WHY man is unable to choose Jesus and the Gospel

[montana123]

So how Satan who is spirit able to sin in heaven? And why won't humans be able to sin in heaven in our spirit form.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

God made the angels perfect but He gave them a choice and some angels chose to rebel.

The angels cannot be redeemed for they are one component so when they sinned there was no place to put off the sin, and they tainted their whole being.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

People are flesh and soul and all sin resides in the flesh so when the flesh is put off they will not sin.

So when they go to be with Jesus they cannot sin for they will only go by the ways of the Spirit.

People can be saved because they reside in the flesh so if they are saved and put off the flesh they put off the sin.

At the new earth, the New Jerusalem, the angels, and people will not remember anything prior to that and will feel like they always been there and nowhere else so they will not know about sin, and rebellion, and will not be sad for those that were not believers.

At the New Jerusalem you will not even remember the people you knew who were saved for to know them is to remember the earth, but the former shall not be remembered, nor come to mind.

 

[Cranberry]

Well I mean sinners aren’t righteous so I’m not sure how this relates to sinners flocking to Jesus because of his message about “ forgivness of sins “

People who think they are righteous don’t need a message about sinners being forgiven and repenting of thier sins , sinners need that message of forgiveness of thier sins

Jesus is God come to us calling us to himself brother

I agree. God calling us to himself. As sinners no one understands. Which is what 1st Corinthians 2 tells us.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Come on man, the text says "the Lord opened her heart", no matter how the Lord does this it doesn't change the truth that the Lord did it. For some reason you feel when we give God ALL credit and ALL glory for our salvation that we are somehow saying we didn't make any choses, or that we deny that we have a will of our own. We are not. What I am saying is that God gets ALL credit for the choice you made and ALL glory. That NONE of it at all belongs to us. I do believe that God saved me the way He did to really nail this point down for me personally, it's also a reason I address this topic with the passion I do.

I made the choice you speak of, I was in church and heard the gospel, then an alter call was given and I responded, with all my heart I repeated the prayer and was declared saved there in front of everyone, told I could write down the date and hang my hat on the fact I was saved, was also baptized a few weeks later as well. But guess what? I was NOT saved, I was a false convert. I didn't know it then of course and thought I was a Christian 100%However.....

Years later I hit the hardest trial of my life in the form of a motorcycle wreak that took all function from my right (and dominant) arm. For 2 solid years I walked around with my head down defeated and wishing for nothing but death. I couldn't go 5 minutes without thinking about killing myself, and couldn't control it. All that I could talk about was how much I hated my situation to the point I couldn't stand to hear myself talk about it either and was starting to just stop saying anything that wasn't a direct answer to someone speaking to me.
This also exposed my fake faith. At this point I thought I was a Christian and what I found was it wasn't helping anything at all. So while I didn't get mad at God or Jesus, I found them useless and turned from them. I just went with hopelessness. After 2 years of this I got to a point that it was all just too much and I couldn't handle it anymore. Even though I wanted to die SO bad and had an EASY way to do it with my right arm having absolutely no feeling in it at all, I could literally hammer a stake through it and not feel anything, so cutting my wrist wouldn't have even made me twitch when I could cut the whole arm off without feeling it. I would run all the justification through my head like a checklist, my wife can find someone more able to love and take care of her, my job could replace me no problem, even my father will get over it eventually (was a lie, he wouldn't have), but I'd get to my two sons and knew that no one would love them and take care of them the way I do, so I was stuck here. I don't want that to sound noble at all, it was not. I hated the fact I was "stuck here".

So the day I didn't need to write down to remember, 9-29-13, was coming to a close and I was home alone for the first time in I don't know how long, but this was when everything came to a head. I had just carried everything too long and couldn't bare the weight any longer. When I hit my knees I wasn't making a decision or choice. If I EVER believed in God before, I did not in this moment. When I hit my knees I was not praying or calling to God to "save me now", to be honest God wasn't even a thought in my head when I hit my knees. I hit them crying out "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore , I can't do this anymore, World you win and I lose. I QUIT!!!"

