Bride of Christ

[LenMcM]

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST​

We have people who adamantly claim that “The Bride of Christ” is the Church.

We also have people who adamantly claim that “The Bride of Christ” is Israel.



The Bride of Christ is only mentioned as such just once in the Scriptures and this shows that both of the above are only partially correct. This reference is found in Rev. 21: 9-12.

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife."

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.

12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.



So it is clear that the New Jerusalem is “The Bride”. However; Israel verse 12 and The Church verse 14 form an integral part of the structure.



Israel was the gateway which gave the World access to and knowledge of God through The Written Word.



The Church was brought into existence by and revealed The Word in Flesh, the foundational strength of New Jerusalem. Jesus Christ the Foundation and Corner Stone from the beginning.



So, New Jerusalem (The Bride) is the Dwelling place of God, together with all the saved by Grace & Faith irrespective of race since the beginning of Creation.

 

[homwardbound]

Earth says come to me and I will tell you what to do to get, to be in with God through me, not one person is better than any others.
Really, I found many and find many fallacies in man doing it for God.

Jesus the risen Son is the new life offered us all to be new in God's Spirit and truth, thank you. God to Father and ask for the risen Son Jesus to teach you new and see to truly sincerely love all, not just those that love you back.

Proof, the First Chosen could not ever do it perfectly ever, not one. Proven in the Old Testament, not one person could ever be perfect, except those God chose as perfect, were not ever perfect of themselves ever, God chose. There are many through the (First)Old Testament that are reckoned by God as righteous and it is not of themselves that they are righteous, it is of God alone, to me at least.
Therefore they had to have a sacrificial system in place, once a year the High Priest had to go into the Temple pass through the curtain to offer prayer to get forgiven by God once a year. for the past year, year after year.
therefore Son was sent to take care of that, which (Hebrews 10) never satisfied God in what God's first Chosen could never do, be "perfect"
God from day one to me has had Mercy over sacrifices, the first Adam even before any sacrifice was ever put in place. Mercy overcomes wrath and is far better than wrath.
So see it done by Son, for us the people to be made new in God Father's Spirit and Truth to lead us the same as Father led Jesus first. hoping so for us all to go to Father personally thank you, and be transformed new in love to all, thank you

 

[GWH]

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST​

We have people who adamantly claim that “The Bride of Christ” is the Church.

We also have people who adamantly claim that “The Bride of Christ” is Israel.



The Bride of Christ is only mentioned as such just once in the Scriptures and this shows that both of the above are only partially correct. This reference is found in Rev. 21: 9-12.

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife."

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.

12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.



So it is clear that the New Jerusalem is “The Bride”. However; Israel verse 12 and The Church verse 14 form an integral part of the structure.



Israel was the gateway which gave the World access to and knowledge of God through The Written Word.



The Church was brought into existence by and revealed The Word in Flesh, the foundational strength of New Jerusalem. Jesus Christ the Foundation and Corner Stone from the beginning.



So, New Jerusalem (The Bride) is the Dwelling place of God, together with all the saved by Grace & Faith irrespective of race since the beginning of Creation.

"We have people who adamantly claim that “The Bride of Christ” is the Church.
We also have people who adamantly claim that “The Bride of Christ” is Israel."

And we have Paul teaching that the Church IS spiritual Israel.

 

[Whomsoever]

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST​

We have people who adamantly claim that “The Bride of Christ” is the Church.

We also have people who adamantly claim that “The Bride of Christ” is Israel.



The Bride of Christ is only mentioned as such just once in the Scriptures and this shows that both of the above are only partially correct. This reference is found in Rev. 21: 9-12.

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife."

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.

12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.



So it is clear that the New Jerusalem is “The Bride”. However; Israel verse 12 and The Church verse 14 form an integral part of the structure.



Israel was the gateway which gave the World access to and knowledge of God through The Written Word.



The Church was brought into existence by and revealed The Word in Flesh, the foundational strength of New Jerusalem. Jesus Christ the Foundation and Corner Stone from the beginning.



So, New Jerusalem (The Bride) is the Dwelling place of God, together with all the saved by Grace & Faith irrespective of race since the beginning of Creation.

