Understanding God’s election
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Yes the message and the doctrine of salvation is the same.
All good verses which once again very clearly state the word "believe."
Belief in something or someone is a personal act based on the reliability, trustworthiness of the evidence.
I noticed how clearly it states Paul taught them.
How can something so clear get so twisted.
All good verses which once again very clearly state the word "believe."
Belief in something or someone is a personal act based on the reliability, trustworthiness of the evidence.
I noticed how clearly it states Paul taught them.
How can something so clear get so twisted.
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Why do you twist Paul's message so badly??? There are none righteous, no not one, according
to Paul and also elsewhere in Scripture, the message is clear but you say, man is not that bad.
Paul says he was incapable of doing good because he was a slave to the law of sin, but you say man is free.
Jesus also said those who sin are a slave to sin but you blabber on about free will any ways.
According to Scripture the natural man is evil, a lover of darkness, cannot come to God on his own, does not
seek God, a slave to sin, cannot understand or receive spiritual things, is hostile to God and so much more...
to Paul and also elsewhere in Scripture, the message is clear but you say, man is not that bad.
Paul says he was incapable of doing good because he was a slave to the law of sin, but you say man is free.
Jesus also said those who sin are a slave to sin but you blabber on about free will any ways.
According to Scripture the natural man is evil, a lover of darkness, cannot come to God on his own, does not
seek God, a slave to sin, cannot understand or receive spiritual things, is hostile to God and so much more...
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they haven’t heard the gospel before they are born lol how can they believe or disbelieve it ?
they haven’t believed or disbelieved the gospel until they hear it that’s the entire purpose of it being preached for salvation to all creatures of the world
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. ( this comes before )
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( this )
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”( or this )
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
It’s impossible to disbelieve something you’ve never heard about or believe it before you hear it your simply unaware and haven’t had the opportunity to believe or disbelieve
they haven’t believed or disbelieved the gospel until they hear it that’s the entire purpose of it being preached for salvation to all creatures of the world
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. ( this comes before )
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( this )
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”( or this )
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
It’s impossible to disbelieve something you’ve never heard about or believe it before you hear it your simply unaware and haven’t had the opportunity to believe or disbelieve
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I think this is why sister we were warned 1900 years ago what would happen later
“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
2 Timothy 4:1-4 KJV
just like in Eden god said the truth to inform them then a messenger of Satan contradicted it claiming the opposite .
Or just like the prophets of Israel led the people astray when they parted from thier doctrine and teachings and judgements of Moses.
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
2 Peter 2:1-2
People take single verses from Paul but don’t consider what he’s really saying in sections so they miss the teachings
“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; ( this is the purpose of hearing and believing the gospel it changes our mind from deception to truth )
and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: neither give place to the devil.
Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, ( see genesis 6 for the result of grieving his spirit ) whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.”
Ephesians 4:21-32 KJV
the part that teaches us is the teachings and doctrine telling us to change our sinful ways and follow after the gospel and the lords righteousness offered to believers
But there are false doctrines that get into believers minds and it causes them to see the doctrine of Christ as wrong
“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
2 John 1:9-10 KJV
false doctrine is the most dangerous thing in the world for Christian’s it builds up walls against the truth in our minds as we become more conviced of it it’s amazing to see how it can cause blatant rejection of things Jesus said will save souls or condemn them
“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
2 Timothy 4:1-4 KJV
just like in Eden god said the truth to inform them then a messenger of Satan contradicted it claiming the opposite .
Or just like the prophets of Israel led the people astray when they parted from thier doctrine and teachings and judgements of Moses.
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
2 Peter 2:1-2
People take single verses from Paul but don’t consider what he’s really saying in sections so they miss the teachings
“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; ( this is the purpose of hearing and believing the gospel it changes our mind from deception to truth )
and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: neither give place to the devil.
Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, ( see genesis 6 for the result of grieving his spirit ) whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.”
Ephesians 4:21-32 KJV
the part that teaches us is the teachings and doctrine telling us to change our sinful ways and follow after the gospel and the lords righteousness offered to believers
But there are false doctrines that get into believers minds and it causes them to see the doctrine of Christ as wrong
“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
2 John 1:9-10 KJV
false doctrine is the most dangerous thing in the world for Christian’s it builds up walls against the truth in our minds as we become more conviced of it it’s amazing to see how it can cause blatant rejection of things Jesus said will save souls or condemn them
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Because you said no one is born a believer , I had said no one is born a non believer either . Because if you don’t know about something you can’t believe that thing or disbelieve it you haven’t heard about it to decide .
ignorance of something isn’t unbelief. Tangibly sister of you are unaware of something you aren’t a believer of it or a disbeliever of it.
people can’t believe or disbelieve until they hear the gospel
“For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?