That was it, I then pick my blubbering tail up off the floor, dried myself off, and went to bed.

It was the next day on my work lunchbreak that it hit me and hit me hard. I realized that after two years of nonstop uncontrollable suicidal thoughts, "I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT KILLING MYSELF ALL DAY!!!!"
I KNEW 2 things then and there, #1 whatever this was, it was God. #2 Jesus was His Son. For there my hunger for His word took hold and He lead me strait to John, by chapter 3 I was at the reception desk telling a sister "I think I was born again", and was. I was spiritually resurrected that day and reconnected to Hi Spirit.

I wanted to share this to show you why I give God ALL credit and can keep none for myself. While I understand your argument and even why you make it, I even agree up to a point, I just see too much credit being taken for you and that belongs to God. If I would have been saved that first time, when "I" made the choice, I'd probably been right beside you arguing the same exact thing. However.....
God saved me in a way that I could not take any credit for it even if I wanted to. I had no clue what was even going on that night when He granted me repentance. So I say, even to the person that responds to the alter call and is saved then and there in truth, that God gets ALL the glory for that as well. Even for "your choice", God gets ALL glory,

“Come on man, the text says "the Lord opened her heart"

Yeah who accomplished the gospel and sent it to all people for salvation ? God right all glory to the lord now we’re supposed to hear him and believe …..

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: ( that’s the foundation of the gospel and what draws people to Jesus the message of his death and resurrection )

) and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭

you act as of the gospel isn’t capable of saving sinners when they here and believe it …:

Or even worse tbat of someone believes this and acts upon it

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they are somehow “ not trusting Gods work and way of saving us and trying to save themselves and take Gods glory away “

But hearing and accepting what Jesus said will save us is what he said to do and be saved…..

Jesus glory is because of the gospel when he laid his life down for us if that’s not enough to touch someone’s heart they are in a bad position

our place is to believe the truth we can also believe lies humans believe things they hear and buy into commmit to the gospel in tbe world

 

[Jimbone]

“Come on man, the text says "the Lord opened her heart"

Yeah who accomplished the gospel and sent it to all people for salvation ? God right all glory to the lord now we’re supposed to hear him and believe …..

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: ( that’s the foundation of the gospel and what draws people to Jesus the message of his death and resurrection )

) and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭

you act as of the gospel isn’t capable of saving sinners when they here and believe it …:

Or even worse tbat of someone believes this and acts upon it

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they are somehow “ not trusting Gods work and way of saving us and trying to save themselves and take Gods glory away “

But hearing and accepting what Jesus said will save us is what he said to do and be saved…..

Jesus glory is because of the gospel when he laid his life down for us if that’s not enough to touch someone’s heart they are in a bad position

our place is to believe the truth we can also believe lies humans believe things they hear and buy into commmit to the gospel in tbe world

This is the perfect comment to make my point, nevermind you didn't even touch the point of my heart felt and completely honest post.
You said "you act as of the gospel isn’t capable of saving sinners when they here(hear) and believe it".
No I don't, and I don't believe that. That is ALL you telling me how I feel inside about something with absolutely nothing but your opinion to back it up. Show me where I've ever said the gospel isn't capable of saving us. This is just something you came up with, not me.

You follow that with "Or even worse tbat of someone believes this and acts upon it".

I don't even know what you're saying here, but if you can't show me where I said the first part, then this is just meaningless.

You: "our place is to believe the truth"

It's impossible to know the truth, in truth, before He opens our eyes to it. So just to be clear here, you are arguing that we have to do something to be saved, that we in fact do have a reason to boast, right? You are arguing that it's not 100% God that saves us. Please answer this question and don't ignore it like everything else I ask that you can't answer. You're 100% saying that we play a part in our own salvation. Because if this is not what you are arguing for, then you are a very poor debtor, because that is what you're fighting for in my head. That you DO have a reason to boast and a little of that glory belongs to you. That's what you are arguing for. That's Satanic in my view, arguing for self aggrandizement.

