Understanding God’s election

[Genez]

Christ taught certain laws regarding how we are to conduct ourselves as Christians in this world. However, those are not the laws that levy eternal condemnation. Eternal condemnation is determined based on the following:

[Jhn 3:19-21 KJV]
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Christ is that light. Those not elected/saved, hate the light (Christ), because natural man loves and trusts only in his own deeds for salvation, thus rejecting God's mercy and grace through Christ. Therefore, the sin that brings eternal condemnation, is the hatred of Jesus Christ alone as the Savior.

Jesus taught Jews how Jews should have been living under the Law.
They called him "Rabbi."
The Gospels are so beautiful in what it teaches, we too easily miss that what Jesus taught was to Israel,
and about how the Jews should have been living at that time!

It was the Apostle Paul that later on God raised up to teach all believers how all of God's children should walk spiritually.

Legalism appeals to the thick headed.

 

[cv5]

Calvinism presents a *forced* gift.

Calvinites not only shorten Gods arm.........they they amputate it as totally useless and unnecessary.

 

[Rufus]

Rufus?

Please let the Holy Spirit take over and guide you into all truth?

Put down your club.

Why? Does you head hurt? If so, why did you put your hat rack in the path of my "club"?

 

[Rufus]

Very interesting....

I'm going to have to chew on that one for a while.

........

If you're into small morsels like toes, beware of the fungus.

 

[Rufus]

My reply affirms that God's love is eternal and universal as revealed in the NT, whereas your post views God as hateful immutably except for a few.

Christians harmonize the NT view with the OT Scripture you cited by understanding that God hates sin but loves sinners, a truth not revealed to OT writers, which set up Christ to be crucified by haters. You DO claim to be a Christian?

Oh...I see. So the Holy Spirit who inspired all the OT prophets lied outright to them! Also, you're dead wrong (as usual!) that God didn't reveal to his OT prophets that he also hated all sin.

You non-reformed folks have absolutely no qualms about blaspheming God in order to protect and advance your lies. And you justify the grave implications to what you just wrote by claiming you can harmonize the OT lies by appealing to NT truth. Don't you know that God hated Esau (Rom 9:13)?

My post affirms that God eternally loves sinners who he in eternity predestined in Christ, whereas he cannot love sinful thoughts, words or deeds -- or the the one whose wicked heart defiles him and dishonors God since it is the wellspring of all manner of evil. I'm very thankful that God cannot love sin or the unrepentant sinner! It gives me great comfort that God will deal justly with both sinner and saint alike and eventually eradicate all sin from this universe.

 

[Inquisitor]

And one more thing while I think of it. Here's a truth you can stuff in your hash pipe and puff on until the cows come home: Roman's 3 is the universal, divinely inspired indictment against all mankind (unbelieving Jews and Gentiles).

I disagree strongly with your literal interpretation of Romans 3.

Here are some lines from Romans 3.

Then what advantage does the Jew have? (Romans 3:1)

What is the benefit of circumcision? (Romans 3:1)

What then? Are we better than they? (Romans 3:9)

Who is Paul talking to here, "Are we better than they?"

Is Paul addressing the Jews or the Gentiles in Romans 3:9?

Paul is talking to the Jews in Rome in Romans 3:9 and that is obvious.

Not difficult to see is it.

Where then is boasting? (Romans 3:27)

Well, the Gentiles are not boasting are they, because they know nothing about God.
They don't even have a New Testament to read. The Gentiles are as stupid as stupid can be.
Only the Jews are judging the feral, repulsive, lawless Gentiles.

The Jews are the chosen people and they are the one's boasting and judging.
Why are they judging? Because they know about God and they are the covenant people.

Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
(Romans 3:31)

Why would a Gentile care about the law because they don't know the law nor were
they under the law. Why would Paul be talking to Gentiles about the law?