When I read this, it immediately brought me to this place in
Ephesians 2

11 Therefore remember that formerly you the Gentiles in the flesh the ones being call the uncircumcision by that being called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands
12 that you were, at the time that, separate from Christ alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of the promise, hope not having, and without God in the world
13 Now however in Christ Jesus you, the ones once being far off, have become near by the blood of Christ
14 He Himself for is the peace of us having made both one and the barrier of the fence having broken down the hostility
15 in the flesh of Him the law of commandments in ordinances having annulled so that the two He might create in Himself into one new man making peace
16 and He might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross having slain the hostility by it

 

[wattie]

In 1 Corinthians, we have the body of Christ being described.

It is in terms of a unified entity, where one member can suffer with another. The hand, foot etc..are together.

So guess what?

Paul writes to the assembly at Corinth.. 'YOU are the body of Christ'

That means...the body of Christ is an assembly.

All redeemed is not the context of 1 Corinthians 12. The assembly at Corinth is.

Each assembly in the NT can be called a body of Christ.

Multiple bodies? YES! It is the one Jesus with many assemblies He owns.

Ephesians 4 'there is one body..'...

Yes! That's figurative for one one kind of assembly Jesus would consider His.

 

[glf]

Rom 11: 24:
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Epn 2: 12-22:
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Eph 3:6:
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 

[Pilgrimshope]

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST​

We have people who adamantly claim that “The Bride of Christ” is the Church.

We also have people who adamantly claim that “The Bride of Christ” is Israel.



The Bride of Christ is only mentioned as such just once in the Scriptures and this shows that both of the above are only partially correct. This reference is found in Rev. 21: 9-12.

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife."

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.

12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.



So it is clear that the New Jerusalem is “The Bride”. However; Israel verse 12 and The Church verse 14 form an integral part of the structure.



Israel was the gateway which gave the World access to and knowledge of God through The Written Word.



The Church was brought into existence by and revealed The Word in Flesh, the foundational strength of New Jerusalem. Jesus Christ the Foundation and Corner Stone from the beginning.



So, New Jerusalem (The Bride) is the Dwelling place of God, together with all the saved by Grace & Faith irrespective of race since the beginning of Creation.

There’s a whole prophetic theme of the lords bride and his wedding

 

[LenMcM]

"We have people who adamantly claim that “The Bride of Christ” is the Church.
We also have people who adamantly claim that “The Bride of Christ” is Israel."

And we have Paul teaching that the Church IS spiritual Israel.

I have never been able to find in Paul's writings or any other scriptures where it states that the Church is Spiritual Israel. - Can you please supply Scripture quotes (in context). Thank you.

 

[GWH]

I have never been able to find in Paul's writings or any other scriptures where it states that the Church is Spiritual Israel. - Can you please supply Scripture quotes (in context). Thank you.

Okay,

Per Jesus

MT 7:21: Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

MT 8:11: I say to you that many will come from the east and the west and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

MT 10:32: Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven, but whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

MT 11:6&13-14: Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me… For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, and if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

MT 13:14-15: This people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and I would heal them.

MT 21:43: I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

MT 23:37: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you! How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

MT 28:18-19a: All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations…

JN 6:40: My Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

JN 8:42, 44&56: If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own, but he sent me… You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him… Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.

JN 10:16: I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

JN 12:48a & 49b: There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words… for the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

JN 16:1-2: All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. They will put you out of the synagogue. In fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.

Per Paul

RM 1:1-5: Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus… Through him we received apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. (All passages may be condensed.)

RM 2:1-11, 23-29: God will give to each person according to what he has done… There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, first for the Jew, then for the Gentile, but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good, first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

RM 2:23-29: You (Jews) who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? As it is written, “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”… A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart.

RM 3:1-9: What advantage then is there in being a Jew?… First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God… What shall we conclude then? Are we (Jews) any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.

RM 3:20-30: Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his (God’s) sight by observing the law; rather through the law we become conscious of sin… Where then is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

RM 4:16-18: Therefore the promise (salvation) comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all of Abraham’s offspring–not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations.”

RM 9:1-16: I speak the truth in Christ… I could wish myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel… From them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. It is not as though God’s word had failed, for not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children… It is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

RM 9:23-24 & 30-33: What if he (God) did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory–even us whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?… What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone”. As it is written, “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, but the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

RM 10:1&12-13: Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved… For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile–the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

RM 11:1&7-8: …Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham… What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened.