If you can't humble you're self and recognize it's ALL Him just like He says, then I have to wonder if you know the same God that saved me.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This is the perfect comment to make my point, nevermind you didn't even touch the point of my heart felt and completely honest post.
You said "you act as of the gospel isn’t capable of saving sinners when they here(hear) and believe it".
No I don't, and I don't believe that. That is ALL you telling me how I feel inside about something with absolutely nothing but your opinion to back it up. Show me where I've ever said the gospel isn't capable of saving us. This is just something you came up with, not me.

You follow that with "Or even worse tbat of someone believes this and acts upon it".

I don't even know what you're saying here, but if you can't show me where I said the first part, then this is just meaningless.

You: "our place is to believe the truth"

It's impossible to know the truth, in truth, before He opens our eyes to it. So just to be clear here, you are arguing that we have to do something to be saved, that we in fact do have a reason to boast, right? You are arguing that it's not 100% God that saves us. Please answer this question and don't ignore it like everything else I ask that you can't answer. You're 100% saying that we play a part in our own salvation. Because if this is not what you are arguing for, then you are a very poor debtor, because that is what you're fighting for in my head. That you DO have a reason to boast and a little of that glory belongs to you. That's what you are arguing for. That's Satanic in my view, arguing for self aggrandizement.

If you can't humble you're self and recognize it's ALL Him just like He says, then I have to wonder if you know the same God that saved me.

yeah listwn .i try to be patient in general , but if you guys constantly attack people call them false . insult thier mothers and upbringing ect because they dont agree with your view of undeniable grace and preordination and man having no choice ect ect eventually thier ears become a little dull of hearing and they sort of lose interest in what they the person or folks who engagev that way i mean . might have to add to your thinking .....


when you then begin to tell them to humble themself it loses a bit of value because you have already shown to them that they dont want to bear that type of fruit

 

[Blain]

yeah listwn .i try to be patient in general , but if you guys constantly attack people call them false . insult thier mothers and upbringing ect because they dont agree with your view of undeniable grace and preordination and man having no choice ect ect eventually thier ears become a little dull of hearing and they sort of lose interest in what they the person or folks who engagev that way i mean . might have to add to your thinking .....


when you then begin to tell them to humble themself it loses a bit of value because you have already shown to them that they dont want to bear that type of fruit

Wow has all that been going on in this thread?

 

[jacko]

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

God made the angels perfect but He gave them a choice and some angels chose to rebel.

The angels cannot be redeemed for they are one component so when they sinned there was no place to put off the sin, and they tainted their whole being.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

People are flesh and soul and all sin resides in the flesh so when the flesh is put off they will not sin.

So when they go to be with Jesus they cannot sin for they will only go by the ways of the Spirit.

People can be saved because they reside in the flesh so if they are saved and put off the flesh they put off the sin.

At the new earth, the New Jerusalem, the angels, and people will not remember anything prior to that and will feel like they always been there and nowhere else so they will not know about sin, and rebellion, and will not be sad for those that were not believers.

At the New Jerusalem you will not even remember the people you knew who were saved for to know them is to remember the earth, but the former shall not be remembered, nor come to mind.

will man have free will in heaven?

 

[Jimbone]

Wow has all that been going on in this thread?

Yes Blain it has. And I was very happy to see your name again, seems like it has been a while. I'd ,much rather catch up with a brother than bicker with no real point, (talking about myself and no one else) because it starts off just wanting to glorify God and testify of His awesome power in our lives. There doesn't even need to be a "debate topic" present, just simply testifying here will get you labeled something you've never claimed to be, then this whole belief system that person has built up in their own minds is applied to you in whole, and then that false idea of you is deconstructed, attacked and argued against while anything you ask is ignored and everything you say is nothing to them and you end up their strawman and that's it. I can't lie it is hard not to interact with for me because the main core of the debate comes down to salvation, the part man plays in it, and who gets the glory for it.

