).
New Covenant. the COVENANT. in His Blood.

in the middle of the 70th week He was crucified (cut off, but not for Himself). when He was sacrificed, it put an end to animal sacrifice or any other FOREVER...though the jews continued to sacrifice animals afterwards.

because of the abominations the nation of israel had been committing (The Oral Traditions of the Pharisees), the idolatry and their rejection of Him, He declared Jerusalem would be left desolte, didn't He. we know He did. it is recorded.

before He died He said BEHOLD, YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT DESOLATE.

when He talked to His disciples He told them that Titus would come and tear the entire thing down.
He told the Pharisees they had been judged, and that all the blood and guilt for all the prophets and saints would be on thier account (since they agreed with their forefathers)...and He told them that judgment would come upon them in that very generation that was alive as He spoke.

and it did come....less than 40 years later (40 years is one form of a generation, as is 70)...Titus, the roman prince brought his people and they destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD. razed it.

27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

the consummation means the ACTUAL CARRYING OUT OF THE DECREE...Titus consummated The Lord's decree of DESOLATION....that which He decreed was poured out on the DESOLATE. she was already desolate.

zone

ps: ANYBODY WITH DANIEL 9 FULFILLMENT STUFF PLEASE POST FOR SHROOM...i'm handicapped with this stoopid laptop.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Daniels prayer;

2 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the LORD through Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

4 And I prayed to the LORD my God, and made confession, and said, “O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments, 5 we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. 6 Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land. 7 O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You.

therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.

13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. 14 Therefore the LORD has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the LORD our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice. 15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!

16 “O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us. 17 Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord’s sake cause Your face to shine on Your sanctuary, which is desolate. 18 O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our desolations, and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies. 19 O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act! Do not delay for Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”

Daniels prayer was for his people (israel) who were in rebellion. It was in reguards to the punishment inflicted according to mosaic law (lev 26) Daniel was praying for God to shew mercy on his city (jerusalem) and His people (Israel)

Daniel had in mind the land. the covenant made between God and Abraham. And the punishment inflicted on the people and their city according to lev 26.

 

[zone]

I'm less disturbed by those who actually HAVE read Lindsay and LaHaye or Ryrie and Scofield, and have at least read the Word enough to "support" their incorrect view with scripture. Indoctrination with some measure of study added is better than rote affiliation by casual cultural and peer influence. A death of the letter can be resurrected by the life of the Spirit; refuting vague unsupported assent of opinion based on relational influence is virtually completely futile.

this is true.
very true.

if there are no signs of struggling for the truth, maybe there is no conviction on the matter.

what made it start coming undone for you PPS?

were you ticked? did the truth come all at once?

 

[Red33]

You spend alot of time typing out slander Red.

Slander, do you even know what it means? From a scale of 1-100, with Zone being at the 100 mark of slandering others because of their doctrine, whether they be dead or alive, I haven't even reached .001. You and Zone slander believers and what they believe all the time and don't even know it because you are so puffed up in knowledge and in your own understanding. That's right, puffed way up! AnandaHya is starting to follow those footsteps, can you hear it?

 

[zone]

Daniels prayer;

2 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the LORD through Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

4 And I prayed to the LORD my God, and made confession, and said, “O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments, 5 we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. 6 Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land. 7 O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You.

therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.

13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. 14 Therefore the LORD has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the LORD our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice. 15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!

16 “O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us. 17 Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord’s sake cause Your face to shine on Your sanctuary, which is desolate. 18 O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our desolations, and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies. 19 O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act! Do not delay for Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”

Daniels prayer was for his people (israel) who were in rebellion. It was in reguards to the punishment inflicted according to mosaic law (lev 26) Daniel was praying for God to shew mercy on his city (jerusalem) and His people (Israel)

Daniel had in mind the land. the covenant made between God and Abraham. And the punishment inflicted on the people and their city according to lev 26.

and every single thing he was told came to pass.
COMPLETELY FULFILLED.
Daniel 9 is done.

