Understanding God’s election

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cv5

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There are a MULTITUDE of examples in the gospels of how individuals TOOK THE INITIATIVE and approached Jesus for cleansing and healing and forgiveness of sins.

That is EXACTLY what this existence is all about.

Let the chosenites try and twist this scene into a Calvininte farce:

[Luk 7:37 NKJV]
And behold, a woman in the city who was a sinner, ***when she knew*** that [Jesus] sat at the table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of fragrant oil,

[Luk 7:38 NKJV]
and stood at His feet behind [Him] weeping; and she began to wash His feet with her tears, and wiped [them] with the hair of her head; and she kissed His feet and anointed [them] with the fragrant oil.

[Luk 7:44 NKJV]
Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has (taken the initiative) washed My feet with her tears and wiped [them] with the hair of her head.

[Luk 7:45 NKJV]
"You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in.

[Luk 7:46 NKJV]
"You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has (taken the initiative) anointed My feet with fragrant oil.

[Luk 7:47 NKJV]
"Therefore I say to you, her sins, which [are] many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, [the same] loves little."

[Luk 7:48 NKJV]
***Then*** He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

==================================================================
This "debate" is over. Whether the Calvinites understand it or not.
This woman knew just the same as those of Gennesaret knew. EVERYBODY KNEW. No excuses.
And the point here is that she knew WHERE HE WAS LOCATED.
And then she took swift decisive action.

Mat 14:34
And when they were gone over, they came into the land of Gennesaret.
Mat 14:35
And when the men of that place had knowledge G1921 of him (WHERE HE WAS LOCATED), they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;

Luk 7:37
And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew G1921 that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, (WHERE HE WAS LOCATED) brought an alabaster box of ointment,

==================================================================

Leaving no room for Calvinite hocus pocus.
 

Rufus

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Probably not a good idea from a good hermeneutics perspective to use David and his emotional outpouring as he contemplates life as a definitive statement regarding fallen man.
So...that "emotional outpouring" of David was not inspired by the Holy Spirit? Anything that any of us don't like in scripture, we can just make up excuses to discount, dismiss or ignore such passages?
 

Rufus

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Yes the message and the doctrine of salvation is the same.
All good verses which once again very clearly state the word "believe."
Belief in something or someone is a personal act based on the reliability, trustworthiness of the evidence.

I noticed how clearly it states Paul taught them.

How can something so clear get so twisted.
You free willers who are born spiritually dead and FREE FROM righteousness twist God's truth because you refuse to see that the dead are helples, without power and are in need of rescuing. Some of you even think you are worthy of God's salvation.
 

Magenta

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You free willers who are born spiritually dead and FREE FROM righteousness twist God's truth because you refuse to see that the dead are helples, without power and are in need of rescuing. Some of you even think you are worthy of God's salvation.
And don't forget that they didn't need God's help in coming to believe either! Certainly not like some others might have...
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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There are a MULTITUDE of examples in the gospels of how individuals TOOK THE INITIATIVE and approached Jesus for cleansing and healing and forgiveness of sins.

That is EXACTLY what this existence is all about.

Let the chosenites try and twist this scene into a Calvininte farce:

[Luk 7:37 NKJV]
And behold, a woman in the city who was a sinner, ***when she knew*** that [Jesus] sat at the table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of fragrant oil,

[Luk 7:38 NKJV]
and stood at His feet behind [Him] weeping; and she began to wash His feet with her tears, and wiped [them] with the hair of her head; and she kissed His feet and anointed [them] with the fragrant oil.

[Luk 7:44 NKJV]
Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has (taken the initiative) washed My feet with her tears and wiped [them] with the hair of her head.

[Luk 7:45 NKJV]
"You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in.

[Luk 7:46 NKJV]
"You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has (taken the initiative) anointed My feet with fragrant oil.

[Luk 7:47 NKJV]
"Therefore I say to you, her sins, which [are] many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, [the same] loves little."

[Luk 7:48 NKJV]
***Then*** He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

==================================================================
This "debate" is over. Whether the Calvinites understand it or not.
It has never occurred to you that those multitudes "took the initiative" because God the Father drew them to his Son (Jn 6:44, 65)?