My view is God draws us in, God gives us our measure of faith, God grants us repentance, and it's God who resurrects our dead spirits and reconciles them to Himself. Salvation is 100% God and 0% man. I believe that this is the case no matter how that persons personal rebirth plays out. No matter if it's a man that hears the gospel and immediately hits his knees in repentance and is born again right then and there in truth, the Muslim with no Christians around him that Jesus comes to them in a dream and they're born again, or the addict in a jail cell that after 40 years of MAJOR addiction is made new overnight, it is always 100% God 0% man.

They will not clearly lay out what they believe this to be first of all, but they believe that salvation requires us to make the choice for Jesus. They believe this choice is on us and completely necessary to be saved. That we do get some glory from this choice. This is the major sticking point for me. I think the bible is very clear who ALL the glory belongs to for salvation and also goes into great detail of how capable men are of saving themselves. We couldn't disagree more and I'm firm in my belief it is 100% God and 0% man.

As far as how much credit we get for "choosing" Jesus, I have a very personal connection to because of how He saved me. While I agree we have a will, and I absolutely believe we have choice and that choice matters, it play a part of course, but I believe God gets all the credit when I "choose" Him. (speaking generally here)

As you know, in my testimony when "I chose" and went up to repeat the prayer with all my heart, I was not saved. Yet when God granted me truth repentance and I hit my knees seeing how "great" my way truly was, and I turned from that and quit at a time I felt I didn't even believe in God anymore, and was born again by His POWER and made all new overnight, I was saved. So when I did choose I was not saved, yet when He saved me it was a miracle everyone around me took notice of.

This is why I make it so important a point in my conversations, but can't deny I feel I am not glorifying Jesus name doing it anymore. I want to spend my time doing things that glorify Jesus and it's becoming more and more clear to me that this isn't doing that. That's the breakdown from my perspective on this discussion so far, but it is really awesome to see you again. How have you been?

 

[Blain]

Yes Blain it has. And I was very happy to see your name again, seems like it has been a while. I'd ,much rather catch up with a brother than bicker with no real point, (talking about myself and no one else) because it starts off just wanting to glorify God and testify of His awesome power in our lives. There doesn't even need to be a "debate topic" present, just simply testifying here will get you labeled something you've never claimed to be, then this whole belief system that person has built up in their own minds is applied to you in whole, and then that false idea of you is deconstructed, attacked and argued against while anything you ask is ignored and everything you say is nothing to them and you end up their strawman and that's it. I can't lie it is hard not to interact with for me because the main core of the debate comes down to salvation, the part man plays in it, and who gets the glory for it.

My view is God draws us in, God gives us our measure of faith, God grants us repentance, and it's God who resurrects our dead spirits and reconciles them to Himself. Salvation is 100% God and 0% man. I believe that this is the case no matter how that persons personal rebirth plays out. No matter if it's a man that hears the gospel and immediately hits his knees in repentance and is born again right then and there in truth, the Muslim with no Christians around him that Jesus comes to them in a dream and they're born again, or the addict in a jail cell that after 40 years of MAJOR addiction is made new overnight, it is always 100% God 0% man.

They will not clearly lay out what they believe this to be first of all, but they believe that salvation requires us to make the choice for Jesus. They believe this choice is on us and completely necessary to be saved. That we do get some glory from this choice. This is the major sticking point for me. I think the bible is very clear who ALL the glory belongs to for salvation and also goes into great detail of how capable men are of saving themselves. We couldn't disagree more and I'm firm in my belief it is 100% God and 0% man.

