Understanding God’s election

[Blain]

And gleefully condemning, crippling, accusing every person that comes into the world, and denying a freely available salvation to every Tom Dick and Harry before they were ever born is some kind of wicked fruit.

Wellyou see who is encouraging and being respectful and those who are putting others down while lifting themselves up that alone is some bad fruit but like you said there is some pretty bad fruit in that line of thinking.

Not to mention how many verses speak of salvation to all vs the verses that speak of predestined damnation? it is far and few in between I would think that should be a red flag

I mean just these few say it all

• Romans 10:13: "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved".
  
  
• 1 Timothy 2:4: "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth".
  
  
• Titus 2:11-12: God's grace offers salvation to all people, and teaches people to live godly lives.
  
  
• 2 Peter 3:9: God desires that all sinners be saved

 

[Blain]

I mean I may be insane but it doesn't seem to be any more clear to me

 

[Inquisitor]

The topic is election. Reread the topic thread. What do you make of Romans 9:21-23?

The topic is election, Cameron.

You are seeking clarification of some verses in Romans 9.

I added two extra verses and let the context speak more clearly.

Romans 9:21-25
Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use,
and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known,
endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches
of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory. namely us, whom He also called,
not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles, as He also says in Hosea:
“I will call those who were not My people, My people".

A quick explanation because I know where this argument is heading, see below.

Romans 9:30-31
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but
the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

The clay for 'honorable use' is the Jews and the clay for 'common use' was the Gentiles.

The 'objects of wrath' was everyone, that is, Jews and Gentiles combined.

'Objects of mercy' are those that believe in Jesus and that is by grace through faith.

 

[Blain]

The topic is election, Cameron.

You are seeking clarification of some verses in Romans 9.

I added two extra verses and let the context speak more clearly.

Romans 9:21-25
Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use,
and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known,
endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches
of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory. namely us, whom He also called,
not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles, as He also says in Hosea:
“I will call those who were not My people, My people".

A quick explanation because I know where this argument is heading, see below.

Romans 9:30-31
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but
the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

The clay for 'honorable use' is the Jews and the clay for 'common use' was the Gentiles.

The 'objects of wrath' was everyone, that is, Jews and Gentiles combined.

'Objects of mercy' are those that believe in Jesus and that is by grace through faith.

interesting but you might notice he only mentioned objects of mercy being preordained objects of wrath howerver it just says it is jews and gentiles combined it didn't say they were prepared beforehand and the context of the scriptures you posted speaks of jews and gentiles but also of faith faith comes by hearing the word those who reject it have prepared themselves for wrath

Or perhaps you can point to me where it says they were damned before hand I am legally blind so I may have missed it

 

[Inquisitor]

We are separated from God when we sin and won’t repent when he calls for it

Do you mean when they here the gospel?

That seems to be the line in the sand that God drew.

 

[Cameron143]

The topic is election, Cameron.

You are seeking clarification of some verses in Romans 9.

I added two extra verses and let the context speak more clearly.

Romans 9:21-25
Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use,
and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known,
endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches
of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory. namely us, whom He also called,
not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles, as He also says in Hosea:
“I will call those who were not My people, My people".

A quick explanation because I know where this argument is heading, see below.

Romans 9:30-31
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but
the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

The clay for 'honorable use' is the Jews and the clay for 'common use' was the Gentiles.

The 'objects of wrath' was everyone, that is, Jews and Gentiles combined.

'Objects of mercy' are those that believe in Jesus and that is by grace through faith.

My only point in asking about the verses was to show people fit themselves for destruction because someone said that reformed theology led to double predestination. I was merely pointing out that needn't be the case.

 

[Blain]

Also @Inquisitor what do you make of the verses I posted?

 

[cv5]

encouraging and being respectful

I am definitely not guilty of encouraging and being respectful to appallingly erroneous doctrine.

 

[Blain]

I am definitely not guilty of encouraging and being respectful to appallingly erroneous doctrine.

We all have our limits my friend but still I would encourage you to try your best

 

[cv5]

We all have our limits my friend but still I would encourage you to try your best

Just doing my job.

[Act 7:51 KJV]
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

[Act 7:52 KJV]
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

[Act 7:53 KJV]
Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it].

[Act 7:54 KJV]
When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.

[Act 7:57 KJV]
Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

[Act 7:58 KJV]
And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

 

[Blain]

Just doing my job.

[Act 7:51 KJV]
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

[Act 7:52 KJV]
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

[Act 7:53 KJV]
Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it].

[Act 7:54 KJV]
When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.

[Act 7:57 KJV]
Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

[Act 7:58 KJV]
And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

If that is how the spirit leads you then go for it I will do things how I am lead as well.