Paul is talking to the Jews who were born under the law. The Jews spent their lives obeying
the law. Paul is talking directly to the Jews in Rome and the Jews are the sworn enemies of
Jesus Christ. Paul knows how dangerous the Jews are to those ignorant Gentiles. Paul
knows the Jews will put those Gentiles under the law, in a mere blink of the eye.

Knowing the context of the letter to the Romans allows us to turn. A very difficult
letter to understand into a simple letter, Paul is addressing the Jews directly in Rome 3.
Paul is explaining the ramifications of faith to the legalist, works driven, Jewish mindset.

So how do we read Romans 8:29 in context?

Do we need to throw Romans 7,9,10,11 in the bin because it's just about the Jews.

 

[Rufus]

I disagree strongly with your literal interpretation of Romans 3.

Here are some lines from Romans 3.

Then what advantage does the Jew have? (Romans 3:1)

What is the benefit of circumcision? (Romans 3:1)

What then? Are we better than they? (Romans 3:9)

Who is Paul talking to here, "Are we better than they?"

Is Paul addressing the Jews or the Gentiles in Romans 3:9?

Paul is talking to the Jews in Rome in Romans 3:9 and that is obvious.

Not difficult to see is it.

Where then is boasting? (Romans 3:27)

Well, the Gentiles are not boasting are they, because they know nothing about God.
They don't even have a New Testament to read. The Gentiles are as stupid as stupid can be.
Only the Jews are judging the feral, repulsive, lawless Gentiles.

The Jews are the chosen people and they are the one's boasting and judging.
Why are they judging? Because they know about God and they are the covenant people.

Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
(Romans 3:31)

Why would a Gentile care about the law because they don't know the law nor were
they under the law. Why would Paul be talking to Gentiles about the law?

Paul is talking to the Jews who were born under the law. The Jews spent their lives obeying
the law. Paul is talking directly to the Jews in Rome and the Jews are the sworn enemies of
Jesus Christ. Paul knows how dangerous the Jews are to those ignorant Gentiles. Paul
knows the Jews will put those Gentiles under the law, in a mere blink of the eye.

Knowing the context of the letter to the Romans allows us to turn. A very difficult
letter to understand into a simple letter, Paul is addressing the Jews directly in Rome 3.
Paul is explaining the ramifications of faith to the legalist, works driven, Jewish mindset.

So how do we read Romans 8:29 in context?

Do we need to throw Romans 7,9,10,11 in the bin because it's just about the Jews.

Paul is talking to both Jewish and Gentile believers. Did you miss the cite I gave earlier in Rom 11 wherein he addresses the Gentile believers. Also, you have conveniently overlooked this passage in chapter 1:

Rom 1:8-13
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. 9 God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10 in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God's will the way may be opened for me to come to you.

11 I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong— 12 that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith. 13 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I planned many times to come to you (but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other Gentiles.
NIV

By the way, the operative phrase in v.13 = THE OTHER GENTILES! But I suppose you're going to tell me that you don't take this passage literally either? If Paul was writing to only Jews or even primarily to Jewish believers, why in the world would he speak about "other Gentiles"? Or wait...maybe Paul only wrote chapter 1 to the Gentiles? Is that what you're going to tell me next?

Lastly, you might want to check out Act2 wherein Luke recorded that Paul preached to the Jews and Gentiles when he arrived in Rome -- all of which is consistent with Romans 1. There were already Jewish and Gentile believers in Rome long before Paul arrived there.

You non-reformed folks are pretty clueless when it comes to rightly exegeting and interpreting scripture. You will not stop at anything to support all your presuppositional falsehoods.

 

[HeIsHere]

Our spirit isn’t dead our flesh is corrupt

This absolutely crucial to understand, our flesh is corrupted and out spirit is disconnected from God (dead) until we are born again at which point the fellowship is restored.

We arent born condemned we are condemned by sin.

Also this is how I see it as well. Calvinists insist that a from the moment of conception a person is condemned and a sinner.

 

[HeIsHere]

Your statements are contradictory.

You noticed it too!!

 

[HeIsHere]

Since I've been unable to get an answer from anyone else, perhaps you can tell me how Rahab knew that God had given the land to the children of Israel.