As far as how much credit we get for "choosing" Jesus, I have a very personal connection to because of how He saved me. While I agree we have a will, and I absolutely believe we have choice and that choice matters, it play a part of course, but I believe God gets all the credit when I "choose" Him. (speaking generally here)

As you know, in my testimony when "I chose" and went up to repeat the prayer with all my heart, I was not saved. Yet when God granted me truth repentance and I hit my knees seeing how "great" my way truly was, and I turned from that and quit at a time I felt I didn't even believe in God anymore, and was born again by His POWER and made all new overnight, I was saved. So when I did choose I was not saved, yet when He saved me it was a miracle everyone around me took notice of.

This is why I make it so important a point in my conversations, but can't deny I feel I am not glorifying Jesus name doing it anymore. I want to spend my time doing things that glorify Jesus and it's becoming more and more clear to me that this isn't doing that. That's the breakdown from my perspective on this discussion so far, but it is really awesome to see you again. How have you been?

I see things have not gotten better around here since my absence I am dissapointed in whoever has been doing all this to you and I know full well what that is like it seems to me the love of God is very lacking. I am doing much better now but until recently things had been very bad for almost two years I was struggling to survive starving sick and abandoned by everyone in my life on top of the demons appearing and attacking me I ended up dying in the er for two whole minutes.

But I am better now my health is back and I am full of hope and the joy of the Lord, now all I want to do is spread that joy and bring others closer to God I have no interest in bickering insulting or crude words otherwise I am here for one reason and one reason only to be a soark that ignights the fire in the hearts of everyone who would listen.

I am so happy to see you again and don't bother with those who clearly are not here to give glory to God or to build edify and strengthen the body of Christ it will only tear down your spirit

 

[Jimbone]

I see things have not gotten better around here since my absence I am dissapointed in whoever has been doing all this to you and I know full well what that is like it seems to me the love of God is very lacking. I am doing much better now but until recently things had been very bad for almost two years I was struggling to survive starving sick and abandoned by everyone in my life on top of the demons appearing and attacking me I ended up dying in the er for two whole minutes.

But I am better now my health is back and I am full of hope and the joy of the Lord, now all I want to do is spread that joy and bring others closer to God I have no interest in bickering insulting or crude words otherwise I am here for one reason and one reason only to be a soark that ignights the fire in the hearts of everyone who would listen.

I am so happy to see you again and don't bother with those who clearly are not here to give glory to God or to build edify and strengthen the body of Christ it will only tear down your spirit

Well then I'm happy I can share this with you, but just seeing you here again has made me feel like trying harder to keep myself out of fruitless endeavors and conversations. I am very sorry to hear things have been so tough lately for you and am very glad to hear they're seeming to be getting better. It's really great seeing you here again and please hit me up any time. I'll be praying for you and your family, have a blessed day brother.

 

[vassal]

will man have free will in heaven?

Yes always

 

[Blain]

Well then I'm happy I can share this with you, but just seeing you here again has made me feel like trying harder to keep myself out of fruitless endeavors and conversations. I am very sorry to hear things have been so tough lately for you and am very glad to hear they're seeming to be getting better. It's really great seeing you here again and please hit me up any time. I'll be praying for you and your family, have a blessed day brother.

Iy is always a blessing to see you and I am glad just by being here the spirit moves in you that made my heart jump inside me thank you

 

[Blain]

will man have free will in heaven?

I think heaven operates differently than here free will will not be a concern as we will be in new bodies apart from this flesh so free will the ability to choose the ability to sin none of that will be an issue we will be to pure and holy for such useless things.

There is even a section in heaven where we will be praising God day and night with a joy you cannot even begin to fathom it is going to be so amazing so brilliant and I just cannot wait

 

[homwardbound]

From Matthew 13
13This is why I speak to them in parables: ‘Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.’ 14 In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled: ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15For this people’s heart has grown callous; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.’