Also, you seem to be assuming that all those who sought Jesus out and were healed were all believers? Have you forgotten that 10 lepers called out to Jesus to cleanse them and yet only 1 of them returned to give thanksgiving to Jesus?
 

Rufus

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You should be afraid of endlessly condemning every human being except yourself with ghoulish glee.
But all human beings stand condemned -- even by one's man's sin. See Rom 5:18 and also Eph 2:3.
 

Rufus

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Because you said no one is born a believer , I had said no one is born a non believer either . Because if you don’t know about something you can’t believe that thing or disbelieve it you haven’t heard about it to decide .

ignorance of something isn’t unbelief. Tangibly sister of you are unaware of something you aren’t a believer of it or a disbeliever of it.

people can’t believe or disbelieve until they hear the gospel

“For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”



How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?

And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? ( no one can believe in someone or thing they haven’t heard about)

And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? ( nonone could hear the gospel and believe unless Jesus sent people out to preach it as he did )

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:10-14, 17‬ ‭

tou can’t accept or reject something you haven’t heard or don’t know about belief requires information so does unbelief
Well then...since no one is born an unbeliever, then it logically follows that no one has to become a believer. This is like saying, no one is born a sinner. Well, if that's the case, then no one needs to be saved from sins that only sinners can commit.
 

cv5

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It has never occurred to you that those multitudes "took the initiative" because God the Father drew them to his Son (Jn 6:44, 65)?

Also, you seem to be assuming that all those who sought Jesus out and were healed were all believers? Have you forgotten that 10 lepers called out to Jesus to cleanse them and yet only 1 of them returned to give thanksgiving to Jesus?
You lose.

And the thing is, you have no answer to the trial of Adam and the trial of Job, nor do you understand them in the least, nor do you comprehend the implications.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Because you said no one is born a believer , I had said no one is born a non believer either . Because if you don’t know about something you can’t believe that thing or disbelieve it you haven’t heard about it to decide .

ignorance of something isn’t unbelief. Tangibly sister of you are unaware of something you aren’t a believer of it or a disbeliever of it.

people can’t believe or disbelieve until they hear the gospel

“For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”



How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?

And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? ( no one can believe in someone or thing they haven’t heard about)

And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? ( nonone could hear the gospel and believe unless Jesus sent people out to preach it as he did )

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:10-14, 17‬ ‭

tou can’t accept or reject something you haven’t heard or don’t know about belief requires information so does unbelief
“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

( now he can believe or disbelieve )

And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

( this man didn’t know what Isaiah was talking about until Philip preached Jesus to him after he heard he could believe and be baptized )

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:35-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Calvinists believe human kind as whole is born morally incapable of believing the Gospel message when they hear it and are taught it unless God provides revelation first.

I do not care if every person is as morally reprehensible as Hitler that isn't even the issue, the issue is belief and the ability to be morally persuaded by the power and words inherent in the Gospel message.

ONE > Mankind’s inability to submit to God’s law does not prove their inability to trust in Christ who fulfilled the law for mankind.
TWO > Mankind’s inability to please God while acting in the flesh does not prove mankind’s inability to respond to the spiritual appeal of God so as to receive his spirit.

Hebrews 3: 7
So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear His voice,
do not harden your hearts."

Indicates choice, volition, being persuaded by the weight of the message, NO it does not state God will make your heart believe or give you private personal revelation to believe. The power and message of the Gospel, God's words along with the evidence is sufficient.

Every Calvinist proof text has been dealt with by who have left this sect and their hermeneutics are sound.
Im not really sure what calvanists believe , I’m familiar with Calvin’s writings . But people can read the same thing and come to different conclusions. I find some good and also some really wrong conclusions overall in his writings but just my own perception of it

The thing is if you look carefully God makes a covenant with people and then they end up breaking it and become at the end of the covenant wicked and are destroyed. There’s a series of this repeating itself you see it in genesis God makes a covenant with man , man breaks the covenant and over a long times period they become wicked

beginning of a covenant

“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

man sins and then after a time period the result

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. ( we aren’t made by God like this sin does it to us over time ) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-7‬ ‭

many don’t realize this happened over time before this became the condition of man some walked with God and we’re righteous . But over time th e inowledge of sin corrupts humankind