And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? ( no one can believe in someone or thing they haven’t heard about)
And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? ( nonone could hear the gospel and believe unless Jesus sent people out to preach it as he did )
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.”
Romans 10:10-14, 17
tou can’t accept or reject something you haven’t heard or don’t know about belief requires information so does unbelief
ignorance of something isn’t unbelief. Tangibly sister of you are unaware of something you aren’t a believer of it or a disbeliever of it.
people can’t believe or disbelieve until they hear the gospel
“For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?
And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? ( no one can believe in someone or thing they haven’t heard about)
And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? ( nonone could hear the gospel and believe unless Jesus sent people out to preach it as he did )
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.”
Romans 10:10-14, 17
tou can’t accept or reject something you haven’t heard or don’t know about belief requires information so does unbelief
Calvinists believe human kind as whole is born morally incapable of believing the Gospel message when they hear it and are taught it unless God provides revelation first.
I do not care if every person is as morally reprehensible as Hitler that isn't even the issue, the issue is belief and the ability to be morally persuaded by the power and words inherent in the Gospel message.
ONE > Mankind’s inability to submit to God’s law does not prove their inability to trust in Christ who fulfilled the law for mankind.
TWO > Mankind’s inability to please God while acting in the flesh does not prove mankind’s inability to respond to the spiritual appeal of God so as to receive his spirit.
Hebrews 3: 7
So, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you hear His voice,
do not harden your hearts."
Indicates choice, volition, being persuaded by the weight of the message, NO it does not state God will make your heart believe or give you private personal revelation to believe. The power and message of the Gospel, God's words along with the evidence is sufficient.
Every Calvinist proof text has been dealt with by who have left this sect and their hermeneutics are sound.
I do not care if every person is as morally reprehensible as Hitler that isn't even the issue, the issue is belief and the ability to be morally persuaded by the power and words inherent in the Gospel message.
ONE > Mankind’s inability to submit to God’s law does not prove their inability to trust in Christ who fulfilled the law for mankind.
TWO > Mankind’s inability to please God while acting in the flesh does not prove mankind’s inability to respond to the spiritual appeal of God so as to receive his spirit.
Hebrews 3: 7
So, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you hear His voice,
do not harden your hearts."
Indicates choice, volition, being persuaded by the weight of the message, NO it does not state God will make your heart believe or give you private personal revelation to believe. The power and message of the Gospel, God's words along with the evidence is sufficient.
Every Calvinist proof text has been dealt with by who have left this sect and their hermeneutics are sound.
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The spectacle and drama of this life basically distills down to this:
This present (latter) re-creation has an intended purpose, and is on display to the angelic host (Job 38:4-7).
The angelic host KNOW that God is "moving" in His divine goodness to somehow, some way (that they do not fully understand)
defeat the evil one (and his host) that are TORMENTING even the holy angels by his accusations and warfare against God.
This creation has BOTH darkness and light components and "seas" (in the new creation there is ONLY LIGHT, and no "sea")
We are born in sin as sinners, yes. But there is also born a SAVIOR.
There is uncertainty aka CHOICE (think Heisenberg) woven into the fabric of this creation and all created beings.
It is in this setting that God chooses to DEFEAT Satan and his host.
And settle the raging debate and false accusations of Satan once and for all.
God throughout the ages INFORMS the world of Who He is. Those who CHOOSE LIFE (in Him) of their own free will glorify God and are the "overcomers". These are they who's DESTINTY (FUTURE) has been PREpared. (PRE-DESTINED) for glory in the image of His son (Rom 8:29).
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There are many courtroom trials in Scripture. They always have man (Abraham, Adam, Job, Moses etc), Satan,
and Jesus God standing betwixt.
This is seen at trial of ADAM, and the trial of JOB, both of which illustrate that sinful fallen man CAN and DOES
choose the Savior and His salvation so promised, and have the capability and will to do so, without coercion.
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And again, we have one malefactor pinned to a cross, Jesus God on a cross BETWEEN THEM, and then a thief on a cross.
The one CHOOSES the Savior, the other blasphemes and rejects.
And BTW, Jesus REACTS to the petition of the thief, who FIRSTLY, and of his own initiative and choice asks to be "remembered".
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The Gibeonite saga again illustrates that fallen man CAN and DOES tenaciously cling on to Him who provides the Covenant.
They never failed in their commitment throughout the ages, despite terrible persecution by Saul. Nothing bad is ever
spoken about these ***GENTILE*** Gibeonites, who never failed whereas the "first born son" Israel failed time and time again.