NOTHING FOR JEWS NOW EXCEPT TO BECOME CHRISTIANS....JUST LIKE THEY HAVE BEEN AND ARE.

Romans 11 isn't future...it said they could THEN when Paul wrote it receive mercy.

how? BY TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, TODAY, WHILE IT IS STILL CALLED TODAY, do not harden your hearts as they did in the day of provocation.

TODAY.

not 2000 years in the future.

BELIEVE ON THE SON, and you will live.

EXCEPT YOU BELIEVE THAT I AM, you will all die in your sins. He made it CLEAR.

 

[zone]

Slander, do you even know what it means? From a scale of 1-100, with Zone being at the 100 mark of slandering others because of their doctrine, whether they be dead or alive, I haven't even reached .001. You and Zone slander believers and what they believe all the time and don't even know it because you are so puffed up in knowledge and in your own understanding. That's right, puffed way up! AnandaHya is starting to follow those footsteps, can you hear it?

what nonsense.
DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY AND CHRISTIAN ZIONISM ARE EVIL.

that's not slander.

its truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and every single thing he was told came to pass.
COMPLETELY FULFILLED.
Daniel 9 is done.

NOTHING FOR JEWS NOW EXCEPT TO BECOME CHRISTIANS....JUST LIKE THEY HAVE BEEN AND ARE.

Romans 11 isn't future...it said they could THEN when Paul wrote it receive mercy.

how? BY TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, TODAY, WHILE IT IS STILL CALLED TODAY, do not harden your hearts as they did in the day of provocation.

TODAY.

not 2000 years in the future.

BELIEVE ON THE SON, and you will live.

EXCEPT YOU BELIEVE THAT I AM, you will all die in your sins. He made it CLEAR.

No it was not zone. Because daniels prayer was not about the church, any gentile, The salvation of any person jew or gentile, or anything other than the city of jersualem. and his people. And Gods covenant concerning that land and his people.

I am sorry. I can not agree with you. I posted what daniel prayed for. Not one thing he prayed for concerned me or any of my gentile chirstian brothers or sisters in Christ. Not 1 thing!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

For anyone in the room wondering why I am not responding to anything strangelove says. I am done with him. I am not even reading anything he posts anymore. I have no respect for the guy. so it is better that I do not even look at anything he says or does.

do not take my lack of response to anything he asks as I have given up. I have not. If anything. The stuff he posts makes me more positive that what I believe is true.

For strangelove. Have a nice life. I am sure I will see ya in heaven. But unlike you. If I am right. I will not say I told you so. If you are right. I will not bow down to you and say you were right. I will say thank God he saved us from all our sin. and saved us in spite of ourselves. For some reason you refuse to agree to disagree on non salvic issues. And refuse to even attempt to understand what I or anyone like me believes. for this reason, I bid you adeu! (spelling)

 

[Strangelove]

ps: ANYBODY WITH DANIEL 9 FULFILLMENT STUFF PLEASE POST FOR SHROOM...i'm handicapped with this stoopid laptop.

I think you've pretty much nailed it but heres a website:

LINK: In The Greatest Prophecy Ever Fulfilled

 

[Strangelove]

Slander, do you even know what it means? From a scale of 1-100, with Zone being at the 100 mark of slandering others because of their doctrine, whether they be dead or alive, I haven't even reached .001. You and Zone slander believers and what they believe all the time and don't even know it because you are so puffed up in knowledge and in your own understanding. That's right, puffed way up! AnandaHya is starting to follow those footsteps, can you hear it?

We dont spend hours typing out 4 huge paragraphs of slander Red. That was the point of what I said.

 

[Strangelove]

No it was not zone. Because daniels prayer was not about the church, any gentile, The salvation of any person jew or gentile, or anything other than the city of jersualem. and his people. And Gods covenant concerning that land and his people.

I am sorry. I can not agree with you. I posted what daniel prayed for. Not one thing he prayed for concerned me or any of my gentile chirstian brothers or sisters in Christ. Not 1 thing!

Then you have no saviour who made an end to your sins.

G'luck with that!