RM 11:11-32: Because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! I am talking to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles. I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them… You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I may be grafted in.” Granted, but they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant… Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in again… Israel has experienced hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved… For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

RM 15:15-16: God gave me (grace) to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

I can post the rest by Paul next time if you want, but I ran too long to include more in this post.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I have never been able to find in Paul's writings or any other scriptures where it states that the Church is Spiritual Israel. - Can you please supply Scripture quotes (in context). Thank you.

The olive tree is spiritual Israel

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Romans 11:17​

​

 

[Aaron56]

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST​

We have people who adamantly claim that “The Bride of Christ” is the Church.

We also have people who adamantly claim that “The Bride of Christ” is Israel.



The Bride of Christ is only mentioned as such just once in the Scriptures and this shows that both of the above are only partially correct. This reference is found in Rev. 21: 9-12.

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife."

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.

12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.



So it is clear that the New Jerusalem is “The Bride”. However; Israel verse 12 and The Church verse 14 form an integral part of the structure.



Israel was the gateway which gave the World access to and knowledge of God through The Written Word.



The Church was brought into existence by and revealed The Word in Flesh, the foundational strength of New Jerusalem. Jesus Christ the Foundation and Corner Stone from the beginning.



So, New Jerusalem (The Bride) is the Dwelling place of God, together with all the saved by Grace & Faith irrespective of race since the beginning of Creation.

There are other places like that in Revelation..

In one place we read “behold, the lion of the tribe of Judah…”
next verse
”And I looked… and behold, a lamb as though it had been slain…”

So, John hears “lion” but sees “a lamb”.

So, we read “I will show you the bride…”
But John looks and sees a city.

Because God does not dwell in places made by hands, this is not a physical city but a spiritual one wherein the faithful of God are it’s structure.

Peter said it this way “..you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house…”

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There are other places like that in Revelation..

In one place we read “behold, the lion of the tribe of Judah…”
next verse
”And I looked… and behold, a lamb as though it had been slain…”

So, John hears “lion” but sees “a lamb”.

So, we read “I will show you the bride…”
But John looks and sees a city.

Because God does not dwell in places made by hands, this is not a physical city but a spiritual one wherein the faithful of God are it’s structure.

Peter said it this way “..you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house…”

Two realms of creation brother

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: ( Gods realm )

But the earth hath he given to the children of men.”( our realm )
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭115:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“The LORD is in his holy temple, The LORD's throne is in heaven:

His eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We see massive amounts of evidence for this situation

“And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:1, 5, 7‬ ‭

“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so we see this duality of creation from the very beginning of one creation but two distinct realms. And the interactions really start to pop out especially in the ot scenes of God looking from heaven upon mankind and sending servants and intervening he’s watching the earth and sees all

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.

I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:16‬ ‭

“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s a much better place he has prepared for those who love him this earth is a veiled glimpse

 

[Aaron56]

Two realms of creation brother

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: ( Gods realm )

But the earth hath he given to the children of men.”( our realm )
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭115:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“The LORD is in his holy temple, The LORD's throne is in heaven:

His eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We see massive amounts of evidence for this situation

“And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:1, 5, 7‬ ‭

“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so we see this duality of creation from the very beginning of one creation but two distinct realms. And the interactions really start to pop out especially in the ot scenes of God looking from heaven upon mankind and sending servants and intervening he’s watching the earth and sees all

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.

I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:16‬ ‭

“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s a much better place he has prepared for those who love him this earth is a veiled glimpse

Yeah, I know what it says. I don’t believe it means a physical city.
Like regarding the “mansions” passage that’s always read at funerals:

John 14:1-5 is often read a funerals. I believe this practice misses the meaning of the scripture.

John 14:2-6
In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The word for "mansions" is monē. It's the same word used in this verse when Jesus explains that the Father and the Son will live with believers:

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

So, the question is: if you are a believer, did you add onto your physical house to make room for the Father and the Son?

No, of course not. We know that Jesus is using figurative language. However, the language bears much weight!

