Understanding God’s election

[Pilgrimshope]

I just want to edit and respond to this part because I've seen you express this idea before as if there was some long long period of time before man became completely corrupt, when the fact of the matter is that Adam's sin corrupted the whole of creation and his first son murdered his second son... I also wonder what you mean by saying the knowledge of sin corrupted mankind? I would think it was more the fact that sin itself corrupted Mankind.

I’ll be back in a bit and show you the scriptures if your willing to read them be back sis

 

[HeIsHere]

So...that "emotional outpouring" of David was not inspired by the Holy Spirit? Anything that any of us don't like in scripture, we can just make up excuses to discount, dismiss or ignore such passages?

Not what I wrote.

 

[Rufus]

They are so wrong on so many levels that it is impossible to know where to even begin to try to untangle it all - truly astounding - error upon error - they mistakenly perceive error for truth - when beginning from a wrong foundation, everything built on that foundation, will also be wrong. It's sort of an error-based defense in depth: errors built upon errors are difficult, if not impossible, to penetrate.

Good on you though for having the endurance and being willing to keep trying.

Only by God's grace do I forbear....

 

[Magenta]

I’ll be back in a bit and show you the scriptures if your willing to read them be back sis

I'm not sure why you feel a need to get Scriptures when we agree that man is corrupted and clearly it goes all the way back to Adam. How is it that you understand Adam's knowledge of good and evil? In your view did he already know good in knowing God and the evil he came to know was within himself for disobeying God?

 

[Rufus]

Not what I wrote.

Oh...but you basically said that it ain't good hermeneutics to hang on David's emotional outburst or expressions. At minimum, such a sentiment comes off as being dismissive of what he wrote. You came off as saying that there's no present day application for us in such passages. Buyer Beware! A Davidic knee-jerk, tear-filled emotional plea straight ahead...

 

[rogerg]

Only by God's grace do I forbear....

Amen

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I'm not sure why you feel a need to get Scriptures when we agree that man is corrupted and clearly it goes all the way back to Adam. How is it that you understand Adam's knowledge of good and evil? In your view did he already know good in knowing God and the evil he came to know was within himself for disobeying God?

well sis the reason i would offer to show YOU scripture that shows what i was saying , is because you told me its not true. and i believe scripture set before YOU showing that its actually worth maybe considering , might mean more to you (no caps lol)than showing others who dont have as much reverance for the scripture. but i dont have to share the scriptures that explain my argument in the discussion we are having about the bible if you would rather not get into that.

 

[GWH]

It has never occurred to you that those multitudes "took the initiative" because God the Father drew them to his Son (Jn 6:44, 65)?

Also, you seem to be assuming that all those who sought Jesus out and were healed were all believers? Have you forgotten that 10 lepers called out to Jesus to cleanse them and yet only 1 of them returned to give thanksgiving to Jesus?

Has it never occurred to you that those multitudes who did not take the initiative were NOT drawn by the Father which makes Him to be as hateful as Satan? I would not want to show up at the pearly gates having to explain THAT interpretation to Jesus, who said that we should love our enemies to manifest God’s perfection.

 

[Magenta]

well sis the reason i would offer to show YOU scripture that shows what i was saying , is because you told me its not true. and i believe scripture set before YOU showing that its actually worth maybe considering , might mean more to you (no caps lol)than showing others who dont have as much reverance for the scripture. but i dont have to share the scriptures that explain my argument in the discussion we are having about the bible if you would rather not get into that.