Interesting perplexity, seeing when God said in Genesis, time to guard the tree of life, if anyone eats from it, then they will gain like eternal (as evil) my conjecture. No born again as new, until the risen Christ is given one by God Father of risen Son Jesus, at least me, I can only speak for me, what is done for me and others as well, I can not tell others to do to get or be this or that to be new. That is nothing but a fight of flesh. All I can say is Christ said it is finished (John 19:30) new life is in the rise Christ, the death had to happen first
Genesis 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

That had to be stopped from happening, then we see all those years of failure of mankind ever since, trying and not ever doing it perfect, until Christ came and did it in our place once for us all to ask God Father for new life the risen Life, I see, to be dead to flesh daily, (Not of self), I can't do it just willing, if I can, then Christ came here to earth in Vain at least for me if I think, "I" can, as many I see now are taught to do to get and none from the view given me now, none can. That is why he came to die first before he could give new life to anyone, Without the one time death willing death, we could not ever get saved freely given new in the risen Life of Son, for me anyways, not that I got it, I do not got it, I get it, and trust it and am amazed over it
Woe is me Isaiah 6:1-7
Thanks for your posts again, it causes me to hear and trust even deeper to God only, not self or anyone else less and less as each day comes and goes all over again.

 

[Magenta]

You: "our place is to believe the truth"

It's impossible to know the truth, in truth, before He opens our eyes to it.

This seems to be a sticking point, because with the heart of the natural man, which is made of stone and turned against God, being hostile toward Him and unable to understand the gospel message which is as foolishness to him... without a change of heart which circumcision accomplishes, giving a heart which is enabled so that the person may love God... it is heart circumcision which enables man which some then twist and misrepresent into being forced or having belief handed to the person, as we have seen examples of as they trip all over themselves misrepresenting what is being said...

 

[Melach]

where we disagree is I don’t believe that he gives one individual the ability to belief but not the other
‬‬

this part of your message is assuming grace must be given to all equally. God doesnt need to give anyone grace. but praise His Holy name that He does give it to some, even though we dont deserve it.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

this part of your message is assuming grace must be given to all equally. God doesnt need to give anyone grace. but praise His Holy name that He does give it to some, even though we dont deserve it.

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭

 

[Jimbone]

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭

So that's your problem. You don't think God has the right to damn any of us to hell. I can understand your problem with this, but I still think you're only willing to see it in one narrow dogmatic way and wont allow God and the whole situation to be "bigger" than your small narrow view. This is also why you constantly and consistently apply the wrong beliefs to others without ever truly listening to them. But the truth is God doesn't have to choose anyone at all to go to hell. That's where every single one of us would go if He didn't save us. So you view of "God picks who goes to hell" is flawed from the jump. If God did that then He did it by letting Adam and Eve fail.

Like I said before, the biggest disagreement we have is perspective, but you can't keep yourself from applying the strawman of your own invention onto me no matter how clearly I tell you I do not believe what you say I do. It's honestly baffling to me. However I would like to say that of the group who have been pushing this tactic so hard for so long, you are the only one I can carry on a conversation with. I know we don't see eye to eye, and that we speak strait forward to each other, but I do see it as a debate between brothers. I don't know if you even think me being saved as a possibility, from some of the things I've read here, I know many of your side say we aren't saved.

I also know that I can say something this plain and easy to understand that completely destroys what you just illustrated as something we believe and you will not address it. You think we believe that God picks who goes to Hell and who doesn't when we are all going to Hell. So instead of taking the time to think outside your own self to see how someone might look at it like this differently than you, you just retreat and condemn. Truth is God is awesome for saving any of us from the certain doom we faced, but you will just ignore it, not giving me the respect of hearing me out and answering what I say, will start talking about a different aspect and throwing text at me without ever getting any deeper and addressing the truth.

 

[Jimbone]

Dang, I've been waiting for a response to my last comment here. Did I shut the whole thread down? 38 hours and counting.