God destroys the wicked and then begins again with Noah eventually choosing abrams offspring as a people eventually the second generation inder Joshua they become obedient to God bit later generations turn away from him and again become inheriantly wicked over time until we again see God look down and see like genesis 6 that there’s no one left who isn’t sinful and wicked and turned against him so again he destroyed the wicked people spared a few and made a new covenant with all people …. We’re told again in the end man will become inheriantly wicked and and be destroyed this time by fire ect

But exactly as your saying this part

“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

has always been a capability of mankind

“And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

cv5

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You free willers who are born spiritually dead and FREE FROM righteousness twist God's truth because you refuse to see that the dead are helples, without power and are in need of rescuing. Some of you even think you are worthy of God's salvation.
Adam CHOSE to sin (a wrong choice) of his own free will.....WHILE HE WAS SINLESS AND PERFECT in full fellowship with God.

And THEN, AFTER HE FELL Adam ***chose*** to do the RIGHT THING of his own free will.....by preventing Eve from eating from the tree of life, and refusing to eat from the tree of life himself (which was a devastating temptation under the circumstances! Adam by his own sheer will power refused). And then this now fallen ashamed Adam did the RIGHT THING by testifying TRUTHFULLY (as did the Woman) at the trial of Satan.

There is much much more to say about it. But why bother reposting the lectures?
These are the INITIAL CONDITIONS if you even understand what that means.

[Mat 15:14 KJV]
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Yes, it must grieve God horribly to teach God acts on some people and gives them a positive response to the Gospel and He is willing to leave others in their sin when they had no ability to even receive the Good News.
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-7‬ ‭

yes in that view if we’re not saved apparently It’s just because God didn’t want to save us or make us capable of being saved ……this don’t acceptable to me given the character of God and his Will that all be saved and come to knowledge of the truth

imagine if the bible taught “ you will not be judged based on your own actions good and bad but you’ll be judged because God wants to save some of you and not others

God isn’t unjust
 

Rufus

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You lose.

And the thing is, you have no answer to the trial of Adam and the trial of Job, nor do you understand them in the least, nor do you comprehend the implications.
I lose, but you can't comprehend what Jesus said in Jn 6:44, 65? Funny how that works. :rolleyes:
 

Pilgrimshope

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Well then...since no one is born an unbeliever, then it logically follows that no one has to become a believer. This is like saying, no one is born a sinner. Well, if that's the case, then no one needs to be saved from sins that only sinners can commit.
Yeah I don’t agree with your logic there at all don’t even see how you come up with that confusion .

abut let me ask you a simple ?

If you met someone who had never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ …….and you asked them if they believe the gospel and in Jesus Christ

do you think they would probably have to hear the gospel and about Jesus before they can say “ yes I believe it or no i didn’t believe it ? “

Or would they just guess at what the gospel meant and who Jesus is ? And if they believed it or not ?

basic elementary thought you cannot accept or reject something you aren’t aware of its impossible to do so after you’ve heard it you can conclude and answer
 

Rufus

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Adam CHOSE to sin (a wrong choice) of his own free will.....WHILE HE WAS SINLESS AND PERFECT in full fellowship with God.

And THEN, AFTER HE FELL Adam ***chose*** to do the RIGHT THING of his own free will.....by preventing Eve from eating from the tree of life, and refusing to eat from the tree of life himself (which was a devastating temptation under the circumstances! Adam by his own sheer will power refused). And then this now fallen ashamed Adam did the RIGHT THING by testifying TRUTHFULLY (as did the Woman) at the trial of Satan.

There is much much more to say about it. But why bother reposting the lectures?
These are the INITIAL CONDITIONS if you even understand what that means.

[Mat 15:14 KJV]
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Wow! Who woulda thunk that Adam is the superhero after he sinned? But where is it written that Adam prevented Eve from eating from the "tree of life"? Why do you make up fairy tales? Because they give you warm 'n' fuzzy feelings inside?