Jesus is factually reporting that the Father and the Son will, by their own volition, abide with those who love them. This hints at the depth of security in the covenant: it is assured not by man's strength (as was the Law) but by the will of the Father and Son. (that's another thread entirely)

Now let's look at "place".

Place is the word topos. The same word is used here, when the Jews appeal to the Pharisees to help with the threat that Jesus was to their nation and religion:

John 11:48
“If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”

If we read "place" as a physical dwelling, we could conclude that the Jews were afraid to be evicted from their homes because of Jesus.

We know that's not what they meant.

They were afraid to lose their positions of influence and their places of power.

Let's look at one final area.

Jesus said "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself". Is there anywhere in scripture where this is so? If He's not talking about receiving you in heaven when you die but, rather, about receiving you to Himself on this side of life, we should be able to find that in the scriptures, right?

Of course we can.

Jesus, the man, was only one man. The laws of physics prevented another man from being in the same place as was Jesus. But, when He died (and this is what He was alluding to) He did not rise up as Jesus, another man. He rose up as the Christ. When we plant a seed we do not harvest only a seed. No. An entire plant full of seeds grows from the one that is planted.

So what is the corollary between Jesus dying, being resurrected, and being able to receive all unto Himself?

The many-membered Christ! Christ is the spiritual man in which all men, who are redeemed, are fit and knitted together.

Paul explains this mystery...

1 Corinthians 12:12
For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

Paul also used the same word for "receive" (paralambanō ) in Colossians 2:6-10

As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Notice how man "in Hims" are used in that small section. This is the reality of being received unto Christ: our place is indeed "in Him".

We are the structure, engineered by the Holy Spirit, through which the corporate Christ is seen in the earth.

Furthermore, in Christ, we are not another; we are not a foreign body. We are actually His flesh and blood. That is why He can share His glory with us:

And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Let's look at the first set of verses again.

In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

Jesus is explaining how He will administrate next part of the New Covenant.

This is a paraphrase using the points from above:

My Father's family is vast! I tell you these things because I tell you my Father's business. By my passing and resurrection you may be included in the house of My Father; Our Father. I will arise as the Christ and include you in myself. When I walked the earth My Father secured a place for Me. He was always with Me. When I return and receive you to Myself, you will walk the earth with the same grace I was given. I will always be with you. Do not be troubled in your heart.

"I will never leave you or forsake you." -Christ Jesus

 

[Magenta]

Yeah, I know what it says. I don’t believe it means a physical city.
Like regarding the “mansions” passage that’s always read at funerals:

John 14:1-5 is often read a funerals. I believe this practice misses the meaning of the scripture.

John 14:2-6
In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The word for "mansions" is monē. It's the same word used in this verse when Jesus explains that the Father and the Son will live with believers:

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

So, the question is: if you are a believer, did you add onto your physical house to make room for the Father and the Son?

No, of course not. We know that Jesus is using figurative language. However, the language bears much weight!

Jesus is factually reporting that the Father and the Son will, by their own volition, abide with those who love them. This hints at the depth of security in the covenant: it is assured not by man's strength (as was the Law) but by the will of the Father and Son. (that's another thread entirely)

Now let's look at "place".

Place is the word topos. The same word is used here, when the Jews appeal to the Pharisees to help with the threat that Jesus was to their nation and religion:

John 11:48
“If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”

If we read "place" as a physical dwelling, we could conclude that the Jews were afraid to be evicted from their homes because of Jesus.

We know that's not what they meant.

They were afraid to lose their positions of influence and their places of power.

Let's look at one final area.

Jesus said "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself". Is there anywhere in scripture where this is so? If He's not talking about receiving you in heaven when you die but, rather, about receiving you to Himself on this side of life, we should be able to find that in the scriptures, right?

Of course we can.

Jesus, the man, was only one man. The laws of physics prevented another man from being in the same place as was Jesus. But, when He died (and this is what He was alluding to) He did not rise up as Jesus, another man. He rose up as the Christ. When we plant a seed we do not harvest only a seed. No. An entire plant full of seeds grows from the one that is planted.

So what is the corollary between Jesus dying, being resurrected, and being able to receive all unto Himself?

The many-membered Christ! Christ is the spiritual man in which all men, who are redeemed, are fit and knitted together.

Paul explains this mystery...