 

[Inquisitor]

interesting but you might notice he only mentioned objects of mercy being preordained objects of wrath howerver it just says it is jews and gentiles combined it didn't say they were prepared beforehand and the context of the scriptures you posted speaks of jews and gentiles but also of faith faith comes by hearing the word those who reject it have prepared themselves for wrath

Or perhaps you can point to me where it says they were damned before hand I am legally blind so I may have missed it

Not sure where you picked up the following idea from?

"he only mentioned objects of mercy being preordained objects of wrath"

Paul is really talking about Israel not so much about the Gentile plight.

Israel failed because they pursued a law of righteousness.

"however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law".

Which is compounded by, '“I will call those who were not My people, My people".

God has indeed rejected the honorable clay (the Jews) and chosen the common clay (the Gentiles).

The Jews were the chosen people and the Gentiles were the dogs.

The Jews were the elect all the way through the scripture!

Context!

 

[Blain]

Not sure where you picked up the following idea from?

"he only mentioned objects of mercy being preordained objects of wrath"

Paul is really talking about Israel not so much about the Gentile plight.

Israel failed because they pursued a law of righteousness.

"however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law".

Which is compounded by, '“I will call those who were not My people, My people".

God has indeed rejected the honorable clay (the Jews) and chosen the common clay (the Gentiles).

The Jews were the chosen people and the Gentiles were the dogs.

The Jews were the elect all the way through the scripture!

Context!

ok so how does it tie to election in the sense that some were chosen for salvation and others for wrath? Yes what you say is true but how does it make election of the preordained to be saved while others for wrath?

Also I was still curious what you thought about the verses I posted

 

[cv5]

ok so how does it tie to election in the sense that some were chosen for salvation and others for wrath? Yes what you say is true but how does it make election of the preordained to be saved while others for wrath?

Also I was still curious what you thought about the verses I posted

Do yourself a big favor: scrap the entire Calvinista train of thought and start over.

I will PM you will some top-notch lectures that will fill in the blanks.

 

[Blain]

Do yourself a big favor: scrap the entire Calvinista train of thought and start over.

I will PM you will some top-notch lectures that will fill in the blanks.

oh.... calvinist is that this is about? That would explain a lot no offence to any calvinists but yeah that would make sense

 

[Genez]

"The reprobate like the elect are appointed to be so by the secret council of God's will" (Calvin's Institutes II, chapter xxii, page 11) and "...their doom was fixed from all eternity and nothing in them could transfer them to a contrary class..." (Calvin's Institutes III, chapter iii, page 4).

"...Not all men are created with similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is either predestined either to life or death" (Calvin's Institutes III, chapter xxiii).

Why do you think God doomed some?
Like Pharaoh, God knew who would be immutable, and always reject Him.
And, God will use some of these reprobates as integral parts of His plan for history to unfold as He desires, like with Pharaoh.

The real key is?
How was God in the very beginning able to create every soul without knowing how that soul would choose concerning God?

They key to be found in Jesus Christ, whom through all things created were to be created!

 

[Blain]

Why do you think God doomed some?
Like Pharaoh, God knew who would be immutable, and always reject Him.
And, God will use some of these reprobates as integral parts of His plan for history to unfold as He desires, like with Pharaoh.

The real key is?
How was God in the very beginning able to create every soul without knowing how that soul would choose concerning God?

They key to be found in Jesus Christ, whom through all things created were to be created!

Jesus is the key that is the thing the whole argument of election boils down to him and him alone the focus is on preordained when the focus should instead be Jesus

 

[Genez]

Jesus is the key that is the thing the whole argument of election boils down to him and him alone the focus is on preordained when the focus should instead be Jesus

The key is this....

In the Gospels, Jesus-the Son of God, volunteered to let go of his right to omniscience and omnipotence.
He stepped down from the function of Deity, and chose to remain in function as a man.

Since He has two natures - fully human, and fully God?
He was able to agree not to cling to His powers of Deity and became as a sinless man in power.

All His power came from the Holy Spirit. Not His own deity!
All His thinking for action came from the Father. Not His own omniscience!

Philippians 2:6-8​

​

Who {Christ}, though He eternally existed in the essence of God,​

He did not think equalities (plural) with God a gain to be seized {means to violently take} and held,​

but emptied himself by becoming in the likeness of a man.​

But He Himself deprived Himself of the proper function of deity​

by becoming obedient to the point of death,​

that is, death on a cross.​

​

 

[Cranberry]

So who fits men for destruction?

Apostle Paul in the epistle of Romans 9.

 

[Genez]

So who fits men for destruction?

God assigns certain angels to act as tailors.