I do not recall saying it wasn't true. What I'm saying is the corruption goes right back to Adam. Do you disagree? How much more corrupt does it get than one brother killing his other brother when there are only 2 that we know of?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I do not recall saying it wasn't true. What I'm saying is the corruption goes right back to Adam. Do you disagree? How much more corrupt does it get than one brother killing his other brother when there are only 2 that we know of?

sis you made a whole comment saying that you needed to adress that it wasnt true lol thats why i offered the scripture. to show that its worth reconsidering ,,,unless im hallucinating from blood pressure hahaha

i like discussing with you because your mature and have the right spirit...but yes i agree man was corrupted to know good and also evil which wasnt the plan through adam absolutely

 

[Magenta]

sis you made a whole comment saying that you needed to adress that it wasnt true lol thats why i offered the scripture. to show that its worth reconsidering ,,,unless im hallucinating from blood pressure hahaha

i like discussing with you because your mature and have the right spirit...but yes i agree man was corrupted to know good and also evil which wasnt the plan through adam absolutely

Well I did not use those words so that's why I was questioning that part of it... certainly man is corrupt... you have more than once given the impression that it took a long time for man to get that way whereas I am saying man was corrupted as soon as Adam ate the forbidden fruit... all of creation was affected. But Jesus had already been purposed... so God knew this was going to happen because Jesus was not plan B.

 

[Blain]

sis you made a whole comment saying that you needed to adress that it wasnt true lol thats why i offered the scripture. to show that its worth reconsidering ,,,unless im hallucinating from blood pressure hahaha

i like discussing with you because your mature and have the right spirit...but yes i agree man was corrupted to know good and also evil which wasnt the plan through adam absolutely

I also appreciate seeing a brother and sister in Christ able to be mature and speak with the right spirit I am grateful for you both

As for that blood pressure I completely understand

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I also appreciate seeing a brother and sister in Christ able to be mature and speak with the right spirit I am grateful for you both

As for that blood pressure I completely understand

you always have a good spirit even in a disagreement and are appreciated as well brother one of the best examples here far better than me lol

 

[Genez]

I do have a different take on it.

We are physically born dichotomous......Body and soul.

When we are made a new Creation/born again in Christ we become trichotomous.......body, soul and spirit. I do see this as our spirit was dead(spiritually) and is made alive the moment we personally believe/trust in Christ.

And I do believe we are born condemned. This sounds bad on the surface, but it is a blessing in disguise. Whatever is condemned.......is savable! The moment we are born, God condemns us(we have done nothing wrong) that means the moment we are born......we are savable! He can have mercy on ANYONE.....babies, mentally ill and anyone who cannot make a rational choice for Christ.

There is a simple reason we are all born condemned.

Our human father was Adam.

Adam passed down the sin nature that is in our flesh, which he acquired when he fell.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, ​

for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12​

​

Then comes the Gospel....

 

[Inquisitor]

Only for those whose purpose in life is to misinterpret scripture by not considering context. Pilgrim guy quoted Ex 32 totally out of its context. The "book of the living" and the" book of life" are not synonymous phrases.

How can you utter these words?

"totally out of its context"

The overriding revelation is Jesus and His unconditional love for everyone, and not love for His favorites.

God is not partial to anyone, not biased in His sovereignty over all mankind.

The true context in the N.T is Jesus Christ and His unconditional love for all of us.

Not some distorted interpretation of God's sovereignty.

God is love, Rufus.

Christ was predestined and so was the gift of love.

God is perfect and so is His love for all mankind, perfect love.

Never a limited atonement.

Romans 2:11
For there is no partiality with God.

 

[Blain]

you always have a good spirit even in a disagreement and are appreciated as well brother one of the best examples here far better than me lol

Thank you that means a lot to me

 

[Inquisitor]

Paul is talking to both Jewish and Gentile believers. Did you miss the cite I gave earlier in Rom 11 wherein he addresses the Gentile believers. Also, you have conveniently overlooked this passage in chapter 1:

Rom 1:8-13
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. 9 God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10 in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God's will the way may be opened for me to come to you.

11 I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong— 12 that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith. 13 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I planned many times to come to you (but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other Gentiles.
NIV

By the way, the operative phrase in v.13 = THE OTHER GENTILES! But I suppose you're going to tell me that you don't take this passage literally either? If Paul was writing to only Jews or even primarily to Jewish believers, why in the world would he speak about "other Gentiles"? Or wait...maybe Paul only wrote chapter 1 to the Gentiles? Is that what you're going to tell me next?