1 Corinthians 12:12
For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

Paul also used the same word for "receive" (paralambanō ) in Colossians 2:6-10

As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Notice how man "in Hims" are used in that small section. This is the reality of being received unto Christ: our place is indeed "in Him".

We are the structure, engineered by the Holy Spirit, through which the corporate Christ is seen in the earth.

Furthermore, in Christ, we are not another; we are not a foreign body. We are actually His flesh and blood. That is why He can share His glory with us:

And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Let's look at the first set of verses again.

In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

Jesus is explaining how He will administrate next part of the New Covenant.

This is a paraphrase using the points from above:

My Father's family is vast! I tell you these things because I tell you my Father's business. By my passing and resurrection you may be included in the house of My Father; Our Father. I will arise as the Christ and include you in myself. When I walked the earth My Father secured a place for Me. He was always with Me. When I return and receive you to Myself, you will walk the earth with the same grace I was given. I will always be with you. Do not be troubled in your heart.

"I will never leave you or forsake you." -Christ Jesus

John 14:1-3 Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

 

[Cameron143]

Yeah, I know what it says. I don’t believe it means a physical city.
Like regarding the “mansions” passage that’s always read at funerals:

John 14:1-5 is often read a funerals. I believe this practice misses the meaning of the scripture.

John 14:2-6
In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The word for "mansions" is monē. It's the same word used in this verse when Jesus explains that the Father and the Son will live with believers:

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

So, the question is: if you are a believer, did you add onto your physical house to make room for the Father and the Son?

No, of course not. We know that Jesus is using figurative language. However, the language bears much weight!

Jesus is factually reporting that the Father and the Son will, by their own volition, abide with those who love them. This hints at the depth of security in the covenant: it is assured not by man's strength (as was the Law) but by the will of the Father and Son. (that's another thread entirely)

Now let's look at "place".

Place is the word topos. The same word is used here, when the Jews appeal to the Pharisees to help with the threat that Jesus was to their nation and religion:

John 11:48
“If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”

If we read "place" as a physical dwelling, we could conclude that the Jews were afraid to be evicted from their homes because of Jesus.

We know that's not what they meant.

They were afraid to lose their positions of influence and their places of power.

Let's look at one final area.

Jesus said "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself". Is there anywhere in scripture where this is so? If He's not talking about receiving you in heaven when you die but, rather, about receiving you to Himself on this side of life, we should be able to find that in the scriptures, right?

Of course we can.

Jesus, the man, was only one man. The laws of physics prevented another man from being in the same place as was Jesus. But, when He died (and this is what He was alluding to) He did not rise up as Jesus, another man. He rose up as the Christ. When we plant a seed we do not harvest only a seed. No. An entire plant full of seeds grows from the one that is planted.

So what is the corollary between Jesus dying, being resurrected, and being able to receive all unto Himself?

The many-membered Christ! Christ is the spiritual man in which all men, who are redeemed, are fit and knitted together.

Paul explains this mystery...

1 Corinthians 12:12
For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

Paul also used the same word for "receive" (paralambanō ) in Colossians 2:6-10

As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Notice how man "in Hims" are used in that small section. This is the reality of being received unto Christ: our place is indeed "in Him".

We are the structure, engineered by the Holy Spirit, through which the corporate Christ is seen in the earth.

Furthermore, in Christ, we are not another; we are not a foreign body. We are actually His flesh and blood. That is why He can share His glory with us:

And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Let's look at the first set of verses again.

In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

Jesus is explaining how He will administrate next part of the New Covenant.

This is a paraphrase using the points from above:

My Father's family is vast! I tell you these things because I tell you my Father's business. By my passing and resurrection you may be included in the house of My Father; Our Father. I will arise as the Christ and include you in myself. When I walked the earth My Father secured a place for Me. He was always with Me. When I return and receive you to Myself, you will walk the earth with the same grace I was given. I will always be with you. Do not be troubled in your heart.

"I will never leave you or forsake you." -Christ Jesus

Excellent stuff.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yeah, I know what it says. I don’t believe it means a physical city.
Like regarding the “mansions” passage that’s always read at funerals:

John 14:1-5 is often read a funerals. I believe this practice misses the meaning of the scripture.