Perhaps you can tell me how this connects at all to have people are saved?

 

[rogerg]

Also this is how I see it as well. Calvinists insist that a from the moment of conception a person is condemned and a sinner.

[Psa 51:5 KJV]
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

[Psa 58:2-4 KJV]
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison [is] like the poison of a serpent: [they are] like the deaf adder [that] stoppeth her ear;

 

[cv5]

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,

And not be written with the righteous.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭69:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

notice they have to be in the book first in order to be blotted out because of the sins they commited ?

the gospel offered this

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭

We arent born condemned we are condemned by sin.

Supposedly Reformed Calvinites love condemning people before they were ever born.
They dig it so much the can't stop proclaiming it.

Very good thoughts there thank you.

 

[Rufus]

Pilgrimshope said:


We arent born condemned we are condemned by sin.

Really? Have chapter and verse for that vacuous claim? Everyone of us came into this world as objects of wrath BY NATURE (Eph 2:3)! And in addition to that, it is also written:

Rom 5:18
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men,
NIV

And,

Rom 5:19
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
NIV

Methinks you should be spending a lot more personal time in the Word and far less of it here -- for your own spiritual welfare.

 

[rogerg]

Supposedly Reformed Calvinites love condemning people before they were ever born.
They dig it so much the can't stop proclaiming it.

Very good thoughts there thank you.

The Bible gives the condemnation, the Reformed just point it out. Nothing wrong with that, is there?
Or should we ignore it?

 

[cv5]

[Psa 51:5 KJV]
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

[Psa 58:2-4 KJV]
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison [is] like the poison of a serpent: [they are] like the deaf adder [that] stoppeth her ear;

Was it you that said that you were created sinless in Adam before you were ever born?
Actually I think it was @Rufus

Evidently this only applies to the extra special chosenites, the only ones that God really loves.
Everyone else is condemned before they were ever born.

Whoever it was, such a blasphemous statement is par for the course for your ilk.

If you really want me to find the post I will do it.

 

[Rufus]

Supposedly Reformed Calvinites love condemning people before they were ever born.
They dig it so much the can't stop proclaiming it.

Very good thoughts there thank you.

Only for those whose purpose in life is to misinterpret scripture by not considering context. Pilgrim guy quoted Ex 32 totally out of its context. The "book of the living" and the" book of life" are not synonymous phrases.

 

[rogerg]

Was it you that said that you were created sinless in Adam before you were ever born?
Actually I think it was @Rufus

Evidently this only applies to the extra special chosenites, the only ones that God really loves.
Everyone else is condemned before they were ever born.

Whoever it was, such a blasphemous statement is par for the course for your ilk.

If you really want me to find the post I will do it.

Are we supposed to be afraid of you???

 

[Cameron143]

Perhaps you can tell me how this connects at all to have people are saved?

Post #2843.

 

[Rufus]

Was it you that said that you were created sinless in Adam before you were ever born?
Actually I think it was @Rufus

Evidently this only applies to the extra special chosenites, the only ones that God really loves.
Everyone else is condemned before they were ever born.

Whoever it was, such a blasphemous statement is par for the course for your ilk.

If you really want me to find the post I will do it.

Wasn't me who said I was created sinless. I agree totally with scripture with respect to my guilt at BIRTH! So, take you inane straw man somewhere else.

 

[cv5]

Your statements are contradictory.

"I heard because God raised me from the dead"

If you were predestined and always had the Holy Spirit, then you were never dead.

God did not at some time give you that ability, you always had that ability.

"I heard because God raised me from the dead to give me that ability"

The doctrinal fact is that we receive the Holy Spirit after we believe.

The reception of the seal (the Holy Spirit) means we are saved.

"Only the living can hear! The dead cannot"

I can assure you that both the living and the dead have very poor hearing.

The apostles in the gospels struggled with everything the Lord said.

I'm thinking more along the lines of delusionally narcissistic.