Lastly, you might want to check out Act2 wherein Luke recorded that Paul preached to the Jews and Gentiles when he arrived in Rome -- all of which is consistent with Romans 1. There were already Jewish and Gentile believers in Rome long before Paul arrived there.

You non-reformed folks are pretty clueless when it comes to rightly exegeting and interpreting scripture. You will not stop at anything to support all your presuppositional falsehoods.

Now read the text below in that introduction to the letter to the Romans carefully.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,
to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Now read the second verse in the second chapter of Romans.

Romans 2:17
But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the Law and boast in God.

How anyone can ignore the underlying context of Romans 2 to 11, is staggering.

Given we have been reading the scripture for centuries.

There are two distinct groups in Romans, the Jews and the Gentiles.

Not the chosen and the unchosen.

 

[Kroogz]

The spectacle and drama of this life basically distills down to this:

This present (latter) re-creation has an intended purpose, and is on display to the angelic host (Job 38:4-7).
The angelic host KNOW that God is "moving" in His divine goodness to somehow, some way (that they do not fully understand)
defeat the evil one (and his host) that are TORMENTING even the holy angels by his accusations and warfare against God.

This creation has BOTH darkness and light components and "seas" (in the new creation there is ONLY LIGHT, and no "sea")
We are born in sin as sinners, yes. But there is also born a SAVIOR.
There is uncertainty aka CHOICE (think Heisenberg) woven into the fabric of this creation and all created beings.

It is in this setting that God chooses to DEFEAT Satan and his host.
And settle the raging debate and false accusations of Satan once and for all.

God throughout the ages INFORMS the world of Who He is. Those who CHOOSE LIFE (in Him) of their own free will glorify God and are the "overcomers". These are they who's DESTINTY (FUTURE) has been PREpared. (PRE-DESTINED) for glory in the image of His son (Rom 8:29).

=========================================================================

There are many courtroom trials in Scripture. They always have man (Abraham, Adam, Job, Moses etc), Satan,
and Jesus God standing betwixt.

This is seen at trial of ADAM, and the trial of JOB, both of which illustrate that sinful fallen man CAN and DOES
choose the Savior and His salvation so promised, and have the capability and will to do so, without coercion.

============================================================================

And again, we have one malefactor pinned to a cross, Jesus God on a cross BETWEEN THEM, and then a thief on a cross.

The one CHOOSES the Savior, the other blasphemes and rejects.

And BTW, Jesus REACTS to the petition of the thief, who FIRSTLY, and of his own initiative and choice asks to be "remembered".

=============================================================================

The Gibeonite saga again illustrates that fallen man CAN and DOES tenaciously cling on to Him who provides the Covenant.
They never failed in their commitment throughout the ages, despite terrible persecution by Saul. Nothing bad is ever
spoken about these ***GENTILE*** Gibeonites, who never failed whereas the "first born son" Israel failed time and time again.
The Gibeonites did what anybody can do if they are WILLING.

Well said brother!

 

[Cameron143]

How can you utter these words?

"totally out of its context"

The overriding revelation is Jesus and His unconditional love for everyone, and not love for His favorites.

God is not partial to anyone, not biased in His sovereignty over all mankind.

The true context in the N.T is Jesus Christ and His unconditional love for all of us.

Not some distorted interpretation of God's sovereignty.

God is love, Rufus.

Christ was predestined and so was the gift of love.

God is perfect and so is His love for all mankind, perfect love.

Never a limited atonement.

Romans 2:11
For there is no partiality with God.

Not sure you understand what God not being a respecter of persons means. It does not mean that God is not impartial. It can easily be shown that God is partial.

When the Bible says that God is no respecter of persons, it simply means God doesn't choose on the basis of anything having to do with the individual. He makes choices independent of the consideration of anything that is outside of Himself.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thank you that means a lot to me

Just a true statement bro , you always have a kind and gentle spirit and it’s appreciated we can do this

“And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Or this

“For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i appreciate the first Because I believe it leads to growth and fruits of the spirit