John 14:2-6
In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The word for "mansions" is monē. It's the same word used in this verse when Jesus explains that the Father and the Son will live with believers:

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

So, the question is: if you are a believer, did you add onto your physical house to make room for the Father and the Son?

No, of course not. We know that Jesus is using figurative language. However, the language bears much weight!

Jesus is factually reporting that the Father and the Son will, by their own volition, abide with those who love them. This hints at the depth of security in the covenant: it is assured not by man's strength (as was the Law) but by the will of the Father and Son. (that's another thread entirely)

Now let's look at "place".

Place is the word topos. The same word is used here, when the Jews appeal to the Pharisees to help with the threat that Jesus was to their nation and religion:

John 11:48
“If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”

If we read "place" as a physical dwelling, we could conclude that the Jews were afraid to be evicted from their homes because of Jesus.

We know that's not what they meant.

They were afraid to lose their positions of influence and their places of power.

Let's look at one final area.

Jesus said "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself". Is there anywhere in scripture where this is so? If He's not talking about receiving you in heaven when you die but, rather, about receiving you to Himself on this side of life, we should be able to find that in the scriptures, right?

Of course we can.

Jesus, the man, was only one man. The laws of physics prevented another man from being in the same place as was Jesus. But, when He died (and this is what He was alluding to) He did not rise up as Jesus, another man. He rose up as the Christ. When we plant a seed we do not harvest only a seed. No. An entire plant full of seeds grows from the one that is planted.

So what is the corollary between Jesus dying, being resurrected, and being able to receive all unto Himself?

The many-membered Christ! Christ is the spiritual man in which all men, who are redeemed, are fit and knitted together.

Paul explains this mystery...

1 Corinthians 12:12
For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

Paul also used the same word for "receive" (paralambanō ) in Colossians 2:6-10

As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Notice how man "in Hims" are used in that small section. This is the reality of being received unto Christ: our place is indeed "in Him".

We are the structure, engineered by the Holy Spirit, through which the corporate Christ is seen in the earth.

Furthermore, in Christ, we are not another; we are not a foreign body. We are actually His flesh and blood. That is why He can share His glory with us:

And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Let's look at the first set of verses again.

In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

Jesus is explaining how He will administrate next part of the New Covenant.

This is a paraphrase using the points from above:

My Father's family is vast! I tell you these things because I tell you my Father's business. By my passing and resurrection you may be included in the house of My Father; Our Father. I will arise as the Christ and include you in myself. When I walked the earth My Father secured a place for Me. He was always with Me. When I return and receive you to Myself, you will walk the earth with the same grace I was given. I will always be with you. Do not be troubled in your heart.

"I will never leave you or forsake you." -Christ Jesus

Yeah he does say he went to prepare a place and City for us . And Jesus did leave this earth and did promise to return to this earth at the end.

Where do you reckon we’re gonna spend eternity ? Here ?

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

( or here ?)

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 10-13‬ ‭

But heaven is not a “physical “ place I agree it tells us that the spirits of just men dwell with him in sion the heavenly Jerusalem.

We might be thinking of the term “ spirit “ differently I believe there’s a spiritual world that’s actually more tangible than this one we see and touch . That’s higher than us.

Where was God coming down from if it’s not his place ?

“And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:5, 7‬ ‭

if he’s going from one place to another , heaven is actually a place but our eyes aren’t open to it right yet we have to leave the veil of our flesh first to see and touch it

Or for instance

“But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:29‬ ‭

Drinking the fruit of the vine in the kingdom ? I believe the issue is we can’t behold reality yet but when we pass th rough the veil we will see him as he is

 

[LenMcM]

The olive tree is spiritual Israel

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Romans 11:17​

​

Thank you.



Romans 11. is indeed the closest Scriptures to saying that the Olive Tree represents Israel. However this is not what it says. Tradition makes that statement, not the Bible.



Verse 17 makes it clear that it is faithful Israeli believers who are the BRANCHES not the Tree. In fact this tree would also include a great number that are not of Israel such as Abraham and all the faithful believers that were before him. The Branches are partakers of the “root and fatness” of the Tree. The root of the tree is it’s lifeblood and represents God. So it is more correct to say that The Tree represents God (not Israel) and it’s branches are all who are saved by Faith, Grace and Righteousness.