Also, if anyone was prevented from doing anything in the Garden, it was Adam! God's anger clearly burned against Adam as He drove the man out of the Garden so that he would not take from that tree, and He stationed angels so that Adam couldn't come back in. Apparently God didn't trust your superhero!
 

Rufus

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Yeah I don’t agree with your logic there at all don’t even see how you come up with that confusion .

abut let me ask you a simple ?

If you met someone who had never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ …….and you asked them if they believe the gospel and in Jesus Christ

do you think they would probably have to hear the gospel and about Jesus before they can say “ yes I believe it or no i didn’t believe it ? “

Or would they just guess at what the gospel meant and who Jesus is ? And if they believed it or not ?

basic elementary thought you cannot accept or reject something you aren’t aware of its impossible to do so after you’ve heard it you can conclude and answer
The logic is very straightforward and simple: Only unbelievers need to become believers. But in your universe, no one comes into this world as an unbeliever. Yet...there are only two kinds of people in this world: saints (believers) and sinners (unbelievers). Don't blame me if your premise is illogical.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Yes, and they are content to pervert the all-loving God into a hateful demon toward the unchosen. ☹️
That seems to be more the type of thing that liars who deliberately twist and misrepresent other people's position say. Sometimes they say such things in a pathetic attempt to hide the fact that they refuse to accept what Scripture plainly states.
 

Pilgrimshope

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The logic is very straightforward and simple: Only unbelievers need to become believers. But in your universe, no one comes into this world as an unbeliever. Yet...there are only two kinds of people in this world: saints (believers) and sinners (unbelievers). Don't blame me if your premise is illogical.
You disbelieve things you’ve never heard about or known about ?

I would say that makes a person unaware of something and therefore they can’t possibly believe or disbelieve whatever it is . Seems basic.

humans have eyes and ears paths to thier mind and heart God made us that way because that’s how he communicates with us through word and witness

I’m gonna let you have the last word again my point is simple one cannot believe or disbelieve anything they are unaware of it’s impossible or foolish to confess belief in things we’ve never heard of could be commiting to anything if we’ve never heard what it is lol but anyways imna try to respond to some other notifications

i don’t think this particular point really requires a lot of discussion to believe something or to reject it and not believe it hearing about it is required before belief or disbelief of whatever the thing is
 

rogerg

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You free willers who are born spiritually dead and FREE FROM righteousness twist God's truth because you refuse to see that the dead are helples, without power and are in need of rescuing. Some of you even think you are worthy of God's salvation.
They are so wrong on so many levels that it is impossible to know where to even begin to try to untangle it all - truly astounding - error upon error - they mistakenly perceive error for truth - when beginning from a wrong foundation, everything built on that foundation, will also be wrong. It's sort of an error-based defense in depth: errors built upon errors are difficult, if not impossible, to penetrate.

Good on you though for having the endurance and being willing to keep trying.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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many don’t realize this happened over time before this became the condition of man some walked with God and we’re righteous . But over time the inowledge of sin corrupts humankind‬‬
I just want to edit and respond to this part because I've seen you express this idea before as if there was some long long period of time before man became completely corrupt, when the fact of the matter is that Adam's sin corrupted the whole of creation and his first son murdered his second son... I also wonder what you mean by saying the knowledge of sin corrupted mankind? I would think it was more the fact that sin itself corrupted Mankind.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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You disbelieve things you’ve never heard about or known about ?

I would say that makes a person unaware of something and therefore they can’t possibly believe or disbelieve whatever it is . Seems basic.

humans have eyes and ears paths to thier mind and heart God made us that way because that’s how he communicates with us through word and witness

I’m gonna let you have the last word again my point is simple one cannot believe or disbelieve anything they are unaware of it’s impossible or foolish to confess belief in things we’ve never heard of could be commiting to anything if we’ve never heard what it is lol but anyways imna try to respond to some other notifications

i don’t think this particular point really requires a lot of discussion to believe something or to reject it and not believe it hearing about it is required before belief or disbelief of whatever the thing is
Well then...since I didn't come into this world as a believer, then this implies I was an unbeliever for most of my life until I heard the gospel and believed it by the grace of God. Why would I need to become a believer if when I heard the gospel I wasn't an unbeliever all my life? Only unbelievers need to become believers.