The Gibeonites did what anybody can do if they are WILLING.
This present (latter) re-creation has an intended purpose, and is on display to the angelic host (Job 38:4-7).
The angelic host KNOW that God is "moving" in His divine goodness to somehow, some way (that they do not fully understand)
defeat the evil one (and his host) that are TORMENTING even the holy angels by his accusations and warfare against God.
This creation has BOTH darkness and light components and "seas" (in the new creation there is ONLY LIGHT, and no "sea")
We are born in sin as sinners, yes. But there is also born a SAVIOR.
There is uncertainty aka CHOICE (think Heisenberg) woven into the fabric of this creation and all created beings.
It is in this setting that God chooses to DEFEAT Satan and his host.
And settle the raging debate and false accusations of Satan once and for all.
God throughout the ages INFORMS the world of Who He is. Those who CHOOSE LIFE (in Him) of their own free will glorify God and are the "overcomers". These are they who's DESTINTY (FUTURE) has been PREpared. (PRE-DESTINED) for glory in the image of His son (Rom 8:29).
=========================================================================
There are many courtroom trials in Scripture. They always have man (Abraham, Adam, Job, Moses etc), Satan,
and Jesus God standing betwixt.
This is seen at trial of ADAM, and the trial of JOB, both of which illustrate that sinful fallen man CAN and DOES
choose the Savior and His salvation so promised, and have the capability and will to do so, without coercion.
============================================================================
And again, we have one malefactor pinned to a cross, Jesus God on a cross BETWEEN THEM, and then a thief on a cross.
The one CHOOSES the Savior, the other blasphemes and rejects.
And BTW, Jesus REACTS to the petition of the thief, who FIRSTLY, and of his own initiative and choice asks to be "remembered".
=============================================================================
The Gibeonite saga again illustrates that fallen man CAN and DOES tenaciously cling on to Him who provides the Covenant.
They never failed in their commitment throughout the ages, despite terrible persecution by Saul. Nothing bad is ever
spoken about these ***GENTILE*** Gibeonites, who never failed whereas the "first born son" Israel failed time and time again.
The Gibeonites did what anybody can do if they are WILLING.
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That is how proof texts in Calvinism works 
.... cherry pick here and there with texts and ideas that are not even related and written for a different audience for a different purpose.
.... cherry pick here and there with texts and ideas that are not even related and written for a different audience for a different purpose.
Its horrific and ghoulish.
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There are a MULTITUDE of examples in the gospels of how individuals TOOK THE INITIATIVE and approached Jesus for cleansing and healing and forgiveness of sins.
That is EXACTLY what this existence is all about.
Let the chosenites try and twist this scene into a Calvininte farce:
[Luk 7:37 NKJV]
And behold, a woman in the city who was a sinner, ***when she knew*** that [Jesus] sat at the table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of fragrant oil,
[Luk 7:38 NKJV]
and stood at His feet behind [Him] weeping; and she began to wash His feet with her tears, and wiped [them] with the hair of her head; and she kissed His feet and anointed [them] with the fragrant oil.
[Luk 7:44 NKJV]
Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has (taken the initiative) washed My feet with her tears and wiped [them] with the hair of her head.
[Luk 7:45 NKJV]
"You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in.
[Luk 7:46 NKJV]
"You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has (taken the initiative) anointed My feet with fragrant oil.
[Luk 7:47 NKJV]
"Therefore I say to you, her sins, which [are] many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, [the same] loves little."
[Luk 7:48 NKJV]
***Then*** He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
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This "debate" is over. Whether the Calvinites understand it or not.
That is EXACTLY what this existence is all about.
Let the chosenites try and twist this scene into a Calvininte farce:
[Luk 7:37 NKJV]
And behold, a woman in the city who was a sinner, ***when she knew*** that [Jesus] sat at the table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of fragrant oil,
[Luk 7:38 NKJV]
and stood at His feet behind [Him] weeping; and she began to wash His feet with her tears, and wiped [them] with the hair of her head; and she kissed His feet and anointed [them] with the fragrant oil.
[Luk 7:44 NKJV]
Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has (taken the initiative) washed My feet with her tears and wiped [them] with the hair of her head.
[Luk 7:45 NKJV]
"You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in.
[Luk 7:46 NKJV]
"You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has (taken the initiative) anointed My feet with fragrant oil.
[Luk 7:47 NKJV]
"Therefore I say to you, her sins, which [are] many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, [the same] loves little."
[Luk 7:48 NKJV]
***Then*** He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
==================================================================
This "debate" is over. Whether the Calvinites understand it or not.
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