Verses 18-24 shows that those originally in the Tree should they loose their faith will be broken off and burned, and the new additions “Faithful Christians” if they also depart from the Faith will also be broken off and burned. Verses 23 and 24 show some hope for those who may again repent in time (If they have time).

 

[LenMcM]

Okay,

Per Jesus

MT 7:21: Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

MT 8:11: I say to you that many will come from the east and the west and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

MT 10:32: Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven, but whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

MT 11:6&13-14: Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me… For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, and if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

MT 13:14-15: This people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and I would heal them.

MT 21:43: I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

MT 23:37: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you! How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

MT 28:18-19a: All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations…

JN 6:40: My Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

JN 8:42, 44&56: If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own, but he sent me… You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him… Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.

JN 10:16: I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

JN 12:48a & 49b: There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words… for the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

JN 16:1-2: All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. They will put you out of the synagogue. In fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.

Per Paul

RM 1:1-5: Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus… Through him we received apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. (All passages may be condensed.)

RM 2:1-11, 23-29: God will give to each person according to what he has done… There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, first for the Jew, then for the Gentile, but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good, first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

RM 2:23-29: You (Jews) who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? As it is written, “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”… A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart.

RM 3:1-9: What advantage then is there in being a Jew?… First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God… What shall we conclude then? Are we (Jews) any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.

RM 3:20-30: Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his (God’s) sight by observing the law; rather through the law we become conscious of sin… Where then is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

RM 4:16-18: Therefore the promise (salvation) comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all of Abraham’s offspring–not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations.”

RM 9:1-16: I speak the truth in Christ… I could wish myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel… From them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. It is not as though God’s word had failed, for not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children… It is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

RM 9:23-24 & 30-33: What if he (God) did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory–even us whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?… What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone”. As it is written, “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, but the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

RM 10:1&12-13: Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved… For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile–the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

RM 11:1&7-8: …Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham… What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened.

RM 11:11-32: Because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! I am talking to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles. I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them… You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I may be grafted in.” Granted, but they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant… Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in again… Israel has experienced hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved… For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

RM 15:15-16: God gave me (grace) to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

I can post the rest by Paul next time if you want, but I ran too long to include more in this post.

Thank you for your reply.
I am in full agreement with all the above texts, but none state that the Tree is Israel. Romans 11 clearly shows that Israel and all faithful believers before Jacob comprise the BRANCHES not the Tree. The branches are nourished by the ROOT Which represents God. So it would be more correct to say that the Tree represents God. The branches represent the faithful who can all be broken off and burned should they depart from their faith be they Jew or Gentile.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Thank you.



Romans 11. is indeed the closest Scriptures to saying that the Olive Tree represents Israel. However this is not what it says. Tradition makes that statement, not the Bible.
Verse 17 makes it clear that it is faithful Israeli believers who are the BRANCHES not the Tree. In fact this tree would also include a great number that are not of Israel such as Abraham and all the faithful believers that were before him. The Branches are partakers of the “root and fatness” of the Tree. The root of the tree is it’s lifeblood and represents God. So it is more correct to say that The Tree represents God (not Israel) and it’s branches are all who are saved by Faith, Grace and Righteousness.
Verses 18-24 shows that those originally in the Tree should they loose their faith will be broken off and burned, and the new additions “Faithful Christians” if they also depart from the Faith will also be broken off and burned. Verses 23 and 24 show some hope for those who may again repent in time (If they have time).

A tree is it's trunk, branches, leaves and roots, so the whole tree can't be God because the branches are believers. They are supported by the root, so the root is Christ, and the whole tree is Israel after the spirit, not the flesh. Nothing else makes sense

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Romans 11:18​

 

[GWH]

Thank you for your reply.
I am in full agreement with all the above texts, but none state that the Tree is Israel. Romans 11 clearly shows that Israel and all faithful believers before Jacob comprise the BRANCHES not the Tree. The branches are nourished by the ROOT Which represents God. So it would be more correct to say that the Tree represents God. The branches represent the faithful who can all be broken off and burned should they depart from their faith be they Jew or Gentile.

True, but sometimes/often Scripture is not systematic, meaning that it does not teach everything about a topic in one place, so we must use our God-given logical ability to connect dots. Of course, w'all cannot do that infallibly, so that is where CC comes in.